This is probably griping so bear with me. I'm reaching a point of high frustration.<P>I’m curious to see if anyone else has had experiences even close to mine and what I can learn from it. I am now separated 21 months. My husband has been in an affair with a subordinate from work for an unclear amount of time prior to separation, in other words around two years. When he left, we had just had our second child two months earlier and had moved into our dream home four months earlier.<P>At the time of separation and for the months that followed, my husband was clearly depressed. He literally went for months without seeing the children. After a few months of Plan A, I spent the next 5 in Plan B. My husband gained about 50 pounds during that time, dropped all friends and relatives, and was clearly miserable. I wrote him a few simple letters and sent cards during Plan B and he never responded.<P>I grew guilty over the lack of interaction between my husband and the kids and left Plan B a little more than a year ago. I have been doing an incredible Plan A ever since. There have been huge changes in my husband’s demeanor and attitude. He now is actively involved with the kids, helps out around the house, is very respectful towards me, talks to my friends when he runs across them with me, and is clearly comfortable in my home. I would estimate that he spends at least 10 – 15 hours per week with the kids and me. He helps himself to the food in my refrigerator, snoozes on my couch, invites himself over to watch movies and play Nintendo, suggests swimming and cycling trips, and acts like he’s a member of the family. This is happening nearly every weekend. He seems happy as a clam – perky and up every time I see him. He clearly loves his life just the way it is.<P>Yet, he remains emotionally detached from me and is continuing his affair. On the few occasions I dare to ask him what’s going on (about once every 3 – 4 months we'll have a ten minute discussion), he tells me the affair is continuing and he wants a divorce. He either won’t or can’t tell me what, if anything, I’m doing wrong. Friday was our 15th anniversary. We sat together at an awards celebration at our son’s school in the morning. I gave him an anniversary card. He said “thank you” and also mumbled under his breath “oh well”. Certainly nothing close to “happy anniversary” or anything at all to acknowledge the day. I spent the evening at a baseball season-ending party with him where we all had a great time, and again, the day was not acknowledged in any way. He will not openly talk to me about “unsafe” subjects, show any kind of affection or interest in me sexually, seldom uses my name (it is increasing, though), often leaves without a good-bye, and I never get so much as a hug from him.<P>Yet he showed up early for a swim meet the next day, helped me set up and watched the kids while I did my jobs. He talked excitedly to me one-on-one for nearly the entire five hours of the meet. One of the coaches asked him where he lived and right in front of me, he told him my address. He spent about five hours per week with the baseball coaches since February and never let on that we’re separated. On Sunday, he showed up at my house two hours early for Father’s Day brunch, invited himself over after the brunch, and stayed with us until I left to take my own father to dinner that night. I had invited his father over on Monday night to do a celebration for him, my husband found out about it, invited himself over, and had a blast at the dinner and watching the Laker’s game. He brought personal presents and was very loving to FIL, who he has been mostly upset with during this separation since the inlaws have taken “my side” and since FIL is “structured and analytical”, which reminds him of me.<P>I have been tempted to say at many times that things are working and I should just keep going, but each time I do a status check with him the same “it’s hopeless” words pop out of his mouth and he says he wants a divorce. THIS IS GOING ON TWO YEARS NOW. It is clear to me that he won’t follow-through on a divorce unless I agree to it and keep his relationship with the family strong. The way I see it, I’m meeting the emotional needs of family commitment, recreational companionship, domestic support (I completely take care of the kids), and conversation, and his OW/subordinate meets sexual fulfillment, affection, admiration, and probably another kind of conversation (work gossip, which he loves). He would like the existing arrangement indefinitely. If I were in his shoes, I’d probably agree.<P>I’ve been on this board since Dec. ’98 and can’t think of a single case like mine. Usually, when a spouse separates to go to an OW, they divorce the betrayed. Often they spew venom and try to demonize the betrayed to justify the affair. Once they’re passed that, they usually acknowledge the love of the OW, tell the betrayed the marriage is over, and stop hanging around. In other words, eventually they make a decision and live with the consequences of that decision. In my situation, my husband seems to like me, certainly respects me, and wants to spend as much time as possible around me. Yet the affair continues and he has no intention of bringing closure to either relationship. In fact, he seems to think his life is just perfect as it is right now. He certainly isn’t taking any action to change it. Any thoughts and guidance for me?<BR>

Sounds to me like your Plan B wasn't really Plan B. My understanding of Plan B is that it's a no-contact separation designed to force the wayward spouse to have all his needs met by the OP. If you were making contact, you weren't in Plan B.<P>I hope someone else with better first-hand experience kicks in here.

D&C:<P>The Plan B was done under Steve Harley's guidance. Six weeks into it, I sent a Plan B follow-up letter, which according to Steve is routine. Other than that, I sent him simple cards on holidays and birthdays. The rest was no contact (no phone, no in person).<P>I think I'll probably have to go to Plan B, but I dread it. I've worked my tail off to get him to interact with our toddler and participate in our son's academic and recreational life, and it has finally worked. I'm afraid he'll drop the kids again once I stop making all the arrangements and stop requesting his help. But I am coming to accept that I'm not responsible for their relationship. I just hate to do that to the kids.<BR>

Hello Distressed,<P>You know I'm only 2 mos into a separation, with D day 8 mos ago. But I have to tell you, that if I continue to treat my H with Plan A, I know he'd be very much like your H and sit on the fence for a very long time, maybe even indefinitley.<P>The only chance I have is if OW gets tired of waiting and putting up with H's ambivalence regarding a commitment to her. Then eventually she would start LBing my H. She's pretty aggresively demanding and pushy.<P>Yours is a tough one. How is your H's OW holding up, do you see signs of impatience on her part?<P>Do you perceive any LB activity coming from her which reflects in his attitude?<P>Jo<P><P>------------------<BR>Josie_Res@Hotmail.com<P>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"

Hi Distressed -<P>I have been thinking of you and am glad that you posted.....Hi and how are you and the kids doing (besides this mess, of course!!!)?<P>I can't figure out my own life, but I have a thought on yours!!! LOL!!!<P>How about starting to show him what divorce means....<P>Does he ever do one on one with ONLY the kids or are you always there?<P>How about letting him experience single fatherhood?<P>Set it up like a custody time type of thing....you know - "H can you take the kids cuz I have an appointment". (start slowly and then for longer amounts of time.)<P>He might just have an "aha" moment when he realizes that you DON'T come with custody!!!<P>From what you've said, it sounds like you are ALL together when he sees the kids......what if YOU weren't there?<P>Would it hit home that you may be doing what he is?<P>Don't know, but it seems that he just doesn't want the complete responsibility or committment for any scenario...not family man, not husband and not even betrayer!!!!<P>Whatcha think? You won't have to go to Plan B and the kids will continue to have the advantage of a relationship that's healthier with Mom and Dad still in the mix rather than a non-speaking environment.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P><BR>

Resilient:<P>The little I know about the OW is she's a subordinate, divorced, older than my husband, and very different from him culturally (he's an MBA VP, she's a plant supervisor with a high school education, he was born in the UK and she was born in Mexico, she has grown children out of the house and we have young ones, she shares a rental condo with another woman in a lousy area and he lived in a 4000 square foot home with me - he's now in a one bedroom apt.). He will not share any information about her with me - what I know comes from snooping.<P>I do know that she has never met his parents (who are local) and finally met his brother from out of town last month during a visit. I am convinced she demanded the meeting with him. I can't imagine him risking rocking the boat with that behavior. She has met our 7 year-old two times but was not identified as my husband's love interest (my son told me about it). Again, this is over a two year time period.<P>So, my guess is she's starting to push a little and asking more questions. I figure he's telling her lies, the biggest one probably being that we're in the process of getting divorced. At some point, one would figure she'd catch on, but she might not even care about legitimizing their relationship. She nailed herself the big boss with his big salary, and maybe that's enough. I have no way to know.<P>I'd appreciate any other thoughts you have on this. Thank.<BR>

I agree with what has already been posted here. I'd make the transition from "family" to "single dad" more obvious to him. If you are taking care of everything and he is living it up, snacking, sleeping, and enjoying himself at your house, why would he need to make a change? If he is faced with a father schedule every other weekend, diapers, meals, and real responsibility in his small apartment, things are sure to look different! <P>Maybe he doesn't think his marriage is really threatened. What would happen if he thought you were going on with your life? That might jolt him into action. By not being available during his visits, he will have to wonder what you are up to that you can't spend your time with him.<P>If that doesn't work, I'd go to a true plan B.

Some of this is really hard. I have experience with other approaches and on certain parts, like visitation with our toddler, I have conflicting emotions.<P>Let me start with the premise of visitation/custody. He takes our son every other weekend and one night during the week. The nights are on their own at his apartment. More and more of the weekend days are as a family. Also, many time we'll all have dinner together on the during-the-week overnight. This is really a change towards more interaction with me over time. Prior to about 3 or 4 months ago, he was taking our son at the door and returning him to the door. I was not involved. I don't think this part of the scenario has much impact one way or the other.<P>But, here's the hard part. He doesn't take our little girl for overnights at all. I don't know whether I want him to. She's still in diapers, knows him now but still, she's so little for this kind of bouncing around. The thing is, by taking only our son, they can live it up during the visits. The toddler would be a burden to them, which is why I think he chooses not to take her. I struggle with the two of them on a daily basis but the only time he does is when he watches them when I travel (at my house). To be honest, I'm afraid about the precedent of having him take her overnight. I'm torn on this one and I know that some of it is my own selfishness. I have talked to him two times about taking her, he says he's interested in doing it, but of course doesn't follow through. I can't see me pushing him to do this, which is what it would take.<P>There are two big changes that have occurred really since March. The first is the much higher degree of interaction between us - the achievement of "safe and comfortable" with the family, which Steve Harley said I needed to achieve. The second big change is his happiness - he is much more visibly content, perky, excited, and giving since this interaction is increased. I am convinced they are related. Still, he does nothing towards making any kind of decision.<P>I have now seen a full range with him - from depressed to elated, also from no interaction with me to high interaction with me. None of this seems to have any effect on him making a decision. I'm not trying to be negative, it's just that my experience hasn't borne out the merits of any particular approach. I have tried Last Resort, Plan B, and lots of Plan A. They all flop. <P>Sheba, my dear friend, I'm doing reasonably well and the kids are doing great. They love this heightened level of interaction, especially my son. My daughter now knows daddy and refers to him that way. My son is proud to see us enter together for his school plays and events. He is happy and well adjusted. This togetherness is a big part of the reason why.<P>Your observation about his lack of commitment is right on the mark. As near as I can see, he has only one clearly defined commitment and it's to his job. He is not committed to the marriage, to being a father, to being a betrayer, to being a son, nothing else right now. He floats with the tides, makes no significant decisions on anything, and just coasts along. His brother visited his apartment a month ago (the first family member there in a year). He said it looked like a dormitory, clearly transitional. Nothing on the walls, nothing decorative, garage sale furniture. He's been there since Sept. '98! He's in a transition home but he's not transitioning.<P>I don't think I can go to a pure Plan B again for a variety of reasons. But I can do a significant pull back and tell him I won't be his friend or include him in our family until OW is out of the picture. I think this is where it's headed. I just can't see me going on like this indefinitely (although he certainly could).<P>I have to run but will write more later. Thanks everyone.<P>

I may disagree with everyone here, but to me the most important issue is maintaining his interactions with the kids. Maybe it shouldn't be your job to facilitate his relationship with the children, but if you don't do it, it probably won't happen, and the kids would be the ones to suffer. In the long run, it really doesn't matter whether he is taking advantage of you, whether he is having his cake and eating it too - what really matters is whether he is being a father to the children, and whether the children are happy. <P>You mentioned that other betrayers seem to make a decision. I am not so sure that it is the betrayer who is making the decision. In cases where the OW pushes, and the betrayer is too much of a conflict avoider to resist, the betrayer appears to make the decision to divorce. I am amazed that your H's OW allows your H to spend that much time with you. My H rarely spends more than a few minutes at our house, and it makes no difference whether I am here or not, so it is not just that he might be avoiding me. It appears that he is allowed only so much time to spend with the kids, and he gets very tense when he is "late". <P>I personally think your daughter is too young to spend the night away from you. <P>I am sure that it must be no fun to think about going on as you are indefinitely, but to me it seems greatly preferable to him having less interaction with the kids. Perhaps I see this differently than some others because having my H be a nurturing father is far and away my primary emotional need, even if it isn't on Harley's list. <P>I think you have done a great job of Plan A'ing. Unfortunately, it seems like affairs may linger on longest when the OW is not assertive, and is willing to take what she can get. How many hours can he be spending with her, other than at work, if he is spending all that time with you?<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited June 22, 2000).]

Wow! These are interesting and provocative replies. Let me take a shot at this.<P>As a general comment, part of my "confusion" has to do with my stated perception that the plans have been largely ineffective. Aside from Nellie, no one's really challenged me about whether what I'm doing is working or not. I come today with frustration, but with complete honesty, a big part of me feels that what I am doing is working. It's just not the part that's speaking when I started this thread.<P>Here's the rub. After killing myself for a year with this Plan A, I have actually seen the major changes in my husband that I've desired. He is considerate (affair aside), helpful, available, an active father, happy, gaining confidence/esteem, reducing time with the OW, and becoming once again engaged with other friends and family members. These are NOT trivial changes and I do think they came directly from my efforts.<P>BUT, what is not different is his emotional relationship towards me. THERE IS NONE. He is dead to me emotionally. Here is the part that's killing me. How can it be that he now feels completely safe and comfortable around me, enjoys my company and all the benefits it brings, yet can't even say "happy anniversary" or give me a hug sometimes? How can he spend an evening laughing with me about people in his office or other parts of the family, or tell me stories about the horrible infidelity others do, yet not feel a connection to me, or any responsibility? How can he not be remorseful or even cognizant of the pain he's inflicted?<P>This is the part that is driving me nuts. I have a fear alright. My fear is that my Plan A was incredibly successful, fixed his life, fixed the kids lives, all through my hard work, yet I get NOTHING for me. That as Nellie points out, I have to spend the rest of my life self-sacrificing for the benefit of the kids and even my husband, and get nothing back.<P>The point is, I can't do it for life. I think many of us women, especially those of us who have actually done a pretty decent long-term Plan A, are self-sacrificing to our families by nature. But there is a limit and I do believe in the concept called givers snap. I have seen it happen to others and when it does, there is no going back. This is the central tenet behind the POJA - that BOTH PARTIES have to get their needs met or someone builds resentment that will be eventually manifest. Ultimately, there is no one-sided Plan A for life. There is Plan A for life, but only in a reciprocating, loving relationship. Otherwise it's self-sacrificing until the taker emerges.<P>Let me take it even further. I'm also afraid that my behavior and esteem-building actions towards my husband may give him the courage and self-confidence to make his life great without me. Now, if I go to Plan B again, he might keep going with great relationships with the kids, continue relationships with my friends, go to all the sporting events, become responsible for the school events, and stay active with his own family. Maybe he's recovered from this ordeal and I'm the one stuck in the past. All that's missing is cutting me completely out of his life, which could be an easy next step. After all, divorcing me doesn't mean he has to lose everything, as he seemed to fear at the beginning. Since he's no longered depressed, he might be able to make all this happen and get rid of me too. All because of my hard work. CAN YOU SEE HOW CONFUSED I AM! I even fear success.<P>Enough of this. Popeye, I am sure he doesn't feel the marriage is threatened. How could he? I've been kissing up to him for the last year. All I do is give him acceptance and patience. He knows that I love him and want to reconcile. He knows that I want us to go to counseling. I don't pressure him, but my sentiments are clear. Turning around and doing a divorce myself is probably the only 180 I haven't tried. I'm not about to either (too risky).<P>Nellie, I hear you and you've spoken my mantra for the last year. Ultimately, as I said before, I don't think this is sustainable. I am not happy with my life this way and it is reflected in my behavior in all environments, and that includes with the kids. It cannot go on indefinitely.<P>Regarding the OW, I tend to think this is the flip of your situation. My husband holds the cards here, he has the power. The OW admires him and I suspect is glad to get whatever she can. She must be some piece of work to be with a man under these circumstances. I've started to keep a log of his known whereabouts. If he is spending time with her, it's mostly overnights. He's with us during the weekend days and often has evening events with us during the week. I don't have a clue what goes on there, but one month ago when I last asked him, he said that he's very happy and they're very close. Hmmm. One would think the odds would be stacked up against this relationship but we're going on two years now.<P>I appreciate everyone's thought provoking feedback. Time to do a little more analysis.<BR>

Hi Distressed -<P>OK, I see what you are saying now....<P>I didn't realize that H still took your son.....for some reason I thought it was mostly him coming there.<P>Forget what I said before then...lol!!<P>What is happening to your thoughts is nothing more than the "Fear Monster"!!<BR>Gee, I thought he spent most of his time here with me!!!! LOL!!!<P>Let's look at the positives first, OK?<P>H has come around sooooo much with a relationship with the children - this is number one importance and I know that you agree.<P>Although you have Plan A'd well and consistantly for about a year, it is really only a few months that you have truly "seen" a big difference with his behavior and attitude. Before that there were probably "moments" when he was good, rather than any lengths of time. <BR>Would that be correct?<P>What that shows is he is slowly becoming friends with you again.....that's a VERY good thing!!!! <P>He is not caught up to you in his brain, though....remember the compartmentalizing they often do? He stopped being Husband.....so now it's like starting another relationship for him. He wants to be friends, have fun, and see where it goes. Sorta like dating but dating the "family" and not you the individual yet!!!<P>Notice I said "yet"......<P>Give him time. He is still in affair don't forget.....but I have a feeling that with all the time spent with you guys, this OW isn't going to last much longer. <P>While I have been in this, I can honestly say that "time" was never a factor for me.....except with it running out with the divorce. If it takes longer than some "average" statistic, well - then it does!! The results of putting the time and effort in are well worth it, and I mean that even if he doesn't get to the romantic stuff, he will have a good hold on his life and a good relationship with his kids and also a good repoir with you.<P>Isn't it better to look to a future, whether together or separate, with the H you are seeing "grow" now or that guy he was a year ago? <P>So, you are getting results, no flops here!!!!!<P>As far as the "Fear Monster"....perfectly normal!!!! Especially for us "thinker/analizer" types!!!! Sometimes, I swear we could make ourselves die of fright with all the stuff we think of!!!! LOL!!!<P>When the fears start taking over to where I start to question myself and get some "what about me" thoughts going on, I just take a step back, a deep breath and ask myself what my goal is. Then I keep heading towards the goal....<P>Nothing is guaranteed.....anything could happen!! Did any of us think that this affair stuff would ever do this to our lives? Heck no.....but if we had dwelt in "fears" about it, we would not have gotten married, had kids, given and received all that we have!! WE wouldn't be who we are!!!<P>If you can, try to think of it that for some reason this is happening.....you have grown, become so much more knowledgeable and stronger, learned a lot about marriage, love, life, etc. <P>Whichever way things go in the future, you are in a much better position than you were before. So are your kids and so is H.<P>Let him date you all, give him the time he needs.....keep your sights on the goal and flow with it.....Forget time, it is a mere drop in the bucket compared to all the years before this mess and all the years that could follow!!!!<P>Where you going off to in such an all-fire hurry, anyhow? LOL!!!<P>I sometimes (when the fear gets really bad....) picture my H paralized...he wouldn't be "giving me" all that much then would he? Would I give him less because of it? I don't think so....I mean I might use an electronic or two!! LOL!!!!! <P>Patience.....you ARE getting results!!<P>You just have a lunkheaded mopey-dope like me!!!!! LOLOL!!!<P>Don't think so much!!!! haha!! (it stinks though, doesn't it!!!)<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba <P>PS - OOOOOh, forgot the best help through this for you.....when H comes back from the UFO trip he's on - you can POJA your way into not having to "think" for at least a couple years!!! Could you imagine not having to do that? I wonder if our brains would be OK with the inactivity!!! LOL!!<BR>

Me again....one thing I forgot....<P>H is not thinking as much as we are - there isn't the strategizing going on that you fear. <P>He uses the "divorce" words to shut you up when you press him about the dreaded "us"!!!! They don't like that!!!<P>He isn't ready yet is all......<P>I am a bit worried about your statement of being unhappy and it effecting all aspects of life.....<P>Granted you don't have a recommitment yet, but isn't his current behavior a heck of a lot better than the last couple of years? Is it the impatience getting to you and causing the unhappiness? Or is it the fear and projections? <P>Most of this is perspective Distressed. I know it is frustrating and you just want a decision.....but people do not make very good decisions when confused and tentative about things. He needs to go slow and keep reassuring himself that things are better and not an illusion which would just disappear. <P>Things are going to happen the way they are meant to. All you can do is act according to your goals.....not develop counterattack scenarios. He is not that deep!!!! <P>More HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR>

Distressed:<P>Now I know were my H is when he leaves here. He's at your house. Just kidding of course, but he really is quite a bit like your H.<P>This is the trouble I've always seen with Plan A. It seems like a sanctioned affair to me...he has the dutiful wife doing all she can to win him back while also having the OW to worship him on the side. After two years he has probably realized that both of you are going to put up with this....so he'll just settle in and enjoy it as long as possible. <P>I know this is how my H feels...he'll just do it and everyone will get use to it....and he won't have to make a decision one way or the other. That's how he is dealing with everything right now. My H is also in control of the situation. The OW has threatened, manipulated and harranged him to get divorced and he has never waivered in five years. I don't know what keeps her holding on (although she has been married twice during this time and is in and out).<P>He still comes over for lunch every day and to shower and change his clothes and he would be here more often if I'd let him. And he sees nothing wrong in this!!! I struggle with the same questions you are, but I don't have any answers either.<P>I think though that your H progress is toward you and you have no choice but to continue. If things keep proceeding as they have been eventually she will start LB and he will turn to you for his emotional needs. You will just have to have patience...but since you've been doing such a good job for two years..I think you can do it. <P>I'll be keeping an eye on you to see how it works out. Maybe I can get some pointers from you.<P>Buffy<BR>

Hi Distressed,<P> Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Harley expects everyone to keep going with Plan A "if they won't give up the OP". I agree with you, why should he give her up?..... he has the best of two worlds, and all of his needs met. <P> In most of the Harley books I've read he advises Plan A for a limited time usually something like 6mos. and then a strict Plan B.....which I know is extremely hard (I've been there). <P> Too me you sound like you are at the end of your rope and although you don't want to hurt the kids , I'm not sure if that can be avoided. I struggled with that myself but when I thought of what lesson I was giving my children on how a W should be treated, it made my decisions a little easier.<P> Good luck to you Distressed, have you thought of counseling with Steve H. again? I really think he could help you .....LU

Distressed,<BR>I'd like to just shake your H and beat him about the head and shoulders ({Whew}, sorry about the temper tantrum).<P>My thoughts also run along the "disrupt his happy routine" line. I had a hard time doing this, when my H was at the house, I'd be there as well because I wanted to see him, it made me feel like my needs for companionship & conversation were at least being a little met.<P>The husband I have today is so different--for the better! than the one I had at the beginning of the year--and for the last couple years. I keep trying to thing what made the difference.<P>1. If I had not done a long Plan A, we would not be where we are.<BR>2. I probably should have gone Plan B, but instead filed for divorce.<BR>3. I went on with my life. Stopped being at the house all the time when he was, we set up regular nights for him to take the children.<BR>4. My H realized he wanted both me and his family and needed to run his life according to God's will.<P>Quite honestly, I don't know why we aren't divorced today, but instead are living together and both working for the marriage. We both think if either of us falters, the marriage is over--not exactly "no divorce no matter what". I think of it sometimes as working without a net.<P>You can't make your H get to this point. I never could. He just turned the corner and got off the fence.<P>Since Steve H was guiding you, you might try him again. My #3 was at my counselor's suggestion.<P>I wish the best for you.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hi Distressed:<P>I see you are getting some great responses on your post. I am sorry you are feeling so confused but you should know that you do not come across that way. You sound so well thought out and together.<P>Maybe I am being cynical here - and maybe it is because I am in plan B and want company ! - but I tend to agree most with Lor and others who say the happy routine needs to be shaken up here. Mostly because it is not a happy routine for you! I do know what you mean about the sadness affecting all areas of your life (did you ever look into those anti-depressants by the way) and I disagree with Sheba. (OK - it could be because her relentlessly sunny and optimistic and self-sacrificing posts make me feel jealous and inadequate and full of self-doubt but that's another story..and by the way - nothing personal Sheba - I know you struggle too!!). <P>But honestly, there is nothing wrong with changing your approach - you hit it on the head. Plan A can be for life between two loving and engaged partners. Otherwise it is just a life of self-sacrifice until that taker comes out big time (often in a huge, ugly nasty divorce I might add).<P>So - you have good success since March. Keep it up through the summer with all the fun activities and family stuff (I wouldn't change the kid visits unless he pushes for this at this point). This is a nod to Sheba and to the value of a good plan A. By September you will have a solid 6 months of plan A under your belt and his. Almost like you were "starting over" with an initial plan A. Then you can evaluate going to plan B in the fall. All this assumes if and only if you can handle his emotional distance during this time - I know you can because I know how awesomely strong you are. And as I have said before - timeframes always help.<P>And really - the worst case scenario you paint is not really so bad. Does it matter in the long run if it is your self-esteem building that helps him move on in a positive way? (I know you do not want this - neither do I.) But think of it this way - at the very least - he will leave the marriage thinking well of you and will maintain the positive relationship with the kids, and you will not have the guilt and doubt and regret that comes from having "kicked him when he was down" and wondering if you contributed to his becoming a sad and broken creature. <P>And lets face it, if you are one of the main sources of his self-esteem, if that does not come from inside him (and I can assure you this is the case right now!) he WILL miss you when you pull back. And he will be in a much better position to know WHAT exactly he is missing than he was in your earlier plan B - when he blamed your marriage and relationship for all the depression/problems. Because his most recent memory will be this awesomely successful plan A you have done!<P>I just want you to know and remember you are not trapped in this endless plan A - much as it feels that way at times. But I do agree you will feel better, will have more closure if you will, if you keep it up a few more months. And I say that knowing full well how tough it is....<P>Best to you my friend,<BR>Starpony

Thank you all for the great replies. I'll try to answer but forgive me for mistakes. I have three seven year-old boys sleeping over tonight.<P>First, I'll start with Sheba, who has somehow been incredibly wise through every time she's posted to me. You are correct, fear predominates inside me. At this stage, I think it's a fear of hope. The cycle of perceiving improvements, believing they're real, and then getting them dashed time and time again, is incredibly destructive. It has now happened to me on at least four separate occasions. I am afraid to hope that what I'm seeing actually represents something positive regarding the marriage. It is clear that I am seeing a major change and it is positive for both the children and my husband. I'm just too scared to interpret it as anything more.<P>You are also correct that I would much rather see this version of my husband than the beast from a year ago. Never mind that, this one is a decent father. This is a major accomplishment and not to be understated. I just want more than this. My taker is emerging : ). And I'm sure you're also hitting the nail on the head regarding his strategizing (or lack thereof). Just like getting into the affair, the avoidance, and the unwillingness to look at himself, there really is no plan in place. He just does what he feels like doing based mostly on emotion, not logic. It's completely different from the approach I use which is why I have such trouble understanding it. He just doesn't have a plan.<P>Buffy, I do think I have choices but probably concur with your major point - I'm seeing changes and should continue FOR AWHILE. But not too long. My husband has shown himself to be as big a conflict avoider as is humanly possible. I do not think he will address this situation unless he has to. It's true that I could just wait for the OW to end things, but really, that could take forever. Just considering the fact that he's her boss, she's got an incentive to keep things going that's pretty strong. I can easily see this situation turning into one of those 5 - 10 year affairs you periodically hear about.<P>Lu, I have recently resumed with Steve Harley and it helps a bit. I usually come here when I'm bummed, so the MB forum isn't seeing a representative view of my demeanor. Still, this is no way to live. I spend so much effort and energy trying to please my husband and take care of the kids that there's little left for me. As I said before, I am not happy living this way. I want a real partner in my life that shares with me at an intimate, emotional level. I do not have someone like that now and I need it.<P>It may be unavoidable to hurt the kids, but I'm going to do everything possible to minimize it. I am concerned about the lessons my son is learning. Some are good (like witnessing my commitment to the marriage), and some are horrible. I do not want him to think that this is the way husband's behave in a marriage. It's horrible role-modeling.<P>Lor, you have great wisdom and experience to offer. It is so true, I would not be in this game without Plan A. I am SURE of it. All the original stated reasons for the affair are gone and my husband knows it (the few he communicated, anyway). He has no complaints with me today. The affair is running on it's own steam - the addiction. It has to come to an end before he gives me something back. I know that intellectually, but am fed up with it emotionally. My logical side sees their's as a completely unsustainable relationship for the many reasons I've listed. Really, I think she was deliberately selected because he sees her as inferior, which lets him be superior (a problem in the marriage where we were too competitive). In other words, I think the primary reason he's with her is because she doesn't threaten him intellectually, socially, educationally, and in so many ways. What kind of a basis is that for a relationship? Might as well get a dog.<P>Starpony, I don't know where I would be without you. I hope you're doing well this week. I think the comments from this thread have confirmed the direction I was less convincingly headed before. I need to tough out a few more months of this and then pull back. The chips will fall however they must, but I can't do Plan A for life. I haven't started the anti-depressants and frankly, my mood is inconsistent. I don't think I'm really depressed overall. What I am is tired of living in limbo. So when I go to something that's Plan B like, I'm going to have to plan and execute extremely well to try to keep the improvements with the kids going. It can't be like before where my husband dropped out of all of our lives. I can't live with that result either. Thank you for your incredible support.<P>I really appreciate this input and it has made me feel much more secure about the steps I'm taking. I do think I can do a great Plan A for a few more months, as long as no major curveballs get thrown in. Then I'll be ready to take my chances.<P>

Distressed,<P>Your situation is very similar to mine. I too am tired of plan A. I am tired of giving and getting nothing in return emotionally. My h too is around all the time but has had an apt for 10 months. As for ow, he says relationship is over but I'm not sure. It was verrrry long term and says he was/is in love with her. My profile is still there if you want to look at it.<P>This is where I am now. H starts new job tomorrow. Far away from ow but close to our home. I am going to do the best possible plan A, almost like starting over. Hopefully the distance between him and ow (they worked in same building) and my hopefully awesome plan a will get him off the fence. I'm not sure how long I will do this but like you I really don't want a divorce. <P>I can empathize with you completely. Having them around doing fun family things but getting no commitment and no emotional fulfillment is gut wrenching. It hurts.<P>Just my two cents to let you know that you are not the only one with a long term fence sitter!<P>