This doesn't really require any response, but I just need to get some feelings out, as this is my "journal", too. Looks like I'm back on my "no eating, stress diet" (not a good way to lose weight).<P>I feel like I'm falling head first back into that hole that I struggled so hard to dig myself out of. But, I can't do anything about it. I'm at that point where I can't quit talking to OM, but I know I shouldn't be. And old habits die hard, so we fall back into the same "slots" we were in before. I still care so deeply for him, and I don't want to be w/out him in my life. I'm already dying to see him, and I've just talked to him a few times. I do love him in a different way that I love my H. It's not something I can just get over. I want so badly to be w/him, as in spend time w/him, etc. But, I also want to stay married to my H. I know, too much cake gives you a tummy ache and makes you sick (see Just Learning, I do pay attention!). <P>It is almost like an addiction, because once contact starts again, I can't get enough. Just like that alcoholic who thinks he can have "just one drink." I know I'm doing this to myself, but I don't know which consequence (or outcome) I want to face. I could just walk away from my H, let him get on w/his life, tear my family apart, make my kids go back & forth, etc. But I DON'T want that. Yet, to stay away from the OM is next to impossible. It's literally painful to not be w/OM. I know JL, you said I may not get a choice if I continue down this path. I do not want to self-destruct, I know I'm coming so close to doing that. <P>If I do end it completely, for good w/OM, how do I know I'm not going to do this again in a few months? The longest we've gone w/out contact was about 10 mos. while I was pregnant and had baby, etc. Then, after all that, all this crap started on and off for months. What will finally be the turning point for me, to finally kick me in the a**. I've already had a few wake up calls, yet I seem to find myself back in this situation again. I thought the last time, I was done for good, but I was wrong. I don't know how I'm ever going to get through this. <P>I was wrong, I do need some feedback. Tamis, I especially want to hear from you, but I know you're going on vacation. So, maybe I can catch you when you get back.<P>Please no flames or lectures, I'm just getting this off my chest. Also, please don't tell me it's easy to just give up OM and walk away, because it's not.

No judgment, no lectures here. I just want to tell you I know how you feel. I have gone through this same cycle with OM for close to 10 years. Yes, it feels like an addiction...like he has this invisible power to hypnotize me back. I UNDERSTAND YOU!! I DO.....Please know that I am praying for you. Try to think with your head and not your heart. I know this is so easy to say and nearly impossible to do....If OM called me right now, I would be back in a state of utter confusion and not even desire to be near my husband....OM does this to me every time...all I need to trigger this is the sound of his voice. Please try and stay strong....I am fighting with you. Although we don't seem to have the power in and of ourselves; there is a power within in that can get the victory over this "illusion" every time......I am hurting with you....

Thank you, Mathteacher. It does hurt, I know you know how I feel. It's so sad, too. <P>Thank you for being here for me!!!

Mathteacher....<BR>"10 Years"....You have got to be kidding me!<BR>Please say it isn't so! <P>aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh<P>Momma....man....nothing I can say will help.<BR>I am in the same place. Funny how there is a group of us starting to "congregate" here. <P>Ten years....man....what am I going to do?<P>aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

momma,<P>If you read your post, you will notice one thing. All of the "I"'s, no "we"'s. Momma there are no "I"'s in team. You and your H have to become a team for you to beat this. You know it is hard, you know it is an addiction. How many addicts kick the habit, by themselves? Not many! You need help. <P>Hopefully, this board can provide some of it, but you need more help than that, prayer, God, med's (maybe), and a spouse that will stand by you.<P>I am not flaming you, but you won't get anywhere by yourself. That is why the OM is so seductive. You are by yourself and you don't want to be.<P>Think about it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Since this is an addiction maybe you need to have a 'sponsor" like they do in AA someone to be accountable to when you feel like contact OM you contact your sponsor instead.<P>Not a flame,just something to think about. You say your choice is your H but your actions say otherwise. You know actions speak louder than words. Maybe you have not really chosen your H.<P>Also by continuing contact you are jeopardizing your marriage yet that doesn't seem to faze you. Just a thought, but maybe you want the choice to be made for you.<P>Anyway, there is saying that goes something like "The two worst things in life are getting what you want and not getting what you want." Just something to think about.

Momma,<P>It is good you come here like your "journal". No lectures or judgement for me either.<P>I know you feel like you have gone all the way back to step 1, but I don't think you have. Your feelings may make you think so, but you have moved forward over the last months in your thinking. Keep your actions in line with your right thinking - feelings we don't really have any control over. <P>I'm sorry the OM called you - that is what started it again. I know if I heard the OMs voice or caught a glimpse of him I would be right back there again too. Your posts and those of Tamis and mathteacher and others struggling like this are convincing me all the more that I absolutely cannot afford any contact either. I see more and more the importance of that.<P>I am fighting with you too, hurting with you, understanding you. Keep coming back to this forum, you are not alone.<P>------------------<BR>"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

(((((((momma)))))))<P>You know I understand how painful it is. But it's nothing compared to the pain you will feel when your family is torn apart. And look at how much pain you are in right now? It hurts to have that fence-post sticking into your butt! (I have quite a fresh wound from it. I know how much it hurts!)<P>It seems to me that you were doing OK until he contacted you. You need to make it clear to him how much turmoil that it's causing you when he contacts you. You need to let him know that it is just too painful to be 'friends' with him and that in order for you to live your life, he cannot contact you.<P>I know you want him to be part of your life. (Oh, how I know!) But I also know that if you really, seriously want to keep your family intact, you MUST find the strength to let go. <P>I really think you should talk to your H about it. Tell him that the OM contacted you and it has stirred some old feelings. Ask him to help you write the no-contact letter to the OM. I know you said that he hasn't been very supportive in the past, but if he sees that you really want to put the effort into saving your marriage, he will probably help you. And he's raising the OM's child. That sounds pretty supportive to me. <P>If you don't think that the OM will honor your request for no contact, change your phone number. Do whatever you have to to make it impossible for the OM to contact you.<P>I know it sounds really scary to even think about doing these things. (I'm still scared) But it's the only way to keep your family together. If that's your ultimate goal, then deal with a few months of heartache. The end result will be worth it. <P>If you don't do this, you could be facing a lifetime of the torment you are going through right now.<P>I'm praying for you. I pray you find the strength you already have within you to let go. You did it before. Just do it one more time. This time, write the letter and send it. <P>(((((((((momma)))))))))<P>PS. I'm sorry this came off sounding like a lecture. That wasn't my intention when I started writing it. Lord knows I'm in no position to be lecturing anyone. I just saw that the situation you are in now seems to be causing you quite a bit of pain as it is. And from what I've been reading here, the no-contact thing is really the only way to get past this. Darn, it's turning into a lecture again. I'll stop now.<P>((((((((((momma)))))))))<p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited June 23, 2000).]

Momma,<P>Despite how "good" you say it feels, I hear a lot of pain.<P>If passion was is only something you "bump into", I would agree with you that you are in a hopeless situation. But I believe that any two people who are doing whatever it takes to create it with each other can do so by following Harley's method.<P>I was trying to say on the Hi wings thread that I came to the point that we go all out trying to find this in our marriage or we split.<P>If there is still a vacuum in your marriage, I understand the pull to the OM would continue. I don't see how you can go on like this. You must somehow wake up your h to the fact that you and he need to build up love deposits, quick.<P>We were lucky, the OW lives far away (although there are phones and 'puters everywhere). But as I've said on other threads, I understood that our only chance was for me to help him through withdrawal and work hard to deposit love units pronto!<P>From what you've said, I don't think he gets it! So how can you help him get it?<P>As you see, no flames here. But I think the only chance to get over the wrong love is to create a new, right one. And on that, I'm talking from experience even though I'm on the other side of this thing.<P>Momma, I really hear your pain. I haven't been there, but I watched my best friend (my h)go through it, and I HELPED him. I listened, held him accountable, but mostly I set out to have him fall in-love with ME again.<P>So to answer your question in my looong way, the only way you can feel you will not do this again if you are falling IN-LOVE WITH YOUR H. If you have unmet needs, you stay vulnerable.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

I can tell you I have not had contact with a woman I had an EA with for 18 years. She emailed me out of the blue because she found out my situation. I wanted to contact her so bad I could taste it and fortunately I had two good friends talk me out of it. I do not think you ever get over it and you cannot make any contact if you want your marriage.<P>Love and prayers!!<P>J W

I am drawn to the posts of the betrayers, particularly EA's, because I am the betrayed and am trying so hard to understand.<P>When confronted, my H retreated into a very deep fantasy that he has yet to be able to articulate and because I had no great clue as to what was going on, and had not read MB info yet.....(and also him saying he was "trapped"----I set him free) He has been living on his own since Feb.<P>Things were going well for a while, then OP was worried he would come back to me so she left her H and children part time (but plays being married to keep her H if she doesn't get my H)<P>They work very long hours doing very intense work, and became workaholics the past year due to starting a new practice against competition from previous partners....kind of a :"war"<P>Anyway, I just wanted to offer some of the other side to help you ask your S for help if you are worried about slipping.<P>My life has been ripped out from under me. Op closed off my H's office to me and our 3 kids to protect their "world". Right after a 10 day mission trip that she orchestrated, she told the office staff he was leaving me due to long term marital problems.<P>I still have yet to hear anything from my H re: these problems. Up until the day he left for the trip he told me he loved me...our childrens last memory of us is being in the kitchen hugging and kissing.<P>Now, mind you, I am not taking myself out of the picture....I can see the "issues" clearly., but now due to this addiction I have an 11 year old daugher who is in counseling, her grades have dropped, she dropped out of many activities and although her dad finally went to counseling with her, after she requested, he is still walled off to her pain!!!! (said the counselor)<P>Our son 9, doens't want to go with his dad. He will and do fine but comes home and cries. He wants me to marry someone who won't leave.... My H just last summer told him he would never leave....what happened???<P>We have a five year old D who thinks her dad left because she wet the bed. She asks him almost every time they talk why he left...he never answers.<P>His pain and confusion is very obvious. He is in counseling.....he has very little memory of the marraige or of how wonderful he was as a dad...the entire community who is aware of what is happening is astonished (because of how devoted of a dad and H he seemed) and appalled. He's lost the respect of his family and colleagues and will most likely lose the respect of his children.<P>He is unable to talk about anything...most likely because he and she work together every day.....therefore contact....his counselor and the marraige counselor we went to once told him he would not feel a connection to me and the kids while he was obsessed with the EA with OP.<P>I finally retreated...plan B...with carte blanche visitation...which he now is increasing as the weeks go by....and that makes me happy.<P>But when I read all of the replies here it makes me wonder why I even bother waiting. From the outside, his relatioonship with Op seems built on sand....but I love him enough to let him go and be with her...I'vve even told him so.....I told him I would never tarnish his children's view of him....<P>He didn't want to do it...he doesn't want a divorse...he said he didn't want to marry her...but when he talks about her or says her name it sounds "magical" or "fantastical"...He has a hard time articulating what their relationhip is or where he wants it to go....<P>Do all of you believe that if you were to actually have the relationship or marraige with the OP that it would stay as magical???<P>At any rate, my H now knows that I am not trapping him...he is free to make his decision.......I love him and always have, but I couldn't live with him knowing that he always would want OP!!!! (she';s kindof a control freak anyway)<P>I hope I don't upset anyone with this post...I am feeling sad and lonely in planB..I do hear your pain and really feel for you all going through this. <P>I want you to know as the BS, I do love my H...I would love him if he gained 50lbs, lost all his teeth, his job, became very ill, OR if he needed to be with OP!!!!!

For me it isn't so much that I would always want OP and am just going back to the marriage because it is the right thing to do. I would very much love to experience in-love feelings with my husband. That is my hope, especially since I believe that I must stay true to my marriage vows. I also desire a fulfilling and wonderful marriage and realize it will take a lot of work to get there. I would love my husband to be my best friend. Those are all hopes for the future.<P>Where I stand now those "in-love" feelings are not yet there. And they haven't been there for quite a long time. If I understand Harley right, those feelings develop when our ENs are met. Since I was basically bankrupt in the EN department it is no wonder I didn't "feel" love. Along comes OP who meets all my top ENs with an intensity and fullness that I have NEVER experienced before with anyone, including my husband (not even in our dating years). The contrast was so great that I began to doubt whether my husband ever really loved me. I have many questions of "Why" for him and his reply often is "I don't know". Not always a very reassuring answer for me.<P>Well, the OP got deep into my heart and I into his. Yet, I know I cannot rightfully have my needs met by the OP and I must return to my husband. That is the action, but the feelings lag behind. Those feelings are what I (and I think the others) are sharing. I am trying very hard to maintain No Contact , even in the absence of in-love feelings. I will have to trust the feelings will come. In the meantime it is confusing, scary and painful.<P>To be honest, I cannot really identify with your husband's actions, even though I am also a betrayer. So, you may see some similarities, but I think there are probably also many differences and also different outcomes for each one of us. I am sorry for the great pain you are experiencing. I thank all the betrayed who allow us also a space on these forums, for we often need a place to go also for all that we are going through. It is just an all-around mess for everyone - isn't it? Sigh.<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 23, 2000).]

Ditto what Sifted said. <P>Except for me, I never doubted that my H loved me. But there was a definite disconnec tbetween us. There was not enough sharing - of time, of emotion, of anything. We withdrew from each other emotionally until the distance felt too great to reach across. <P>The OM entered my life and there was an immediate connection. The connection grew. There was a sharing of time, of emotion, ...<P>I felt love for the OM and I didn't for my H. It left me wondering if I could ever find a way to bridge that gap and feel the love for my H. I have decided to give it a try. He is a good man and it is definitely worth a try. <P>So I guess it comes back to sharing. Together we are making an effort to share time, share emotions, share everything. In time we will know if we were successful at bridging that gap or not. IF we are, then I don't think the OM will ever be a threat again. Until that happens, he is a very real threat. Even if the realtionship isn't ongoing. If he is on my mind and in my heart, it is difficult to share everything with my H. Pieces have been given to the OM. Hopefully, those pieces will be reclaimed. I think I'm on my way with that now. A painful process, but the reward will be worth it. IF my H and I can learn to share ourselves with each other in a way that will build the love. <P>In time we will know whether we can. <P>I must be making a tiny bit of progress. That sense of urgency I had not too long ago has dwindled. I don't feel like I'm running out of time anymore. For the first time, I feel like I can give this whatever time it takes to find out if the love between us can be built.

Truthseeker and Sifted...I confer with all that you've both expressed. <BR>It's unbelieveable how much we are share in terms of emotional pain and the letting go of the one who filled our emotional void. <P>How are "we" all doing with no contact? <BR>This has been an especially tough week, but I find so much inspiration here on this forum. <BR> <BR>

Momma...how are you doing? <BR>I haven't "seen" you on lately.<BR>Are you okay?<BR>You're on my heart today....<P>This has been a tough week, hasn't it? <BR>I would certainly die if OM contacted me. I know I would cave...<BR>Fortunately I haven't seen him since Monday.<BR>He told me he's afraid of us getting too close. So that gave me an opportunity to let go. He's right...we "can't" get too close...as in not at all. I thought I could be his friend, but I can't. <P>So I'm in that grieving process....hurting a lot today...and trying to separate my heart from his, once again. <P>Oh what a tangled web we weave, don't we?<P>Hey...have you read, "Torn Asunder"? It's another excellent book. It helped me in so many ways...but I'm obviously still in the process. <P>Hope you're having a good Saturday...<BR>

Hey momma, <P>Are you there? I checked back to see if you came back to this thread. I don't usually come here on weekends, but wanted to know if you're ok.<P>TS, I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, for a change. I am the betrayed, but I also am a woman who has long wandered if I could have those feelings with my h. Felt them somewhat when we dated, but it wasn't exactly that he was meeting my needs.<P>I believe Harley has given us tools we never had before, and it IS starting to happen for us.<P>Many ask why it is so much work? I think for us there was so much pain to work through. He neglected me and the kids before he started cheating two years. There are still self concept issues (OW 2 was 21 and he has been staring at young girls many times during our "recovery"). We are able to talk about all these things and I see him really trying to correct himself at the root of the problem.<P>I have no OM, but I too struggle with trying to find those feelings, and for me it has been on top of the hurt of his secret life for almost two years. He lived his fantasy with the 21 year old girl, lots of sex, no lbs. In that it's a bit backwards from what I hear y'all saying. I was his friend, the one he talked to about his problems at work, etc.<P>And it's not to say I'm not sexy too. It triggered me this morning when I was at the waterslide with all these moms with little kids. I told him since he loved to look around, look around here, he'd be hard pressed to find one who held a candle to me, but I don't want to compete with 18 year olds after bearing him two kids. I'm in good shape, but I can't look 18 again!<P>I know I got off here, but Sifted, I sure know what it's like to not have my h love me!<P>But TS is right, it's in sharing, learning new behavior. For us, LBs were not much of a problem (the only time he was mean was during the affair). But the other concepts of honestly sharing everything (especially our feelings), negotiating to POJA on all issues, and meeting top ENs have really changed the dynamics of our relationship.<P>The sparks are there more often, and I surprised myself in the "What I like about my h thread" that I've been feeling more passionate about him.<P>Hope my ramblings help someone. The painful part comes first. Bricks have to be torn down, before the new ones are laid. (Got that gem from Jennifer Harley). We started a new sweetness when we got through most of the "tearing down" or "peeling back".<P>It also helps to add fantasy to the marriage. 15 hrs/wk to have FUN, take trips, weekend outings, etc. We were having no fun together, really. It was ALL dealing with the hard stuff.<P><P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Momma,<P>10 years???????????<P>After 18 years and still have the feelings. that was in a reply..<P>GOSH ILL NEVER MAKE THAT! <P>Does this go away? you have to change the number or something. You can not let him pull you like this momma. I know what hell it is. Im in it again. I want the OM so bad... <P>prayers to you<BR>Renee<P>------------------<BR>We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!

Hi, Gals! Sorry I didn't reply here, I wrote a new post last night--No Contact letter?, please read. I have more to type, too!