Sifted,<P>You will not get the response NoMas does. Don't worry about that. If you read his response to me some weeks ago you will see the problem. NoMas doesn't want advice, nor does he consider advice useful. He stated that in his response.<P>He comes to vent as is his right. He posts to people, with good advice. However, most of his posts are vents, pure and simple with no desire to be helped. Many people, not just betrayed, want to help him, but he rejects them. So people get impatient with him.<P>I won't post to him again, unless it is to congratulate him for recovering his marriage and have said so to him. I am one of the posters that was very stern with him. He doesn't like that approach.<P>You on the other hand, do not have the same approach. You have come to learn, and have, it shows. It is always a pleasure to communicate with you. I think that many here feel the same way. Your advice is very good and you offer many thought provoking questions and ideas with the purpose of learning from them.<P>So don't be frightened by the response to NoMas, he hasn't figured out that people want to respond to someone in pain. But they get very frustrated when they are turned away as he just did to several posters.<P>Anyway, don't worry your response will not be the same.<P>God Bless You and God Bless NoMas,<P>JL

Well done, JL<P>I was thinking the exact same thing. I too have seen you, sifted, are here to learn and I have enjoyed interacting with you.

Okay guys a question...<P>Why are we so patient with our own spouses and not with NoMas?<P>We have said and read over and over again that the betrayer is in a fog and will not come out of it until he/she is good and ready. <P>Though my H has disclosed the A to me, thank God, he is not living here and isn't anywhere near ready to do so. Yeah, this is hard as hell, but we know, don't we, that this is his roller-coaster.<P>Maybe NoMas's wife is wiser than we think. Maybe she's read the books, done her homework and is preparing herself for the day that she will learn all. <P>That's what I had to do. I had to be ready to hear it, and luckily, I had educated myself pretty well before I heard it. Everything, everything became clear to me that night. I was ready , for the first time in two years to finally hear the truth, and my H was ready to tell me. We were just, for some reason...there.<P>I was the one that began pushing NoMas. Yes, it is frustrating to try to help someone who is not ready, but I've learned a lesson here. Just as the alcoholic or drug abuser is not ready till they hit rock bottom, neither is the betrayer. I have learned not to question the timing and motives of another. NoMas is a good person, in pain and stuck yes, but good and has worked hard to show those of us here that are betrayed how deep feeling for an OP can be. He has helped me in the past.<P>Let's lighten up and give him a break. Lets not alienate him so much that he doesn't feel comfortable here. I want to hear his success story when the time comes. We are not here to judge. <P>allison

Az,<P>Though I'm still looking for sifted on this thread, I believe an honest question deserves an honest answer.<P>He has been here a long time (so you didn't start pushing him, dear). He was here under a different name and met OW here at MB.<P>We would all like to see him and all of us become a success story. I don't want to repeat what JL said. And no one is being unkind IMHO, just trying to pry him off the fence, like setting a lamb free that is caught in barbed wire.

Good morning all,<P>Though I read this thread last night, it was late and I was not able to respond, but, I have been thinking quite a bit about it. <P>First, thank you for your kind words towards me. I don't know that they are so deserved, or would be so kind, if I were willing to show some of the vulnerability NoMas has.<P>I see this somewhat differently than you do, Just Learning. Perhaps because I have walked (and am walking) in NoMas' shoes. Going on inside of NoMas (and myself, as well as many betrayers here - especially those with a strong foundation of knowing what is right) is a horrendous tug-of-war - between the head (the thinking part that knows what is right) and the heart (the feeling part that includes strong feelings of desire for something you know you ultimately cannot have). Strangely, knowledge of the right thing to do doesn't take away the desire. Hence, this painful tug-of-war. <P>I don't think it is so much that NoMas doesn't want to listen to advice, or has no desire to be helped. I believe he does and has listened. Still, as I said, that doesn't take away this tug-of-war one goes through. Some of NoMas' posts were not so much for the purpose of hearing once again what he ought to do. They were simply peeling back what is in the heart and revealing the very real struggle, like a snapshot of a moment in time. At least that is how I read them.<P>In all of his very honest revealings of his struggle, I have not for a minute believed he didn't know what is right - or doubt he wouldn't ultimately follow that. In fact, he so much as told us that many times in his posts. He knew he had to give up the OW, he knew their worlds could not ever really be made one. But knowing that doesn't take away the painful letting go process - and that is what NoMas was showing us. His journey, his releasing of something he cannot have.<P>He has written and exposed what is in his heart and that makes one very vulnerable - a vulnerability I have not really been willing to risk here. NoMas has written from his heart, I have mainly written from my head (much safer). But that doesn't mean I don't have many of the same feelings and struggles as NoMas in my heart - I do. I am intimately acquainted with the struggle NoMas is in - many of his words could have been mine.<P>It seems to me many reacted to NoMas' posts, rather than responded (you mentioned that people are responding, JL, but I see it much more as reacting). That reaction is, in part, fueled by the very real and enormous hurt many are experiencing in their own personal lives. <P>It has been mentioned, that the intent is to help "pry him off the fence". I'm not sure anyone can do that - this is NoMas' journey. I think of it as a child who holds something tightly in his fist. You can grab that hand and pry open each finger yourself and take that thing away. But that is not the best way. If anything, it causes an inward rebellion within the child. The child, himself, must release that thing. And that process is going on inside himself, it is a very personal journey. As I said, I am intimately acquainted with that process. And for me, I knew inside that if anyone came along and did the prying for me, I would break. I was that fragile. That is why I did not post, but rather lurked for 4 months first. I could not bear to have anyone come and interfere with that process - that would have broken me.<P>The advice given to NoMas at times was good and needed. But there were other times he just needed a safe place to show the struggle of the heart - and this forum did not/could not provide that.

Sifted, you said it so well. I have been accused of not wanting to listen here as well. It wasn't that I didn't want to listen and learn. I did. That is why I kept coming back here. It's just that until I was ready to hear the good advice, I rebelled. I still do at times. I can only handle one small step at a time before I get overwhelmed. Then I slide back a few. After a while I dust myself off and start moving forward again. But I do see that NoMas must let go of his own accord, when he is ready. His writings of his struggle here have been an attempt to make himself ready.<P>When a child is learning to walk, you can't pick him up, put him on hiseet, say 'OK, now walk!' It won't work. He will do it when he's ready. Encouragement will help. But not pushing.

Sifted,<P>I hope I haven't offended you. I understand the pain even though it was second hand, if you remember, I was there for my h.<P>Yes, some will react. Not sure if you include me in that. I honestly am not speaking from my own pain. I am well on the way to healing.<P>Maybe I don't get what you and Az are saying about the journey. It seems the real journey begins when there are no more lies, "the truth shall set you free". When the couple is working together to change the old patterns. When they are helping each other.<P>In that sense it is very different from a drug addiction. Tamis said it went on for years because she didn't find the in-loveness in her own marriage.<P>We all know what is right, but is that enough?? I never thought my h would cheat on me, especially the way he did it. Jumping into bed on the first date. There was none of the tug-of-war of we can't "go all the way". Maybe he is just so honest, he realizes there really is no difference, he crossed the line the first time he went out.<P>I don't believe it is enough. My h is a man of integrity, very much so. Maybe that helped me heal better/faster. I never believed this defined who he is.<P>But Harley says a desire to do the right thing is not enough. The emotional needs are very real. I see NoMas torturing himself, not going through a process. Every time the no contact fails, the resolve gets weaker.<P>What do you want me to say to him? I've told him I sense his pain, I really do. But he is killing himself! I'm afraid I don't share your optimism that he will ultimately do what is right.<P>"The road to hell is paved with good intentions". If we yell out to him, get off that road, be honest with your wife and let her decide to work (or not) on the marriage, are we being hateful???<P>If she won't, he's a free man. But if she will, he could REALLY start an incredible journey.<P>I hope this is not too strong, but I had to explain where I'm coming from. I've stayed at MB mostly to try to help others, keep up friendships I've made, but I'm still here to learn too.

Schizzo,<P>You haven't offended me. <P>Getting to that point of speaking the whole truth is part of the journey. Releasing what you can't have is part of the journey. (Maybe we are thinking of journey in a different way - maybe for you it means "recovery", whereas I look at it as moving in the right direction, but maybe not what would yet be defined as recovery). For you (as the betrayed) the process started at the point where the truth was revealed and you both began on the journey of recovery. For a betrayer it starts further back - at releasing what you are holding. Maybe that is why the betrayed respond with "getting on with it" and not realizing that a betrayer, is in a way, getting on with it, by slowly opening the hand. Our starting line is much further back!<P>I know for myself, I let the OP (very gradually, but eventually very deeply) into my heart. There are no excuses, but I can tell you there were some very deep things inside me that he touched and I was afraid to death to let that go. I couldn't even bear to think of it, so I just didn't think too far ahead, probably because I knew I couldn't really make a future out of it. Last fall I was at the place where my fist was very tightly closed. Basically saying, I know I can't keep this, but I just can't let it go. Not yet, Lord. Sounds strange, I'm sure. It is so hard to describe. I have never been that rebellious or lacking such discipline in all my life. The slow opening of the fist (which is a willing, softening heart) is part of the journey. God asking gently, "will you release it". It took me quite some time to be able to do that. If you can ever separate this from the "infidelity" issue, you may see examples of that in your own life. Holding something you cannot have (how about all the releasing you have done over the years to follow your husband). Ultimately it is always about giving up (dying to self) to follow God - the way of the cross. I have just NEVER held anything so long and so tightly as this. EVER. And that process, if it had been rushed by others pushing me along, would have broken me. That is the only way I can describe.<P>You ask what you should say to him. Maybe nothing. Maybe, "so sorry to see you hurting so much today - praying you'll do the right thing". Maybe, "I can really see your pain. It is hard for me to see that. I just don't know what to say anymore". Or whatever. I can't really tell you. What do you tell anyone who is grieving.<P>I know he sounded absolutely desperate at times. Maybe that was very scary for some people. But because I have been there, I can see that desperation and yet not panic that all is lost. Keep remembering NoMas was sharing feelings (and he is a very vivid writer) and those come and go throughout the day. Underlying that, was his knowledge of what is right and what he knows he ultimately must do. That was evident in his posts also.<P>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 28, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 28, 2000).]

Sifted like wheat....<P>You are not going to like this analogy, but here goes anyways.... and I'm not doing this out of reaction, but rather the search for truth.<P>If your child could not "feel" the harm they are doing to their hands, and they were holding tight to a burning lump of coal, would you allow your child to continue to burn their hands? No.<P>Would you allow a friend to hold that coal while you watched them burning their hands? No.<P>Would you allow a "leader" (such as a president or your pastor) to hold a lump of coal that was burning? (Remember, something has happened so they don't feel...)<P>Well, Nomas, in my opinion - has lost sight of what is hurting him. It is a deception, the very thing that started this.<P>No mas did not communicate clearly on his thread what he wanted from us. All of us have been guilty of not communicating clearly. No biggy. But, I suspect, Nomas did not communicate clearly with his wife what his needs were. It left him vulnerable.<P>Vulnerability lead him into his first EA. Being vulnerable can be overcome - you need to find out what causes you to be vulnerable, and take appropriate steps to overcome this.<P>Nomas has been afraid to overwhelm his wife with his needs. He instead decided to be noble (or some say a martyr) and try and deal with his needs not being met by himself, rather than try and find a solution or an awareness within his wife to meet his needs.<P>We all get vulnerable.<P>But the real problem is when we have learned to hide our mistakes in a form of dishonesty, causing the problem to perpetuate. Rather than deal with the issue of not having needs met because we do not communicate them with our spouse, we cover up our mistakes, and try and learn how to live with our vulnerabilities. And we take the uphill battle.<P>Yes, this thread has twisted from its original intent, and my apologies for all of the offenses, this is not my intention.<P>My intention is to get us back on the road to marriage building, and sometimes that is hard.<P>

Well Just Learning, I've read a LOT of your stuff and you're usually so understanding and compassionate. I am kinda shocked that you wrote this, actually. Not like what I've ever read by you at all.<P>Ya, I think NoMas could use some stern advice sometimes, a wake up call even, because he seems stuck in his pain. But he IS in pain, and his pain is real. <BR> <BR>What bothers me about this post is that you have taken NoMas and put him in a spotlight, and compared him to another poster (siftedlikewheat). This causes dissention, Just Learning. That isn't what MB is about, is it? <P>I've read a lot of NoMas's stuff too. If I'm not mistaken, he DID tell his wife at the beginning of this affair and she didn't have the time or inclination to listen or work at the marriage. Can't really blame her either, since this is his second affair. I think she probably just turned him off and is trying her darndest to just live and ignore the pain. But basically, she ignored him too. Isn't that right, NoMas? He HAS been honest. It's just that now, when he's hurting most, he can't seem to go back to her and restate that he's still in love with the other woman. <P>Good luck to you NoMas, if you're still reading. And if you are, I give you bigtime credit because it's been pretty rough for you around here.<P>EB

trustntruth,<P>Your analogy of the coal is a good one. On the other hand, I'm not so convinced any of us have the right to be the one to take that coal away. Maybe that is God's job.<P>My point also was, good advice was given (like taking the coal away) to NoMas at certain times. Other times what he really needed was just a place to describe his struggle and pain - not a continuous prying at his hand. <P>energizer_bunny - I don't know if I've been compared to NoMas, but the whole thing makes me uncomfortable too. As I said in my first reply, the kind words are really undeserved, if only because I haven't shared as much of my struggle as NoMas has.<P>I agree with the other things you said also.

Tell me,<P>If a doctor can diagnose something, and make a prescription to help the body heal, would that be bad? <P>If it was determined that the root of infidelity is "miscommunication of needs" - wouldn't the prescription be to acquire communication skills to start fixing the problems from infidelity?<P>This is all I am saying. I am not saying that sifted or no mas is bad. All I am saying is that there is a deception going on, and we are so busy trying to protect ourselves from others and protecting others from ourselves, that we are not communicating honestly, nor truly seeking the truth - the cause of infidelity is not truth, it is deception.<P>

trustntruth,<P>But you all did give the prescription a few times. I think you know, as a woman, that we sometimes just want to express how we feel - without someone else thinking they always have to fix it. Sometimes stepping in with our advice becomes an interference. Sometimes our place is to listen, God's place is to work the truth in.

trustntruth,<P>NoMas DID communicate his needs and his wife ignored them! Does that make the affair "right"?? Of course not! <P>But to use your example, he knew he had a disease, he got the perscription, took the medication (told his wife) but the medication didn't work, and the disease remains. It doesn't even get slightly better. The longer his wife ignores HIS needs, and the more that the other woman meets those needs, the harder it is to pull away from the other woman toward his wife. <P>Look, you are a wife who has paid her dues and stuck by her man, at all costs. His wife hasn't. Had you NOT done that, your husband might be in the same exact place NoMas is in. That is NOT to say that the affair is in any way her "fault" but it is to say that she hasn't helped matters by burying her head in the sand. <P>Again, my point in my original post to this topic is to mention that when we say that so-and-so is good, and so-and-so is bad, that we set up a very bad situation for the population who posts here to feel a part of the whole. This is EXACTLY why there are cliques, and why some people are afraid to post their true feelings. Sifted also made a wonderful point about how she hasn't posted her every feeling, as NoMas has. Too dangerous. You can clearly see what happens when one dares to post their innermost feelings. As Just Learning has said, he won't post to NoMas again, because he isn't "listening" and that upsets him.

Wait a minute here.<P>I said, So and so is not bad and so and so is not bad. I said DECEPTION is bad. <P>I said that NoMas did not communicate completely with his wife.<P>Oh, yes, he told his wife about his EA AFTER THE AFFAIR, AND he told his wife about the mb affair AFTER the affair....<P>But, he also was concerned about his wife going to school and overloading her with his needs. He also recently miscommunicated what he wanted from MB posters.<P>Oh, is that bad? Is that good? Who cares if it is bad or good, the point is - it allows deception in, which is the root of infidelity.<P>His wife probably does not know HOW Nomas feels. He probably hasn't communicated that to her. He probably doesn't know how to honestly communicate well with his wife. She probably doesn't know how to meet his needs, or to communicate well with him. <P>They can restore their love in their marriage completely! They can learn! What is stopping them for learning? The only thing stopping them from learning is the knowledge that it is attainable, and finding a good teacher.<P>But, by protecting one another from each other, and by people here on MB, who are supposed to work towards MARRIAGE BUILDING instead embracing justification for not marriagebuilding, we are not helping anyone.<P>All I am saying is that there are different perspectives, and that and that this infidelity takes a lot out of you, this is true, but the entire point of this entire website is to rebuild marriages, and infidelity is an indirect symptom of deception.<P>The truth is, marriages can survive infidelity, you can become very very very happy with your spouse, and we can feel in love again, and do not need to get divorced to feel that way. <P>We can do this. Let's help each other get there.<BR>

trustntruth,<P>It wasn't you who said the so-and-so remark. I feel that Just Learning, by virtue of this post from the beginning, did that. He wanted siftedlikewheat to know that she is not like NoMas, and that she would be listened to because she is trying, whereas NoMas is not.<P>So that you understand me trustintruth, I've read your posts too, adn I have lots of respect for you and the work you've done to restore your marriage. This has never been a slam on you, so please forgive me if it seemed such.<P>EB

energizer_bunny,<P>I was just checking out your other posts since I haven't read much from you previously. You haven't posted very often, but I imagine you are here reading a lot. Thanks for coming out to help with this one. I appreciate it! Hope you are doing ok.

I don't think that JL intended to convey the message that so and so was bad. I think she tried to convey the message that she thought that sifted wouldn't get slammed because she thought sifted was trying to learn, where she thinks nomas isn't trying to learn.<P>"Trying to learn" perceptions are not the same as "so and so is bad". <P>Actually, because someone nods their head yes when you are talking to them doesn't mean that they understand what you are saying. It makes the person who is talking sometimes think they are being heard, but sometimes when the person who is supposed to be listening is shaking their head "yes", they are trying to get the talker to keep talking so maybe they can at somepoint understand what they are saying!<P>I can pick up a few words of Bosnian. When the speaker is speaking, I am busy nodding my head "yes", when I don't understand what is being said. I am trying to encourage the person to keep talking, because - I will understand part of what they are saying. After they are done talking, I will go back and ask them "is this what you said" with English and the few Bosnian words that I understand. It is how you learn to communicate with one another across language barriers.<P>Well, you can certainly see how difficult communication is on this thread - and we are all speaking the same language! We are even on the same topic! We even understand the same principles! <P>Mis-communication breeds conflict. It is the number one reason for misunderstandings, hurt feelings, discord, etc. <P>All of us, I don't know one person, who is able to communicate always perfectly. 1/2 of communication is talking, but the other half is listening.<P>We are each responsible for our half. Listening is the hardest part. Nomas needs to learn how to communicate - how to speak to his wife without worry of hurting her feelings, or appearing selfish, or all of those negative things. He needs to figure out it is OKAY to ask for what you want, before there is hurt feelings. <P>His wife needs to learn how to listen. <BR>These are teachable things! It takes practice, a willingness to learn, and a good teacher!<P>I want to take the coal out of nomas hand. I want to take the coal out of his wife's hand. I want to take the coal out of my hand. Out of husband's hand.<P>Yes, some of identifying it is coal is work for the Lord, this is true. But, like Guard used to say - when the Lord sent a helicoptor, we need to take the ride. The Lord gives us common sense, and wisdom and tools. God is good, and he will help also. <P>I'm not offended, EB.<BR>TnT

Siftedlikewheat,<P>Thank you for the welcome. Yes, I've posted a little bit, but for probably obvious reasons, do not feel particularly safe usually posting becuase of responses like NoMas gets. I have read a whole lot though around here.<P>trustintruth,<P>I'm glad you aren't offeneded because that would make me feel bad. I rarly post because I'm hurting enough and don't want to add ot it. I do respect you and wish you much love and happiness as you continue to repair your marriage.<P>EB<BR>

Man Oh Man!<P>You turn you head for a second and WOW! Folks the message was for Sifted not to worry as much as she posted she was worrying, because of how NoMas's thread was going.<P>It was not really about NoMas at all other than to point out there is a long history and his sharp response to some of his posters was not the first.<P>However, it was not a slam against NoMas and none was surely intended by me. The point was that Sifted would very likely get a different response and that she had/has little to fear.<P>Other than that, Ladies and Gentlemen, there was no deep meaning to the original post by me. NoMas will ultimately make his decisions and so will Sifted.<P>The amount of help received and the tone of the help depends on the mindset of the people involved in the discussion. No more no less.<P>Sorry, for all of this and if I have offended NoMas, I deeply apologize. I just wanted Sifted to realize this can be a safe place.<P>JL