Well he has managed to do it again. Put OW before his own children. <BR>My 2 boys were elected to the allstar baseball team and today was the 2nd round of a huge tournament. My h has not missed a game ever until this year. Todays game was huge. He tells the kids he had something to do and couldn;t make it.<P>Come to find out from my caller ID that he was with OW and her kids at an amusement park in CT. I am sure OW planned this and he will do anything to not upset her. <P>I don't know if not showing up at the game bothered the kids or not but I think he is showing the boys that Ow is more important to him then they are. <P>My one son did not get to play that much today and he was pretty upset by it. When he spoke to my h tonight I think My h felt bad when he heard his voice and he told him don't worry next year I will be the coach of the team and you will start and play the entire game. The problem this year is that my kids are the youngest on the team but they are very good. The older stronger kids get more of the playing time. <P>On another note, My h keeps the kids one night on the weekend. The last 4 weekends, he drops them off at a relatives home and goes back to OW home to sleep. Again just another sign to show the kids that he would rather be with OW. One would think he would want to spend as much time with them as possible. <P>I have recently seen a sadness come over my kids. They don't talk about what is going on but I think deep down they are becoming unhappy children. This really bothers me. They had the happiest life and now that is all being taken away from them. <P>I do my best to keep things as normal as possible for them. My h is the one who has created this entire mess. <P>My h is living the life. He is giving me the bare minimum for $. He is keeping all the extra $ for himself. He lives with OW rent free. He golfs every free day he has. He only sees the kids when its convenient for him and will not keep them past 8:30-9:00pm during the week because he has to get home to OW.<P>I tell you, I just want to pick up and move in the worst way. Far away from him.<P>It is so eary reading other posts when people talk about their spouse changing. In my opinion and in my h family and friends opinion, he has changed so much. However, I am beginning to doubt my opinion. Perhaps this is the real him and he is just starting to act on what he always dreamt about. He probably feel pressed for time in his life and now the oportunity came along to help fulfill this dream life and he took it. Although for the last 17 years he seemed to love the life he had.<P>He is not even capable of comprehending the damage he has inflicted on me and many other people , especially his children!!!!!<P>I am tired of waiting for the wake up call that everyone predicts will occur. Even if my h felt he made a mistake in his heart, I am convinced he is not man enough to admit it. He will live with OW just to prove a point. <P>He tells me he hates me and his actions support that as well. I have given this man no reason to hate me. He on the other hand has given my numerous reason to hate him but I can not. I am to connected to him to hate him. I don't think when he says he hates me he truly means it but right now he feels he does. I think its a way to justify all that he is doing. sometimes i try to place myself in his position to try to understand but even then, I can't comprehend the hatred he feel.<P>Oh well guess I'm just venting... Fed up and frustrated. <P>What do you think the reasoning for him not showing up to the kids games and putting Ow first. He is living with her and has been for 5 months now. Does he still need to prove his love to her at this point????? If that is the case then I would have to believe they have a huge lack of trust issue to contend with. ISn't 5 months long enough to know if you trust someone or not....<P>Advise Please. Happy fourth to all!!!!

Well Missy, I know you know that there is no logic with this..... Keep reminding yourself that this is the "fog" or addiction. I know that doesn't ease your pain or your children's pain.....but it is true.<P>You know THIS is NOT him.... It is not natural or healthy for a person to disregard their children. I mean I think if there is physical or mental abuse, drug or alcohol problems in the marraige, maybe you would need to leave....<P>but to turn a switch off and act in ways totally unlike the former self........means that there are other issues involved. <P>The bad part is that we can not do too much to solve their problems......we can only solve our own...and also make "home" a safe place to return to. Plan A is a great way to do this as we see from Lostva and others.<P>Plan B may be an option if you are LBing....or unable to detach or both, or losing your own love for your H.<P>Have you read "divorce busting"? She decribes the 180 or last resort...i think....I think doing what you normally don't do!!!!! If you keep reacting to his tyrades or shenanigans..... he is getting what he wants.... Do you subtly let him know that you are P****d about his actions such as these???? Even through the kids?????? If so, you may want to try something different.<P>I wonder if that's why plan A worked so well with lostva...her H was being a bear..and she just kept on keeping on, being nice, taking care of herself, loving herself and her h!!!!! She didn't cave!!!<P>In my case, my H was being nice to me....almost as if to keep being the nice guy without dealing with any of the issues....Let's remember my H has YET to tell me anything other than he is confused.<P>I removed myself emotionally and physically too I guess..and he got mad!!!!! Now he is mad at me!!! My MIL said "what do you expect her to do..you tossed her out like an old shoe"!!!! <P>In the meantime...my H is seeing the kids a lot.....taking long weekends and flying places.....and seeing them during the week at his place..... It is great for them.... Plus he is reconnecting with them.....I remember he came home from his trip with oP and said...... he was disconnected from them...and that he was not an important part of their lives...... Which is sooooo inaccurate.... He was so involved. <P>ANyway....I think to respond to a man who is hostile and mean to you.....use sugar!!!! That is plan A of course..... Keep it up....and take care of yourself and the kids.... don't plan B.... just let him maintain his own distance and find ways to plan A him ....!!!! <P>The next time you are at a ball game, why don't you bring him his fav. drink.... In my H's case I would bring some unusual SoBE or something... I might just hand it to him and say nothing.....<P>When my H had the kids in Boston, I left a message specifically talking to each child about something they would like in Boston...and I related it to the times H and I spent in boston..... Funny thing is H took the kids to the same areas we went to!!! The bldg that I mentioned to my son, they had just come from!!!! <P>This is so hard and sad Missy!! I truly know how you feel..... You just keep it up..you have to be the strong one now!!! be strong for yourself, your children and your H!!!!

OK, it's you-know-who!!!! Run quick! Oops, too late! Caught ya! <P>Hi, Honey. This is the worst part of all, isn't it? This part really broke my heart.<P>Robert came to see Kristin ONCE (when she pulled a real [censored] to get some attention) during this entire mess. He called her TWICE! IN SEVEN MONTHS!!!! She had a couple of really special performances during that time - was he there? NOOOOOOO. (He started out showing up for a couple, but PT got "upset", so he blew the others off - until he began making his way OUT of this fog again!)<P>Now, she has ALWAYS been his "little angel".....joined at the hip, those two were. Uh.....so, what happened?<P>About the money. Not one red cent. The man who always put his family first, tried to spoil us to death sent not one dime the entire time to help us out - EVEN after I lost my job!!!!! Read my old posts - you'll see. Now PT managed to get a new place to live, new clothes, a diamond necklace and scores of other things. Meanwhile, we're subsisting on Ooodles of Noodles! AAUUUGGGHHHH!<P>And not only did he ignore US. His family as well and they had WELCOMED her into their homes! They planned special stuff and we found out later (no, I wasn't invited, but PT was!) that he would sit at home all day with HER instead of showing up - never even called. In fact, during Christmas, he had promised to help his dad hang the lights (72 years old and had just had another heart attack), but called his mom that morning and told her he had to work. They understood, but MIL was suspicious, so they rode by the house. Sure enough, he was home, doing PT's Christmas lights!!!!<P>Jerk? Maybe then. But inside? Nahhhhh! Now I know my husband, even though HE was telling me he was finally doing what he wanted to do for the first time in his life. THIS alien was NOT him. Family, Kristin especially, has always been the center of his focus. So, because of this cruel and completely unbelievable behavior, well, I just KNEW the junk about the fog, addition, bad brain period had to be right - I mean, this was awful. And our poor daughter was suffering so.<P>Well, you know the more recent events of this story, right? Once again, they're joined at the hip. Once again, he can't do enough for the two of us. Ah, well......the fog has pretty much lifted. Yayyyy!<P>Would you believe that Robert actually thought we were better off WITHOUT him? That neither Kristin or I had EVER really loved him? And other stuff that would just set your head spinning! Sets HIS spinning when he thinks about it. Some things he doesn't EVEN remember....other things bring him to tears now.<P>Yup, your h is right in there with the rest of 'em, Honey. I know you're tired and frustrated. Do what you need to do. But his actions are EXACTLY what could be predicted right now.....right out of the betrayer's handbook!<P>Oh, and btw, as time went on, PT trusted him LESS not more. Became a huge issue b/n them. You take care of YOUR end, Honey, they always take care of that end FOR you!<P>I'm thinking about you. I'll keep popping in here and there - hey SOMEBODY besides HIM has got to pluck your nerves, right?? <P>Luv ya!<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited July 03, 2000).]

Hi Too and lostva:<P>I can always count on you two to answer me and give me good advise. Thank god!!<P>I hear everything that you are both saying and I truly feel we are all in the same boat. Our h all have changed so much from the person they truly are. I know its straight out of the text book as well. <P>Lostva-You are so strong and put up with so much. I am not so sure I can be that strong. How did you manage to plan A your h when he would totally ignore your daughter and he would not give you any $ for food and bills? My h is giving me just enough to get by but that is it. THat is not what we agreed. We agreed to pay all bills after combining our income and then split 50/50 the extra. Well, I am not getting any extra.<P>I now have to sell my house. The house we just boought 1 1/2 years ago. The house we put about $20,000 worth of work into plus new furniture. Now, I am forced to have to deal with all of this on my own. I am fighting for all proceeds of the sale so I can have enough $ to get myself and the kids a condo somewhere. Our entire standard of living is going to change so much and he does not care at all. As long as he is happy.<P>I have a hard time Plan Aing a person who is soooooo selfish like he is right now. My family and friends are constantly telling me to get over him and he does not deserve you at all. Even his family tells me that!!!<P>That is why I went to a mini Plan B. It seems at the same time he went to plan B of his own as he will have nothing to do with me and ignores me when he sees me. He claims he hates me. <P>Guys, He has no reason to hate me. The reasons he give are crazy and everyone knows it. <P>He is so distant from everyone.Yet, his family is starting to come around. YOu see he comes from a wonderful family and they love him to death. HE was always so much fun to be around. I think they miss that in him. <BR>His parents now sit with him at the baseball games but I think that it because his father was just operated on and he has a difficult time walking very far so when they park their car, they just put their chairs down and my h goes over to sit with them. <P>They use to sit up on the hill with me. <P>His Mom will always always come over to me an give my a big hello. I know they love me but I also know that they are only hearing his side of the story because I don't talk about it much with them and I don;t see them at all unless its at my kids games.<P>Today I am going over to his sisters house for a barbecue. She also thinks her brother is nuts. All his siblings have at one time or another sat down with him and had long talks with him and many tears. <P>They all say that my h has a big problem with opening up to people. Its all so sad..<P>I guess all I can try to do at this point is be civil to him. But, he will not talk to or even look at me. We usually communicate thru e mail. <P>Well got to go now to another game and I know he will be there today because he missed yesterday and my son was very upset. But, who know with him because he is out golfing and OW might demand he gets home to be with her.<P>Ya know thats another thing that bothers me. Not knowing what the OW is truly like to live with . According to her EX, she is crazy. She hits and spits when she is angry. I guess its still to new for my h to witness that side of her yet. According to her ex it started about after a year they were together. <P>I'll write later and let you know what happened at the game today....

The detachment from the kids is the part that bothers me the most. His family used to be his highest priority. Now he sees each of his kids for a a little over an hour a week, and for one overnight visit a month, since he won't let the four youngest come at the same time. He didn't even apparently want all 4 of them to visit on Father's Day, and he brought the two who were visiting home suddenly at just before bedtime on Easter eve, using what sounded to me like a rather flimsy excuse. He visits their grandfather regularly, but hasn't suggested taking any of the kids in probably close to a year. He has called them only a few times in the 16 months since he left, yet complained to them that he couldn't understand why they didn't email or call him. <P>I don't have much trouble with Plan A. No matter how angry I am with him, I know I will always love him. But I am not convinced that it would make a bit of difference if I Plan A'd or not. And in many ways it only gets worse with time. <P>I doubt very much that the OW trusts him at all. He gets very tense if he is here for more than a few minutes, and he apparently has to check in with her frequently. Sometimes I find it hard to believe how disrespectful she is to him - how could she sit there and tell him what to say to me during a phone conversation - did she think he couldn't handle it himself, that he would cave in if she weren't there? I ran across a list of things second wives should never do, and she has done almost all of them, and she isn't even married to him. I was amazed to see that they actually listed passing him notes telling him what to say while he was on the phone with his ex-wife (of course the OW didn't bother being that subtle) as one of the things they shouldn't do. It is as if she read the book on what not to do and is doing all of them. <P>But it seems to make no difference. She can violate everyone of the rules in the book, tell him what to do, prevent him from seeing his kids very often. How can someone have that much power over another person? Why would he want to be with someone who treats him with so little respect and consideration? Even if he never comes back to me, I am quite sure that someday she will come home to find him gone - perhaps to someone else he finds on the internet.

I sure hope this game went well! How'd the boys do???<P>Oh, Honey, I'm no stronger and no more patient that anyone else here. And I went through no more.<P>It's all a matter of PERSPECTIVE!! (Ok, Wassi, I know, I know! ) That's the ticket. I learned not to take the garbage so very personally - even where Kristin was concerned. NO, it's not that easy and yes, I had my times for tears.<P>I didn't look at him as a selfish inconsiderate brute of a man, even though his BEHAVIOR suggested nothing else. If I had I may have wrung his neck, offed PT and be writing from behind bars right now!! <P>See, HE'S not. His behavior was. I learned to separate the two. I knew him....that's who I plan A'd....the guy inside there that I loved and respected. I thought about the wonderful things he had done in the past, the times he had been there for us. The behavior was a different issue altogether...it was NOT my husband. <P>I loved his soul...the one I had come to know so very well over the years. I believed in the man he really was, not the one he was acting like now...that kept me going. And made the crap easier to swallow.<P>I changed my daughter's school, prepared to sell this house, did a lot of stuff to adapt to the much lower standard of living. <P>My in-laws. Well, you weren't around to learn of my infamous MIL! What a pip! My SIL called me at the beginning of this mess and told me that Robert was happy, it was time to move on with my life, take care of my daughter and not contact his family again. How's THAT? His other sister told me to forget the selfish SOB (she was VERY angry w/ him!) The rest of his brothers and sisters just kinda ignored me - 'cept Tony, but he wouldn't talk about it at all! But MIL had different ideas. Yes, they accepted PT. Invited her to everything. Welcomed her, took her shopping, did stuff with her they had NEVER done with me. But Mom felt guilty b/c of what Robert had done, so she kept in touch by phone. Soon started putting 2 and 2 together...then started noticing the changes (negative) in Robert. They would NEVER refuse to associate with her...I was never invited over - except once a couple of weeks after Christmas when no one else was around. By then, Mom was my staunchest supporter. by then, she'd speak her mind to him every now and then. Of course, by THEN, PT had decided that EVERYONE was a threat to her control...even his family. Intercepted phone msgs, managed to keep him away from them almost completely. I didn't blame them for what they did. They loved him and were afraid they'd lose him if they rejected her. Eventually, though, they did just that! But it took MONTHS! And MIL was the greatest plotter and spy you ever could meet! We'd sit up until all hours, fantasizing about what we'd LIKE to do - laughing our butts off on the phone. I've always loved them, and they me. But this mess has given us a relationship you would not believe! Robert says he doesn't even trust us together, no telling what kind of trouble we'd get into!!! And that SIL, she finally saw the light, too and began to do her part. We're the closest of friends now and have an absolute blast together! We never were all that close b/f.<P>PT's sweet little innocent act didn't last either. That kind of person can't keep it up forever. She soon became mean, her hot temper flaring all the time, violent, wasn't calm enough to cover her manipulation as well, overtly controlling. And Robert continued to make excuses for her and forgive her for everything! That's OK. I knew that he (in fact, NOBODY) couldn't put up with that kind of behavior forever. So, I tried to be beautiful and perfect and let her dig her own grave. She did! All of a sudden, he didn't REMEMBER all the horrible things he said about me and what a terrible person he had thought I was! The tables began to turn....he began to see a bit clearer.<P>I'm a fighter by nature (Robert calls me a "quiet warrior! LOL)...not violent, but tenacious as h*** once I decide a goal and determine my course of action. That's what I did. That's how I did it. Nothing special. Not an angel, not a saint, not particularly strong (can you tell those things make me uncomfortable?), just stubborn as all get out!<P>It never worked until I began to SEE it differently. That was the only trick. It's all a matter of perception.<P>Let us know what happened!<P>Love ya, <P>Lori<P>

Lostva, Even though I am on a different route than you were with robert, I am in total agreement re: loving his soul and who he is...not what he is doing.<P>I feel exactly the same way....and will always feel that way...I know my H is a good man underneath this!!! <P>Even though this EA can't really hit reality while he pretends it is just a coworking thing.....I know he will not be able to stay away fromhis family forever!!! I know OP is really one insecure controlling female....and it will all come back to her one day!!!!<P>You know my H was married before me....he and his ex apparently had a rocky marraige and she did not want kids......they separated and were almost divorced when I met him.....there was no affair in his case.... he was so conciderate of her feelings. He felt so bad about getting divorced (Catholic you know) and they apparently even went to marraige counseling1!! For years after we were dating and even married he thought about her and worried for her!!!! So explain this!!!!! We did not have a rocky marraige...we have 3 kids...... he says nothing to me of any problems but comes home from this trip and says....."there's nothing we can do"!!! and all kinds of cruel things..<P>This is how I know this is an illness!!!! an abberation!!!! an alien!!!!!!! Not my H...<P>

The kids won the game tonight and h showed up. He sat in the outfield with his mom and dad all by themselves. His father just got over a surgery and can't walk that far. <P>After the game ended, I waited in my car and my h was walking by so I rolled down my window and said are you taking the boys? HE replied yes, I'm gonna take them for something to eat. I was shocked because he was away all day playing golf and I am sure he was anxious to get home to OW. <P>That is the most I have spoken to him in about 3 weeks. Well, the kids got invited to sleep over one of their friends houses so he never spent time with them again tonight. He drove them home to get clothes and then drove them to their friends. <P>He apparently did not mind that once again he was not going to have any quality time with them. <P>That is the most disturbing part of all of this. Here is a man that was such a great Dad. He did everything with our kids. He is off all summer and always was the one to watch them. Well, not sure what this summer will bring. I bet OW will have him watching her 3 kids. IT is going to be a big problem because I work full time. <P>I still felt absolutely nothing for him when I saw him tonight. I think My feelings are beginning to die. I think the meanness on his part is finally taking its toll. <P>I agree that the person I don't miss is not the person I married. Until I can see signs of that person again, I am going to stick with a full plan B. I feel as though Plan A is out of the question because I just never have the opportunity to speak to him. I think he has to be the first one to make the move. <P>One time he told me that he would rather not talk to me and be nice because it will get my hopes up.<P>I also remember on the night he said he needed to leave us to be with OW, he just held me and told me he would always love me and would make sure I was well taken care of. He said he would always be there for the kids as well. Well that was in January of this year and we can not be futher away from any of that.<P>Just wanted to update you all....<P>I think it would be so helpful if Lostva would or could get her h to sign on and give us his side of their happy story. I think I will start a thread to find her and ask....