Hopefully this won't be to long. Its already 12:47am and I was planning on going to bed early until I got a phone call from my h. <P>He called to let me know our accountant messed up our 1998 tax returns by adding incorrectly. So,we will owe over $2,000.00. He wants me to give him half. Told h I dont have the money and that he should pay for it out of the $12,000.00 extra that he has been withholding from me. He said no, Lets take it from our savings account. Well we don't have enough $ in the savings account to cover it and I told him that that is my back up $ in case anything major should happen because he is not giving me enough $. <P>He was angry at my reply to him so this led him to go on and on about How I am trying to sabotage his relationship with OW by trying to keep the kids away and that I am ruining my kids lives. <P>He then went on to say that next year he will not be coaching Basketball and Baseball because he wants to spend more time with the kids. I said to him "More time?" He barely spends time with them now. He gets them Monday, Thursday and either Friday into Saturday or SAturday into Sunday. On the weekends he is suppose to keep them overnight. Well for the last 4 weekends, he drops them off at a relatives house and he goes back home to Ow. During the week when he has them, he will not keep them past 8 o'clock because he needs to get home to Ow. The kids even said to me tonight, Mom we are always with you and barely with Dad. My h said he is documenting all the time I am not with the kids. I would love to see that. <P>He then started in that I am ruining my kids lives because I talk to OW ex h. This has been his big pet peeve all along. Well Yes he called me when this all broke in February and I did speak to him. But, hey I honestly feel I am entitled. <P>Well he ( OW EX) called me the other night to ask me what the name of my kids counselor was because all of a sudden OW wants her kids to go to a counselor. He did not want his kids to go to the same one my kids went to. So, when he was speaking to his EX wife(OW) he said I don't want them going to the same counselor that your boyfriend's (my h) kids are going to. Well she took that to mean that I have spoken to her h again. So, I am sure she went running to my h and told him that I was interfereing again. <P>I honestly don't see it as interfering. I just simply answered a question a friend asked. <P>The worst part of the entire conversation is that once again his tone was so mean so it made me raise my voice as well. The kids were in the next room and heard everything. When I hung up I was so upset and I started to cry big time. My one son just came up to me and gave me a hug and he started to cry too. <P>I hate when they see me like that. They never have in the past. My h also said that I am causing unbelieveable problem in his life. He said that until I stop talking to her Ex h that he can not in good conscience have an amicable relationship with me. <BR>Make me want to get sick..Who is he kidding. HE had no intention of having any relationship with me. OW will not allow it. She will just remind him of what a terrible person I am.<BR>I know this all smells of love busting but I'm sorry he deserved it. Sometimes you just can't hold back and he really caught me off guard.<P>I haven't spoken to him in weeks and then all of a sudden out of no where he goes off on me. Who the hell does he think he is???<P>I am so angry and I have put up with so much that I simply don't deserve this. <P>At one point in the conversation tonight, I asked him how he sleeps at night to which he replied. "I sleep GREAT and I love to help OW around the house. We take great care of each other."<BR>Again, make me sick. He never helped me out around the house. He was more interested in his TV. <P>He went out and bought a lawn mower for OW and he takes care of her lawn now. This from a man who would never even cut the lawn for his parents and with our house he hired a lawn service to come in. <P>I just dont get his behavior.<BR>I have 2 theories:<P>1) OW is really pressuring him to take her out in public and be near my kids. This creates problems in their relationship. He wants to please her so he compensates in any other way until he can have a counselor elavlutate our kids. In the meantime he needs to prove his love for her in other ways and what better way then to be absolutly horrible to me on the phone where she is in the backgroud listening to everyword. <P>2) He really did change drastically and this is who he is. <P>I gotta tell you guys if # 2 is it, I'm outta here. I want no part of that man. I just want the answer soon. My love for him is so low right now. I honestly am not sure I want it to come back. <P>Because I got married young (23)and my h was my only serious boyfriend( since 15), maybe I don't know what true happiness is. I sure as hell felt so happy all 18 of the 20 years we have been together. I can't even imagine finding another person to make me as happy as he did. Perhaps it was all a dream......<P>If you were me and you honestly felt at the end of your rope, what would you do. <BR>If I didn't have so much family and friends around, I would far away from him..<P>Please tell me what to do. Even Lori (lostva) if you are our there. This seems so hopeless. The one thing I keep telling myself is that if he needs to call me and treat me this way, there must be alot of things bothering him then just Me. I mean his entire life is turned upside down and the only person he had to listen to him is OW. All she does is justify what he wants to hear. Then all the blame for their problems gets shifted back to me and her ex h. Sad but It think its the truth. <P>Look forward to your help. <BR>Good night and god bless. (((<BR>

{{{{{{{{{{{missy}}}}}}}}}}<P>Missy, he's not describing you. He's describing himself. <BR>...sabotaging the relationship<BR>...trying to keep the kids away <BR>...ruining the kids lives<BR>...interferring<BR>...causing unbelieveable problem <BR>...can not in good conscience have an amicable relationship <P>Pain comes in all different flavors. Your H is certainly dishing out ample portions of it. He can't possibly be happy with the person he's become. It seems he wants you to hurt as much as he's hurting. He seems to be feigning his happiness with OW and won't admit his mistake. How terrible for you and your kids to suffer so much. All I can suggest is to visualize his words as drops of water. Let them roll off you the way water rolls off a duck. <BR>

Hey Missy,<P>you just wrote my story from 7 - 8 months ago. My H was exactly the same way. And in our case, it was because OW couldn't stand the thought of him speaking to me and his children. She was so threatened by it. Of course, I told her that I would always be a part of his life as I was the mother of his children. No-one can ever compete with that. Sure, he could have had more children with her, but it would never be the same.<P>I'm so sorry he is doing this to you. I firmly believe, with all my heart, that they do this because they are feeling so guilty about what they have done. They can't see why they are to blame, so they say and do horrible things to us, which make us retaliate, and then they can say to themselves <P>"see, I was justified in all I felt. No wonder I had to leave her. No wonder I fell in **love** with someone else."<P>It is their guilt that they can't handle. All my reading, and so much info from other people here, all says the same thing. They cannot accept blame and responsibility themselves, they have to blame someone else, and who better but us.<P>It's sick, it's wrong, it makes me want to vomit, but that's the way it is. <P>It was funny, when my H was still having his affair with OW #1 (he's had 3 now) and I was being driven mad by thoughts of him with her, doing things with her etc etc etc, I made a little booklet of the steps that they seem to go through. And they all do seem to go through the same steps. <BR>Anyway, one time I read about how he WOULD try to blame me for all this, so I waited and waited for him to actually say something that would let me know he blamed me for his affair. (just to give a bit of history, when we separated I moved 2000 kms away to be with my family)<BR>Sure enough, one day on the phone, he made this little gem of a comment.<P>"Well, you left me......"<P>My response was "well, yes I did, but why did I leave you.? You didn't want me, or to work on our marriage, You were going to have OW by hook or by crook. So I let you have her."<P>My point is, try not to think about the man YOU knew, because he has gone for the moment. He IS someone else. I found that once I separated the two in my own mind, it was easier to deal with what he was saying and doing. Things my H would never have said or done in a million years before all this became so common. Your H is in his fog, and living an unreal dream. It's your worst nightmare, but to him, it's reality.<BR>It's funny how I can look back on everything, and see how my H was basically a textbook case. I could almost pinpoint any given scenario in our little nightmare. But, this is all with the benefit of hindsight.<P>You will get through this Missy. We all find our way. Somehow. Someway. And I believe we will all be better people for it. Either with our spouses, (when they wake up), or without them in a loving fulfilling new relationship. I personally know I have learnt so so much. About myself, him, relationships, my children, absolutely everything. About life.<P>Use us here. There are so many people here who are much wiser than I am, and who can express it better than I ever could. When I look back, I can't believe the road I have travelled. I can't believe I even made it. But I did. And you will too.<P>big hugs to you, right now. Try and get some sleep, you need to take care of you.<BR>I'll check on you later....<P>Jo

Missy,<P>I have a question for you. Has his visitation been granted by the courts? If so, when I went to court with my H, he was granted weekend visitation with our sons. He's only allowed to keep them at his mom's because the OW is not allowed around them. My lawyer told me that he is not allowed to drop them off at his mom's and go back to the OW's. The visitation is for him and he is supposed to keep them. <P>If his visitation has been ordered by the courts, talk to your attorney. Your H shouldn't be allowed to drop them off with relatives and leave.<P>Just a suggestion,<BR>Good luck!<BR>Mitzi

Hi, Sweetie. Big hugs for you.<P>(((((((((((((Missy)))))))))))))<P>I found out later that Robert was the meanest to me when.....<P>1. He was feeling the worst about what he was doing.<P>2. He was MISSING me the most.<P>3. PT was really getting on his nerves.<P>At those times he was cruel, nasty, argumentative, distant - fighting the feelings he was having. He was looking for justification of what he was doing through my behavior. I didn't give it to him. He couldn't say I was a mean ole witch. NOW, he says, he doesn't even remember all the horrible things he thought about me that he clung to back then. <P>A couple of examples:<P>In October, I got a phone call from him at work - only the second call that I had gotten. He was horrid. He needed something - doctor's phone # or something, I don't remember. I sat and listened. I didn't react. He just talked (yelled, fussed, whatever) for over 1/2 hour! I did my Plan A thing and I cried when he hung up. The REAL reason? During the conversation, it came out that the Friday night b/f, he had had a seizure and been taken to the emergency room. He was SCARED, Missy. When he gets scared, he gets angry, know what I mean. And he needed me, 'cause he trusted me. So he called, but he couldn't NEED me, he hated me, right? So he was nasty. He had only called once in three months and he had to call. And you know what he remembers? I was there for him, no matter what he said.<P>He and BIL came over to hunt on Thanksgiving. Well, BEFORE all this, my house was a bustling ZOO on Thanksgiving in the morning. Usually about 20 people expected, including his family. This year, my brother and SIL were eating w/ her family, my Papa was dead, and HIS family was eating with his sister (yes, PT was invited!). So nothing was going on here. I had a turkey breast for me and Kristin to cook, but since she doesn't like the other stuff and there were just the 2 of us, no prep necessary. Gone were all the pies, cakes, etc and the consequent smells that usually fill the house. He was horrible to me that day. I posted 'cause I cried so hard once he left. But he was horrid to me b/c NOT seeing the part of the holiday we always loved the most HURT him so much. Understand? He felt guilty and, believe it or not, he missed us and the way things usually were.<P>What you're trying to do is hard, but there is one thing you have GOT to learn to do:<P>Do NOT let his words or behavior influence YOUR behavior! In other words, "The worst part of the entire conversation is that once again his tone was so mean so it made me raise my voice as well. " - can't happen. His actions, his tone, his words cannot dictate YOURS. You must take control of yourself, thereby taking control of the situation. Honey, I know it sounds next to impossible, but it IS possible! And once you start NEVER reacting, the encounters will begin to change tone. He will push, he will test and you will PASS and civility will take over. Can you do that for me, PLEASE? As an example, he says he's gonna do whatever to see more of the kids. Now YOU know he doesn't spend enough time with him, THEY know it and HE knows it. Your response: "Oh, H, that would be wonderful, they need so very much to spend as much time as they can with you....I'm so glad!"<P>His nasty response "Well, if you'd let them see OW, I'd get more time with them."<P>"I know how much you love them and miss them. They love you and miss you too. But, know what? I know how important being a father has always been to you....you have always been the best father. Being around other people during this stressful time in their lives will upset them even more. You know, I've decided that even if I meet someone else, I'm not gonna expose them to that relationship either - it's just not fair to them right now. They need OUR full and undivided attention to help them get through this and reassure them of our love. What do you think? Later when things have settled down for them, we can share them with others, but, for right now, I know you'll agree they really need our reassurance. I know nothing is more important to you than your children. You can see that when you look at them."<P>Understand. Counter his venom with love and compliments. Make your points gently. Talk lovingly to the man you've known for 18 years, not this alien you have in front of you!! I saw a movie once where this guy was "possessed" by a demon. To draw him out, even when the demon was causing the guy to do horrible, gross things, his wife, his friends, the minister appealed to the man WITHIN - not the demon facing them. That's what you're doing. Whether it looks like it or not at the moment, you WILL touch that man inside. The strength of love and understanding are the most powerful forces on earth. They are tested and it seems they lose sometimes, but they never do in the long run. They DO make an impression.<P>Plan A feels like a trickle of water running down a mountain. You can't see anything happening at all and it's frustrating. But that water IS making it's mark...little by little. It can, and does, wear away that mountain.<P>Everytime we lovebust (and yes I had a couple of bouts of it, but I'm proud to say, just a couple) the effects are IMMEDIATE! It automatically affirms that twisted impression they have of us. Plan A, with no lb's have a slow subtle effect that doesn't really show until the fog lifts then it ALL pops to their conscious mind at once. BUT.....it helps to lift the fog, one little tiny bit at a time.<P>This is not easy stuff. I have shared this pain you are experiencing. And there are no guarentees. EXCEPT....the calm that YOU will begin to experience inside once you "get it". It starts out as a job, almost pretending, then it takes over your spirit, giving you a strength you cannot imagine. And your husband will benefit from that strength.<P>You know as well as I do that this is not who he will be forever. He is this person now and it is unpleasant (I can think of much better words, but....). Do NOT deal with that person. Talk to the person he is inside. Believe in the man you know. Don't TELL him that, just do it. That man is in there, listening, waiting for his time to emerge.<P>As always, I say do what you need to do for you and those boys. Nothing I've asked you to do is easy and it involves a completely new way of thinking. Only you know if you want to try it.<P>Tons of love, Honey.<P>Lori

Mitzie- Why is your h not allowed to be around OW? I am not all the familiar with your situation. Can you please advise? <P>Lostva-Again, I hear everything you are saying to me. Everything. Can you remember how you felt when you were being treated this way? When it is happening to you, you can not see any hope at all. That is why all that you say ( As much as i know in my head thats its the truth) in my heart, it just can't register.<P>My h sent me an e mail last night after we got off the phone and again he just wanted to reiterate that the sooner i stop sabotaging his relationship by speaking to OW ex the sooner he will be willing to establish a amicable relationship with me. <P>My h never uses those words. I bet you anything She was sitting right next to him dictating the words.<P>I have to go now as i am at work. I'll check in with all of you later. <P>Thanks as always for your encouragement.

Missy,<P>My H isn't allowed to take the boys around the OW because I asked the Law MAster if he could order that. Of course, for now I can't have any man that I am romantically involved with around the boys either. If they order it for one party, they order it for both. The law master agreed that it would not be good for the kids. <P>I told my H that if he pushes the boys to be around the OW, all of their dirty little secrets will come out in court. H and OW both are alcoholics, drug users and right after my H left, the OW called here and called my kids "little f-ing bas***ds" and said that my H would be better off if me and the kids just dropped off the face of the earth. I didn't have to bring it up in court but if I have to, I will.<P>Good luck to you!<BR>Mitzi

Hi, Honey!<P>Yes, I remember. I never said it was easy, just necessary. <P>Papa always said "You do what you have to do, when you have to do it - no excuses."<P>I'm glad he taught me that lesson now.<P>If you've read my old posts, you can see my pain as well. I've learned from my own experiences. Every one is different. I can only pass on what I learned - from my experiences and from other success stories here. You are my friend. I owe you that.<P>The only person you can control here is you. That's your only choice. It's up to you.<P>Luv ya bunches.<P>Lori

Missy,<BR>Rejoice!!<P>Your H is on the fence!!<P>If a person is feeling great, happy, content with the person they are with and w/ their life, are they grumpy, argumentative, blaming, looking for a fight? NO!! They are more tolerant, loving, have a more elevated way of thinking. <P>There is hope. The thing that is making you insane right now is the very evidence you've been looking for to have some hope. <P>Everytime he calls you--he is thinking about you!<P>When he is ignoring you is when you need to be worried.<P>Everytime he calls you, you are being given an opportunity to work on him. Like Lotsva said, you get a chance to trickle your water down the side of his (seemingly indestructable) mountain. Use those opportunities to your best advantage!<P>You know all his arguments--create some loving responses beforehand, like Lotsva suggested. Write them down by the phone or computer if you have to. Make it as impossible as you can for you to lovebust or "lose it" with him. <P>You mentioned that the OW was probably sitting next to him by the computer or nearby on the phone when he contacts you--what an opportunity THAT is!! YOU can set the scene for HER to LOVEBUST HIM! Be an angel!! Be everything loving and kind and caring. Make it impossible for him to see you as some evil witch (but he will try his best! Let me warn you now! If only to verify that he hasn't made a grave mistake in choosing OW). OW will know what you are saying--and will feel so threatened, she will rant and rave and nag him and blast you and then who will look like the evil witch?!! He may go along with it for a while but later on he will replay everything you say to him. He will remember your kindness, your goodness. And he'll start with the comparisons...and the scale will begin to tip in your favor. <P>The OW's days with him are numbered!<P>Bless you, good luck to you--take heart!!<BR>This is good! Beter times are coming for you, Missy. Hang on!! <P>P.S. I don't know about restricting visitation rights. That may be an LB not unless you think your kids are in danger, of course. <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 06, 2000).]

Hey Missy,<P>I wanted to jump in here really quick to say how sorry I am your H is acting like a major Jerk. I'm at work right now but will write to you this evening.<P>Take care hun. Praying for you.<P><BR>Jo

Missy,<P>Sorry to burst in on your thread, but I was just about to write a post so similar to yours that it is spooky. My H has barely talked to me in months about anything other than logistics. Last week when we were in court waiting and waiting for our lawyers we talked for quite awhile about relatively mundane things about the kids, etc. A couple of days ago he called me and talked about financial stuff for close to half an hour. He sounded more or less like his normal self, although terribly anxious. It was almost like talking to the old H, even though we disagreed about what to do. He took the kids to dinner, and 5 minutes after he dropped them off he called me back to yell at me, claiming that I would access to more money if I hadn't supposedly stalled the divorce. Ever since then he has been sending nasty emails, blaming me for everything, calling me names,<BR>and telling me that I am screwing up the kids. <P>One part of me thinks that Lori is right, that he is angry at me because he is feeling guilty. I know he is terribly worried about not being able to find another job. I am sure he is feeling awful - when he was telling me how no one wanted to hire him he phrased it as, "No one likes me", when he meant that no one likes his qualifications or that he is overqualified for many jobs. Maybe the OW is giving him a hard time about the fact that nothing further will happen in court until at least October. <P>But then I wonder if maybe he really does think practically everything is my fault, and will continue to think so for ever. I have tried not to respond with LB's, but I am seriously doubting if it really makes any difference. No matter what I do or don't do, he comes up with something to blame me for. <P>Lori,<P>You said that Missy's H is not the person he will be forever. I am beginning to think that maybe this is the person my H will be forever. It is certainly not the person he used to be, but he gets worse with each passing day. Every time we have a semi-normal conversation, he follows it by getting meaner than he was before. It has been over 16 months since he left, and he seems to be sinking deeper and deeper into depression, and with every inch he sinks he becomes meaner and meaner. I try to see the man inside, but I am not sure he is there any longer. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited July 06, 2000).]

Hi, Nellie. I've kept up with you and boy have you been put through the ringer! I STILL don't think they will be this person forever. A few months for some, more time for others. (Perpetual optimist, I guess.)<P>When my brother "did his thing" (we've talked extensively about the things going on inside him during that time and actually, very few had to do with his wife or marriage - they just took the brunt of it), it took him more than 3 years to "come to his senses." He did say to me once during the middle of this mess "I wish that S had treated ME the way you treat Robert during that time....I think things would have turned out differently. It's not HER fault, don't get me wrong, it was mine - 100%, but she was so full of venom." My SIL took almost 4 years. Both of them lost their marriages, but one interesting thing is that both of them took a long time and both their spouses were champion lovebusters after discovery day. Wonder if there's a connection. (BTW, SIL And BIL re-married after 5 years apart....years now and doing great!)<P>Remember Freedom? Look how long HE took!! I think one of the big mistakes we make is by looking at time...."he/she's been this way for so many months, I think he'll STAY this way forever." Not likely....none of us stay the same forever and very few of us go through such a drastic transformation. I don't know. Could be wrong....certainly have been before!!! <P>Funny, you know Robert did the same thing...once we'd have a decent conversation or he'd act like he sorta enjoyed being around me for a few minutes (or at LEAST could tolerate me! ) he seemed to be horrible the next time...then it got fewer and farther b/n. <P>Hang in there, Nellie. You, too, Missy!<P>Lori

Lori,<P>I hope you are right. But I have not seen any sign whatsoever that it is getting better - quite the opposite. Just when I think he could not get worse, he does. <P>I have done my best not to LB, but everything is an LB. Even just my existing, I think.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nellie}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

Just to let you know....FREEDOM didn't make it. He ended up divorced.