I posted down below and as you can see, i'm still upset with my wife. <P>Here's another problem. I don't want to be sexual with her anymore. Is this right? After D day, I tried everything, Plan A and B, so on, but she did nothing. <P>I do not find her desirable anymore. It's like a new white shirt that got mud thrown all over it. It will never come clean.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your question, Big Tex. <P>Are you asking if it is okay not to be intimate with you wife any more, or are you asking if it's a normal feeling to have in the course of getting over an affair?<P>As far as the feeling itself, I totally understand where you're coming from on this one. The relationship I thought I had with my spouse wasn't really there. A while ago someone wrote a post comparing his marriage to a beautiful vase that was smashed and no matter how hard he tried it was always going to look like a glued together mess after he was done.<P>Someone (I wish I could remember names, but I can't no matter how hard I try) told him to stop thinking of gluing the old vase back together. Instead, she told him to think of creating a new vase with his wife.<P>So I suggest that you do the same with your wife. Burn that old white shirt--it's never going to come clean and it'll just drag up bad memories if you throw it in the rag bag. Instead, sew a new one with your wife.<P>That means starting from scratch, and I don't know about you, but I certainly never felt like hopping in the sack with someone on the first date. Get to know her again. Bring her some flowers and make her feel special. If she is also committed to saving your marriage, she's going to start wanting to make you feel special. Only when you both have enough "love units deposited in your love banks" (to use Dr. Harley's phrases) will you feel like making love.<P>Good luck to you, BigTex. --HBC

Hi there Tex (we're in Texas too BTW),<P>Do you mind if I ask... what is it that your W is NOT doing to show you that she is trying? What is it that you need from her that she is not giving you? Does she know exactly what it is that you require in order to show you that she is indeed trying?<P>The reason I ask is that you sound very much like my H. He constantly says I do nothing to work on our marriage (I am the "betrayer" although I find this debatable which may be one of our problems). I try to fix him things he likes to eat because at one point he said that was what he wanted, I was keeping the house clean but stopped when it went unnoticed, and I try to show him affection but it is difficult knowing what he thinks about me. Maybe if I agreed with him on the particulars of our situation I would feel so much guilt that I would do anything, but I'm afraid I don't. When he says some of the things he says about me and when I hear some of his opinions about me now, it only makes me angry and distant. <P>I am babbling, but my point was that I feel like I am doing things to work on our marriage, he does not. It seems to me the only thing HE does is buy me stuff. What's so wonderful about HIS efforts? I feel like we are drowning and I don't want you OR your W to feel like that either...

It's very normal to feel that way. We invest our whole loves and beings in another person, and when they betray us, it's natural not to want to give them that part of ourselves again. <P>Take it slow. See what you can comfortably manage and work with that. Maybe just sitting close or giving each other back rubs is all you can do right now. That's fine. It's not a race to forgiveness. It's not a race to get in the sack or to prove anything. It's an exercise in trying to find each other again. Be patient. There's a whole lot of hurting going on and you are allowed to work through this before going through the intimate motions.<P>Sometimes when we stop giving things energy, they happen naturally.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monen:<BR><B>The reason I ask is that you sound very much like my H. He constantly says I do nothing to work on our marriage (I am the "betrayer" although I find this debatable which may be one of our problems). I try to fix him things he likes to eat because at one point he said that was what he wanted, I was keeping the house clean but stopped when it went unnoticed, and I try to show him affection but it is difficult knowing what he thinks about me. Maybe if I agreed with him on the particulars of our situation I would feel so much guilt that I would do anything, but I'm afraid I don't. When he says some of the things he says about me and when I hear some of his opinions about me now, it only makes me angry and distant.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not only does BigTex sound like your husband, but your situation with your husband sounds very much like my situation. Maybe this will shed some light on your situation a little.<P>We compare and we compare everything that you did during your affair to what is going on now. It took a great deal of time, energy and thought to have an affair. When we know that, we expect to see the same if not more time, energy and thought being put into the marriage. You say that you stopped cleaning the house because it wasn't being noticed, but if your husband is anything like me, it was being noticed, but does the fact that the house is clean need to be commented on daily?, and when you stopped, I'm sure your husband felt that you wouldn't have stopped cleaning for the OM just because he didn't mention it everyday, if feels like we are being taken for granted, while the OM could do no wrong and what needs you could meet, you gave your all to do so. As far as showing affection, this is sticking point as well, you say that it is hard to show affection because of what he thinks of you, well put yourself in his shoes, he is trying to make a marriage work with someone that has caused him the most pain in his life, I'm sure he feels that the least you could do is show him that you care by showing him affection, even if it is uncomfortable for you at this time. Whether it is right or wrong, I know how your husband feels when it comes to his opinion of you and some of the things that he probably says, I have probably said them myself, but what is to be expected? I think that it is sometimes forgotten that this is without a doubt the most pain and heartache a person has to go through, for men there is the added shattering of the "male ego" by being emasculated by the woman that he trusted would never intentionally hurt him in that manner. When you get angry or distant at the things that he says, and I'm not saying that the things that he says shouldn't hurt or bother you, but again, try looking at things from his point of view, he probably feels that "you have a lot of nerve to get upset, it was you that caused all of this." <P>One other thing, why would it take you to feel guilty to do anything? Why are you not willing to do just about anything? Why don't you feel guilt? Maybe your husband picks up on this and feels that considering that you betrayed him, you would feel guilty, that if you really wanted to make the marriage work, you would be willing to do just about anything, considering the actions that you took. <P>I don't know whether I have written some of what you hear at home or not, or whether I offended you or not, that is not my intention, my intention was to maybe shed some light on what your husband may be feeling or thinking, especially since your post about what your husband says sounded so familiar to me.<P>

Hi FA, <P>Yes, what you are saying sounds very familiar, however - there was no time invested in my "affair". The guy was an ex of mine that I had been in touch with for awhile. My H knew I was in touch with him because he was there when I called him (there was a specific reason for calling the guy). I wasn't involved with him at all prior to the "affair" with the exception of occasional and casual conversation on the phone. When my H and I filed for divorce and he moved out, I was very confused and emotions were everywhere. I ended up being physical with the ex one night when I was drunk. We had no further person-to-person contact but did talk about the incident and realized it was a mistake. We thought we might be able to continue to be friends, but weren't sure.<P>After some time, H and I decided we wanted to make the marriage work and made a conscious decision that divorce was not to be an option for us in order to force ourselves to work harder. He moved back in and I wrote a note to my ex stating that while I did care for him (possibly may have loved him - my H read the note and hates when I leave that out), I could not see or speak to him any longer as I wanted to try to make my marriage work. I did this on my own. My H was not even aware of what had happened between us until he spied and read the note. My H decided he wanted and had to know everything that occured while he was gone.<P>Unfortunately I decided that him not knowing about my fling was the best thing and lied through my teeth about the whole thing. He went to great lengths to figure it all out anyway and is greatly distressed about my lying so much - as well he should be. I have apologized for that specifically many times.<P>The point is that there was no time invested in cultivating a separate relationship with someone else, either before or after we filed for divorce. It was a fling that occured afterward because I was emotionally unstable and drunk. <P>Our contention comes because I differentiate between our situation and an actual affair, while he does not AT ALL. He becomes extremely angry when he hears me even mention the way I feel about the whole thing so I don't. I just try to let him know that I love him and that that's why I chose to work it out w/ him in the first place.<P>It isn't enough for my H and he feels like I'm not doing anything to work on our marriage. Hence, I asked BigTex what it was that HE needed from HIS W... maybe he could shed some light for me.<P>Sorry so long and for the deviation from the topic BigTex...

Monen<P>I can't speak for BigTex, but since your husband and I share many of the same feelings, I will tell you what I need from my W. I need to know that she loves me and <B>only me.</B> I need to know that while I may have done things in the past to hurt her, that she knows I did it unintentionally, and that what I have done and continue to do for her and our family is genuinely appreciated.<BR>I need for her to go out of her way to earn my trust, which means <B>total and complete</B> honesty as well as the willingness to let me know of her whereabouts and activities at all times. I need her to tell me her innermost thoughts and feelings, because for so many years she never told me what was inside of her, the truth or what she thought or felt, whether I asked or not, she kept it all to herself. I want her to look at my list of EN's and put more time, energy and thought into our marriage and meeting those needs then she did in lying to me, deceiving me and sneaking around on me during her affair, there takes a tremendous amount thought and energy to carry on an affair. I want her to show me that she loves me by being affectionate, telling me that she loves me, making an effort to show me through both words and actions that she is truly sorry for what has happened and that I, and no other man, is special to her. I want her to understand what has happened to me emotionally and mentally and understand that the things that I have listed here, while they may seem demanding, particularly the letting me know her whereabouts and activities at all times, is the result of having my world and all the trust I had in her destroyed, and that hopefully in time, that need will be abated a great deal.<P>While you may not have had the "classic" affair, you did mention that you had major problems before that led to seperation and from what you say your husband says and does, I'm sure some of what I need from my W, your husband probably needs from you. It may seem like alot, but if the goal is to someday get past all of this and have a marriage that was better than the one before, is it not worth it?<P>BigTex, we did get off the topic a bit, sorry about that. I just wanted to let you know that I too have felt what you feel. There are times that I don't desire my W because I don't feel that she desires me or because she is intimate with me because she is doing her wifely duty. I too have also felt a lack of desire because of trying so hard to make things work only to either see her not making much of an effort or because of some type of rejection of me by her. Maybe this will work for you, but what I do is continue to try to meet the needs that she tells me she has, and when I am with her sexually, put all of my heart and soul into it, and maybe, hopefully she will begin to try to meet your needs and the desire you seek will return. I hate to use these words because they are used so much, but it takes <B>TIME AND PATIENCE</B>

FA, why is it that other people always seem to be able to write my feelings better than I can. Your whole post hits home so much. I want the same things that you want. I want to be the only person that my H needs. I want to be the person who lights up his day. I want him to be able to share with me things that he wouldn't share with anyone else. I want him to buy me little gifts just so I know he cares about me. I want him to recognize when my trust in him is failing and I want him to say, "I know it's hard for you to trust me when you are gone this weekend, but I want you to know that I have not contacted the OW and I will not contact her while we are gone." I need him to make those steps instead of me having to ask. Eventually, I would hope that would no longer be necessary, but two months into d-day, it would certainly help me to hear it reitereated when I am nervous. I need the defensiveness to go away. I need him to accept that he has broken my trust, and I need him to work on gaining it back.<P>Yes, Big Tex, we have gotten off topic here it seems. You say your wife is doing nothing. May I ask how effectively you are doing Plan A. If you do not find her desirable, do you think she felt that. That would not help your Plan A if she felt you were no longer attracted to her. My H was convinced that I could not be attracted to him (before and after the A). I am working very hard to dispell those notions as they are completely off base. When I looked at him he saw contempt in my eyes even though I felt only pain, emptiness, and hurt for what we were going through.<P>I have since decided that we need to date again. I know it sounds like a cliche, but the romance flew out of our window during the past five years. I continued to move on without it, but he stopped and sought it elsewhere. Because I want the things I mentioned above, I have to let him know that I am a safe harbor where he can dock.<P>Do you want to be each others safe haven? I never stopped loving my H, despite the fact that he fell in love with someone else. Do you still love your W? I still find my H desirable. No, we can't clean the shirt, but like HurtButCoping said, we can make a new one. Dye the dirty white shirt a bright red. The old shirt is still there just as your memories--good and bad--are still there. But the new shirt is bright and energizing and exciting. Do not let it fade back to the old one. Always keep it fresh and clean and better than before.