I'm guessing this is a baby step towards progress. Yesterday, I was kind of down - going back through most of my emotions right as H was walking in the door. He looked at me and asked what was wrong and I said nothing. It wasn't anything I needed to talk to him about. I just needed the solitude.<P>Well after I was dozing off, my H came to bed and kissed me and said that he wished that it was just us. With no interference. Considering all that's happened these last 2 years I can say the same thing. Then he said that he was sorry for putting me through what he had gone through. I asked him other day if he felt guilty about what he did and he said yes and wanted to know why I asked. I told him that I was wondering if he felt the same weight and burden that I had felt. <P>Then I had to cry - not those long heart wrenching sobs, but tears for the past joy that we felt and the longing for my life back. I just wanted to know when I would get my life back. Then I cried myself to sleep on his chest.<P>At least now I know one answer, that he knows I'm hurting. I guess with time there'll be more baby steps ....<P> <BR>Vee

Vee,<P>Did you know he was hurting when you had your affair? I suspect so. Why would not think he would not know you are hurting? Men don't say much but we do pay attention. Sometimes .<P>Your H wouldn't have ended the affair or for that matter even started it if he didn't realize it would hurt you. There is no need for a revenge affair, if the other person doesn't care, now is there? Duh! <P>So yes these are baby steps, but I think you have a much more remorseful H than you think. He'll get to where you want, remember it took you 9? months before you would address your affair with him.<P>So hang in there. You are doing very well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL -<BR>I'm sure that he is remorseful, but I never see it. The extent of what I have seen is 'Boy am I glad that is over' on d-day and a few other (and I do mean a few) times when he talks about it without any prompt from me. Last night was probably the first time I really ever saw him solemn. The only reason that I know he felt bad was that he touched me a lot. You know, those soft baby kisses, holding my hand, etc. <P>My other thing is why is he still doing things I don't really approve of? He's got a couple of projects coming up - one being a fashion show for the University and he still thinks it's ok to be out until 12 or 1 in the morning with his team mates playing video games! It makes me downright uncomfortable given what he said he was doing and what he actually was doing. He even acknowledged it last night! He knows that it makes me uncomfortable, but it's like he thinks it's still ok. If I say something, then I become the world's worst nagging behind wife. I haven't said anything about it because I trying to find a nice calm plan A way to bring it up. I hate it, but it's all too fresh for me, and I'm just not ready to branch out on that blind faith just yet. <P>Thanks for your vote of confidence in my abilities! I'm trying very hard and it's getting a little easier, but instead of sunny days, I'm having partly cloudy with scattered showers days! <P>Vee

Vee,<P>You asked why he is out with teammates when he knows you really hate it. I could give you a 1000 reasons, but just remember when you were over with your affair. I believe your H was still overseas/out of town. Would you have liked him controling your life at that point? Would have liked him setting a curfew for you?<P>Further, if his teammates are out, and he tells them Nah! got to get home, the Missus wants me home by ... Do you think he could do that and take the kidding he would get. Finally, remember in his mind this was a revenge affair to let you know how it felt. So I suspect that while he is very sorry for what he did, he may be unwilling to completely change his life because of it.<P>Many WS feel that way. <P>Vee, I am not trying to provide excuses for him. What I am saying what your precieve as slights and areas where you don't trust, are not necessarily areas he thinks he can or will change. You have a choice about this now, you can learn to trust him, or you can dwell.<P>Heck, Vee, the fact that he is going out with teammates means he trusts you. You will need to trust also, you really have no choice. He has plenty of opportunity to cheat on you, whether you worry about it or not.<P>Now please feel a little better about this. You mentioned on thing I thought was very telling. He is touching you more, is quiet more, he is telling you he knows you are hurt in his own way. Men don't like to talk about wounds/emotional things, don't want to reopen the wounds. But if you pay attention you will see that he is paying attention to you. He is touching you, he will talk some, he will do little things.<P>He knows your are hurting and it seems he is trying to comfort you. Vee, you two will do fine . He is still feeling guilty and remember you did pretty much the same thing to him, you closed yourself off after discovery and it took months before you would address his issues. <P>It hasn't been as many months yet. So hang in there, you are doing well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL -<P>He and I have argued immensly over his late night hours. This was way before his PA. I mean, this morning he came home around, 2:30 (I think, being blind as a bat I can't see what time it is) I'm not trying to institute a curfew - but jeez - what's a little respect! He admitted that's how he got into this mess - creating a life without me. I mean, is it not a little bit to ask? He never comes home at a decent hour more than 2 days a week. Wouldn't that make anyone dwell on past issues? <P>I'm not being defensive - but I don't do things that bother him. Why can't I be afforded the same courtsey? After my PA, even before I told him, I stayed at home. I'm never out late, I always tell him where I'll be. Once he got mad at me for getting home at 11. Jeez - I went to the mall with my friend to buy a Valentine's gift and we grabed a bite to eat at Applebee's. If you asked him, he thought I was out doing God knows what, again before his d-day (although he suspected but didn't have proof).<P>As far as trust goes, in my book it's earned. Show me I can trust you and I will. It's been a hard realtionship because every year it's been some woman flirting or rumors and what not about his personal life. He's an attaractive guy, but folks don't come at me the same way! So, I'm not exactly confident about this yet. As a WS, I tried to make sure he could trust me, so I'm wondering why it's so hard to make a few concessions. Like instead of 2 in the morning, can't you come home at 12? <P>Last night I had a dream that he came home and told me he had a one night stand. I was hyperventaliting in my dream and when I woke myself up, I couldn't breathe. This morning he asked if I was still hung up on that dream. He's had some similar to mine, so why can't I feel the same way! <P>I guess what it all boils down to is that I hate double standards. I'm a poli sci major, public admin grad student - I believe strongly in equity as most liberal arts folks do - so needless to say, I'm having trouble making it to the next step. Why can't he help me out on this one?!<P>Vee

Hi Vee,<P>You did touch one of my buttons as I obviously did one of yours. Vee, equality is a mathematical concept, that is not found anywhere in nature but the atomic and subatomic levels. Nature isn't even in balance, often the changes are soo slow we think there is.<P>So while you ask for a reasonable (in your view) things and deserve what you are asking for, that isn't how H sees it. Now what to do? Well, it seems to me a POJA is in order. You two need to set some boundaries that both of your agree to. For example maybe he stays out with the boys once a night, but you want to be with him on other nights. Or maybe he limits to so many times a week or a day of the week. Or maybe you two agree on an hour. Or maybe you two can come with something that lets him do these things but he does something for you in return. I don't know how this will work out, but you both need to sort this out.<P>You asked why can't he help you out with this one? Good question. Have you asked him that? It seems to me you two need to improve your communications. But if this has been an ongoing arguement it is obvious that your approach to this has not worked. Now you mentioned that this has been going since before his PA, but was it going on before your affair? I ask because this could still be his way of punishing you. <P>Yeah, I know not fair. God I hate the word fair, don't you? What needs to be done here is to try and understand motives. Then some if not all of the behavior can be addressed. <P>Vee, the main problem it seems to me is that it has been so soon since your found out. Further, I don't think your H has really addressed his guilt. It will come.<P>So hang in there and talk with your H in a Plan A fashion. There are definitely ways to get to men, you just need to discover what particular things will work with your H. Affairs, especially revenge affairs, don't work. It seems to me both of your affairs were in that category.<P>Hang on Vee, time will help as will talking with H over a period of time.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL -<P>Yes this has gone on way before my PA. Which was one of the reasons behind it. Of course, he doesn't get that one either. He was just about always gone. He'd go out and hang out with his military buddies til God knows when. I think that some of this is still a newlywed adjustment thing. We didn't live toghter while he was in the military (4yrs) and the last 2 (which is right now, present day)have been an utter mess, so I knew he would go out but I wasn't home with him. Do you follow me on that one? <P>So, when I would call him pre-PA (mine) he would either 1. be leaving to go out or 2. already gone out. Once during an argument, I accused him of not acting like he was married - ouch coming from the WS right? That wasn't good. I tried to do a nice plan A talk ... "I'm not comfortable with ...". Maybe to him this still sounds like nagging? It must be a man thing. I'm running out of approaches on this one. When we talked about his spending more time with me (during his PA), he said ok, was great for a week, then fell back to his old habits. The OW acknowldged that those were the time he did not see her. I'm getting frustrated! <P>I mean, I do everything! Cook, clean, wash, work, go to school (I'm going all summer until I graduate next year in May). Heck - I get tired of making his plate, washing those darn dishes, and being the breadwinner (he's only working part-time right now). In other words - I'M STRESSED!!!! (Sorry, I'm venting now). My goodness, must I do everything?! <P>Whoops - I've digressed, I can't get him to read SAA with me. I even asked what his needs were, never got an answer, told him I'd have bad days. It's not like I want it fixed right now, but I'm getting frustrated. You know what else, I've lost 7 pounds! I only weighed 112 to begin with, now I weigh 105. <P>Aghhh! I don't know. What's your story - BS or WS? And how did you cope? Or, what works for you? How do you get on the same wavelenth with your W? I mean, do men have a mental block on stuff or what? It's like he doesn't understand that I don't want to cook, make his plate, and wash dishes after working from 8 to 5, going to class from 5:30pm to 8:30pm, and then come home to baby you! Hah! Can't he help me out? Running my bath water would be nice, massaging my feet, getting take out and have it waiting when I get home. <P>I've tried to talk about some of this, but I'm not getting any feedback. I need to know if you understand and if you don't why not? Maybe I just need to go buy Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus or something.<P>PS - sorry I pushed your buttons. You've been a great help! I just don't get it all!<P>Vee

Vee,<P>OK, Where to start here. I know what you mean and I understand where you are coming from I think. Perhaps a little background here. I am neither a BS nor a WS. I came to this board because I was worried about my marriage. It is long and subtle but felt W had fallen out of love. That was well over a year ago. I learned alot from all of the boards but the most from the infidelity board. So I post here, I am addicted I am afraid. It is hard not to follow people and see their marriages improve.<P>Anyway I learned alot about marriages and about myself and realized I was not seeing things correctly. I changed my view of things and also realized I could improve the marriage with what I learned here. I have been doing that and things are going well.<P>Now, realize I am much older than you and so have seen a few more things, so what I am going to say is not necessarily a solution but may give you a slightly different view of things.<P>I am guessing you and H are in your 20's. When I was your H's age, I really enjoyed hanging with the guys. Played sports, bars, girls, etc. I wasn't married. I had decided I wouldn't get married until I found a woman I would rather be with than "the guys". I did find such a woman and have been married for 24 years.<P>What has this got to do with you. Part of what I see with your H is immaturity. Not so much that he doesn't love you or like you or want to be around you, but that he gets validated being around the guys. You mentioned he plays football. This is a team sport that leads to strong bonding amount players. If the bonding isn't there the teams generally stink. So the pull is toward the team. The military is the same way. I have done both.<P>So what to do with your situation? I know I don't have the answer, but if you look at it from a needs stand point it might help. I may have already recommended this to you but I came across a book on a recent trip called "Men made easy" by Oh. I bought it because the title made me laugh, but it does have some good insights on men and how they respond to things. You might find it very useful. I am sure you can find the same information in other books, but this is a small book that I read in barely an hour. This is an advantage to a student like yourself. <P>What I would suggest is to read this book and see if you can come up with a plan. You are Plan Aing now. Keep it up. Talk with H about the hours, but don't make a deal out of it. See if you can identify some needs of his such as admiration, companionship, etc. that you can meet. He is getting something out of going out with the guys and he obviously not adverse to women at least noticing him. Pretty normal, but not good for a marriage.<P>Vee, some of what you want will come with maturity. You two are living in a very artificial world right now: School. It leads to a disconnect between what is really expected in the "real" world and what can be done while in school. School is very rough on marriages. <P>So hang in there, vent here, and do a little detective work, and few experiments. But be aware what you are dealing with is a maturity issue and it will change once everyone is out of school.<P>Take care and God Bless,<P>JL<P>

JL -<P>Ok, I think I can follow you on that one. We are both aries (stubborn in other words) and although I'm younger, I feel a lot older than him. At any rate, we're both pretty opposite in some ways. I'm goofy and fun only with people I know well. as a result, most people think I'm either 1. conceited, 2. mean, or 3. driven, which they admire. My H is 1. funny, 2. a real 'people-person', 3. really goofy with everyone. So, he often views me as a very serious person.<P>The only time he has ever seen me act totally goofy was the night I was so bored, I called my best friend and did a karaoke routine on his radio - I mean microphone and all! I didn't see him watching me from the doorway and when I turned around I screamed! It was pretty funny. But, I'm a really goals oriented and focused individual. That's why we don't have kids. I've got to be able to provide first. So this time next year, I'll be on the boards announcing that I'm pregnant.<P>As far as recreation - he likes playstation games of which his favorite game is football. I don't understand football, but I go to the games for support. I'm a basketball junkie. He would probably like for me to learn how to play, but I just can't sit there for hours on end playing that! I don't mind the car games, but I'm just not into that. We do usually go work out together and just started going swimming together. So I suppose there is hope in that. I'll pick up that book this weekend and take a stab at it.<P>Thanks JL!<BR>Vee

Hi there! Even though I don't know you're story, it sounds like you're making progress. <P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/zbucketmouse" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/zbucketmouse</A> is where my page is. Check it out!:)

yuki -<P>cool page! My sis has a friend who is into anime. I love it although I don't keep up with everything. I noticed that either HBO or Cinemax has started showing anime late at night. I'm a night owl, so I end up watching it from time to time.<P>I'm making progress, but I hate those little insecurity hang-ups that we get from time to time. <BR> <BR>Vee