hello to all - I hope someone can help me. Everyday it is different. Sometimes I feel so confident and other days hopeless. On Thurs. I gave my husband (the WS) a birthday present that I felt was a big emotional risk. It was a mini vacation for just the 2 of us in Nov. I was very fearful that that would bring up some kind of commitment issues but at the same time I wanted us to have something to look forward to together. I was thrilled when he was happy about it and spoke enthusiastically about it. Hooray I thought. Now yesterday he gets into a conflict with my 14 year old son. First I have to explain that unfortunately my son is the one who exposed the affair and previosly to that was the target of a lot of my husband's misplaced anger (safer to be angry at a 14 year old than me I guess) Well my son says to my husband something to the effect of," Why can't you be more like mom she talks to you she doesn't just yell!" And my husband gets very angry at my son because (I guess) he thinks he is never going to get past the affair, and he says as he walks away, "This kind of stuff doesn't make me want to stay here. I should have done what I was going to do!" meaning LEAVE us!! And walks into the house. I see him and he says he is mad at Danny because of the way he spoke to him and he doesn't want to talk to me about it (basic conflict avoider type behavior) The rest of the night he is quiet. In the past I would have interfeared and tried to get my husband to see he was wrong. This time at one point I said they should talt to each other about how they feel and my husband said he would tommorrow (more avoidance) What is going on here?? I can't live like this. Of course my son came and told me what my husband had said. My son has just as much of a problem trusting my husband now as I do. In fact during my husband's abandonmnents my son kept saying to me,"Don't take him back mom. He's a liar." My son is in counseling. But what is going on. Do I have to fear everyday that he is just going to walk out of the house again? To me being in recovery means you both have made the commitment to work it out. But my husband is still caught up in his own problems. The fact that he works with the OW (and she is preg. ) doesn't help. I think my husband still has a lot of anger and I know the answer is time but sometimes I feel like I am doing all of the recovery and he is just here and thinks that that is his main effort. I feel very frustrated today and yesterday I felt great. I am getting tired of living like this how ever when I ask myself what the alternative is I don't want to live like that either and really do want to repair my marraige but it should be both of us working on it right?<BR> A very frustrated Kris

QM:<P>Is Danny your husband's bio son or step son? Knowing that would help a great deal as I have a couple theories.<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip - we have 4 childern all adopted from Asian countries. Danny - 14 Korean, Ellen 11 -Korean. David - 8 Filippino and Lucy 6 - Filippino. Pretty ironic that the OW got preg isn't it? Any theories or input is helpful<BR> Kris

Hello...me, again! You are not going to believe this, but I have a 14 year old son named Danny who my husband picks on big time!!!!!!!! Is this weird, or what? He will let the other kids get away with so much, but not Dan. He comes down so hard on him. I think you said your kids were adopted (right?) but I don't know if it matters or not. My Dan is our bio son. Sometimes I wonder if Dan reminds him of himself (my husband) when he was that age and he doesn't want our son to go through the same hassles or make the same mistakes as he did. Just a theory, don't know if it fits for you or not. I try and keep my mouth shut, too, when my husband starts yelling, but usually later I will say something to him. More often than not, he admits he was wrong and lost his temper...just something about Dan sets him off. Misplaced anger, like you said.<P>Your husband is reacting just like mine did. Let me tell you what he did last month. His wedding band has been off since last fall mostly due to his anger (his words) but I'm sure he didn't want a reminder when he was doing stuff with the OW. Anyhow, in May I made the mistake of telling him that I needed to know if he was committed to me and the marriage. Either you're married or you're not, I needed to know. Sort of an ultimatum about the wedding band. Well, he put the wedding band on the next day. A couple weeks later, after being so nice and affectionate and trying to work on being together, we had a huge blow-out where he took the ring off and threw it against the chimney and said stuff like, "I wish I'd never married you, I hate this, I just want to leave, I'm moving out." yadda,yadda. He drove off, but came back later. And all this hateful stuff came out after I thought WE were making so much 'progress'. My much-belabored point is...they still have these feelings in them of wanting out, the anger, the depression. I also feel like I am the one doing all the work and he feels like he is doing "work" when he decides to come home. Period. All I can say is that time is the key factor. It probably doesn't help that our husbands see the OW at work...a reminder. <P>What helped me the most is that I kept telling myself that I was strong, that I couldn't control him, that I was doing everything I possibly could (Plan A!!) to help this relationship. It took awhile till I actually believed it all, though!! I will have the rollercoaster of days where I feel that this will work, I'm getting over it, etc. etc. and then there will be the days that I just feel overwhelmed and I can't handle being the BIG person anymore, this isn't fair, etc. etc. You just gotta roll with the punches...it is all part of the process. Plus, I have my triggers about the OW that set me off , very painful to deal with. I guess he has triggers ,too,that make him a beast to be with sometimes. <P>Just keep plodding forward, keep the momentum going, because, yes, we are doing most of the work now and that's how it has to be for now. Hey, look at it this way...your husband owes you big-time when you hit menopause!!!!!!

I do understand the rollercoaster. I tell myself everyday that I hate living my life this way. Monday-anger Tuesday-confidence/anger, Wednesday-confidence, Thursday-uttersaddness, Friday-saddness/anger. God only knows what Saturday will be like. I tell myself that I will leave her alone when I feel anything but confidence(thats when I'm the most fun to be with), but unfortunately the other emotions sneek up on me at the wrong times and they all cause LBing in the worst way. Hang in there. Try to be strong for yourself, and make sure Danny and the other children feel secure with you.

QM:<P>OK. I thought maybe you were in a blended family like I was and that I could offer you some insight. Your family dynamics are different from mine although your husband seems to direct his anger towards your oldest son.<P>My husband has always intensely disliked my son from a previous marriage and I have raised his son and his daughter from his previous marriage as my own. There is a blatant imbalance here and my son has truly suffered.<P>My son is now 33 and has emerged from this very disfunctional family wounded but still alive. My son was the one who was short-changed in this family and if I had it to do over, I would never have allowed my husband to treat my son the way he did under any circumstances. I didn't allow it then either, but I wasn't adamant enough, I didn't insist often enough, I didn't follow through with professional help to find out why my husband was so hateful to my son and so hurtful and what he could, we could do to change things.<P>The bottom line here in our house is that my husband is jealous of my son and always has been. He denies it, but he treats my son like an adversary. My son is sweet and kind and sensitive and a really great guy. My husband only focuses and exaggerates my son's shortcomings and flaws. He never compliments his accomplishments and makes light of anything significant he is doing.<P>My husband is the one with the problem and he is supposed to be a mature man, a family LEADER, not a petulant child only interested in himself and how he feels, what he wants and needs at everyone else's expense.<P>Frankly, QM, I am sick to death with the lack of maturity and grace and the gross selfishness of these big baby men who hurt and harm wives and children because of there own shallow self-interests.<P>That is no way for your husband to treat his son. His words and actions and example will have a lasting effect on Danny and the others if he behaves that way in front of them.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

To all - I have often thought that perhaps my husband was a little jealous of my oldest son (who is not an easy person to get along with) because it was him and I for 12 years before we adopted all the kids and things changed so radically. I get along with my son and before DDay I know we even used to double team against my husband in small but insidious ways. My son also has that oldest child of the family ego where he thinks the world revolves around him. That drives my husband crazy. But I'm sure my son feels angry too. For example he asked my husband for money for the movies for today and my husband told him he should use his own money. Then he came to me and asked me . In the past I would have talked my husband (bullied) him into giving him the money. This time I said " I won't interfear with what your father said"<BR> I really hate this rollercoaster feeling. I think we are making progress and then something like this happens. I guess it is one day at a time but some of those days are harder than others. thannks to all<BR> Kris

QM, there may be a problem with your H and his sense of control. Many parents (men in particular) really want kids to behave in an exact fashion. This re-enforces their concept of parenting skills. It is very hard to accept it when your kids have different values, styles, etc. than you have. Lot's of families fall out over this, not just ones with an infidelity conflict. I have seen some parents loose it as their kids get into teens. I raised a step-daughter & about this age I know I lost it. Didn't understand her attitudes, etc. Lot's of bad family stuff.<P>Anyway, your H may just be running out because he cannot appropriately deal with this. And kids usually "run away" from family dynamics with bad friends, drugs, etc. When you do not learn the appropriate ways to deal with family dynamics, terrible stuff can happen. Once again, I have been there. Step D went into drugs & spent 18 months in a rehab facility at 16 yrs old. But something good out of that was intense FAMILY counseling. There you can learn how to quit undermining your H. And he can learn how to accept his role as a father, along with your son accepting his role in the family. Your son needs to get out of the conflict with you & H. Period & immediately. It is ok for him to express how he feels over things, but that is about it. No giving you advise.<P>And you cannot continue to "fix stuff". All of this is VERY co-dependant behavior. Each one of you are feeding off the other. Have you read much on that subject? Melody Beatty has written tons on that subject. It was such an eye opener for me. Never knew I was a flaming co-dependant until I read about it! <P>I know it is about impossible to work on relationship with H, and work on family stuff, and also work on yourself. Boy, have I been there & still am there on lot's of these issues. But it is like a huge puzzle that all inter-twines. Family puts pressure on marriage. Marriage issues make family stuff more crazy, etc. I hope that your son is not in counseling on his own, but that it is joint with you and H, or at least with you if H will not come. There is seldom just one "broken member" in a family, it comes in a package.<P>Hope I am not sounding too strong or condeming. I am sure that my history has colored my vision of things to a degree. But the family stuff we did was the best thing I ever did for myself & my kids. <P>Take care.. Carolyn

Taking Care- I don't think your post is too strong. I am truly interested in all opinions and your posts are one's I look forward too. You are right about the family dynamic - it has really affected my husband and my relationship. One of his complaints is that I try to control all parenting situations. In retrospect I did interfere a lot but he seemed to be lashing out at the kids and had difficulty accepting the very varied people who they are. I realize now that a lot of his lashing out or seeming inappropriate anger or crankiness had to do with a host of maritial dissatisfactions and not as specifically on the children's behavior. Your first 2 sentences really describe his attitude. His brother and sister are a lot older than him so he was really like an only child grownig up. He didn't grow up with siblings fighting over seats in the car as I did. I know there are a lot of unhealthy aspects to this. I don't know that much about codependent behavior but would be interested in learning about it. As I said I am truly interested in anything that can help matters. I thought codependent behavior had to do with alcohol or other type of abuses like that. It makes me sad to seemingly portray my husband as some kind of monster because for the bulk of our 23 year marrige he has been a loving and kind husband and father. That's the person I want back now.<BR>Catnip - I agree also - I am sick of the lack of maturity on my husband's part (maybe that is how he could find a 22 year old interesting!) Sometimes if I listen to he and my son argue I think to myself what I am really stuck with is 2 adolescents. I really do think sometimes in my husband's case it is a case of arrested development. Another thing I hope therapy will solve or help at least. <BR>And after reading my responses sometimes I wonder to myself why do I still want him? Because he is my best friend. I love him and for all his faults like him better than anyone else in the world. I do hope to God we can work this out because I'm getting tired and it hasn't even been 1 month!!

Hey, Kris, Hang in there. I read the Divorce Busting Book by Michelle Wiener-Davis when we went through this. The basis of her book was that one person in a relationship by changing the dynamics, making themselves demonstrate their independance, could change the relaionship and bring the other home and back into it. <BR>You do a lot of things you want to do, ask him along but go on if he refuses. Always remember to say "I love you" check out the book and leave it out where he can read it if he decides to become proactive. Good luck, TG

Texasgirl - thanks for reminding me about the book Divorce Busting. I had checked it out of the library while he was not living at home but at the time was too devastated to really read it. I'm going to get it out Mon. and reread it and leave it in a very prominent place! How is the move going? Smoothly I hope.Thanks again for some good advice<BR> Kris

<BR>Catnip writes:<P>"Frankly, QM, I am sick to death with the lack of maturity and grace and the gross<BR> selfishness of these big baby men who hurt and harm wives and children because of ther own shallow self-interests."<BR> <BR> i know men aren't the only offenders, but at this point in my life, the above statement totally reflects my sentiments....to a "t". you could substitute "big baby men" with "predatory OW" and the shoe would fit, too.<BR>i'm just venting. i am so stressed over finances, life in general, that i hardly slept a wink last night. my head aches and my stomach hurts. not looking for sympathy, just wishing my life hadn't taken this nasty turn. sadwife_in_CO<BR>

QM, the co-dependancy thing is such an all encompassing concept. And basically the theme is in any problematic situation (over bearing in-laws, rebelious child, etc.), it takes two to tango. Somewhere in all this both parties (or three parties, etc.) have some role they are playing. And they are codependant on each other to play those roles, or else the problem stops. In other words, all parties have to keep doing the goofy behavior. When one stops the other has no one to blame & bicker with. So basically Plan A & the concepts Texasgirl mentioned about one person changing can change all the dynamics are in the same theme. When someone quits playing the well established roles things start changing for everyone.<P>Sometimes the folks who are still in the "game" (your son & H) are stunned by the change & won't know how to go forward. They may even resent you for changing your role (you are now an understanding loving wife & mother who will not over-ride her H authority with kids). Boy that change in things will force THEM to do something different! While at the library get a copy of "Co-dependant No More" by Beatty. It really isn't just about alcoholics. Easy reading. <P>When my step-D was at home I was constantly being pulled apart by the manipulation of her & my H. I was always fixing things & "morphing" myself into whatever type of person they needed me to be. I took blame for her anger at her father. I also took over all parenting so he wouldn't be stressed. Then every few weeks they would both blow up at me because their relationship was crappy. Whew... I really don't care to recall those years. As I flew into the counselors office one day, two babies in tow, dropping off this kicking screaming 15 yr old to be "fixed" by the counselor... it all sort of melted down. The poor counselor took me into her office & told me to read this book, if nothing else for the sake of my babies. She explained that she was concerned for me & it was the first time she had ever met me. She was right. And from that day forward I started a personal recovery. I wish I had done more. If I could have taken it completely forward I would have been in better relationship with H. The relationship I am now trying to build with Plan A & marital recovery.<P>All this stuff really loops back & forth into it's self. So much of this recovery is about just being a honest, loving person. No mind games. No holding back cause he holds back. No you did this so I do that. My God, all that stuff is SUCH work. Being a simple honest person is really easier. But most folks have run into so few of those types in their lifetime that they REALLY won't trust that behavior! Ha! <P>Let go, love, be honest in all you do. Take care with your actions & make sure your intentions are clear when you speak or act. It feels so CLEAN inside! Maybe what Jesus instructed us all to do? What a wise man.<P>Take care... Carolyn

Another valueable tool involves using "I messages". Example, When the two of you fight, I get really stressed out. What you end up doing is not being accusatory, which puts the other person on the defensive. When they go on the Defensive, then they attack, which does not help anything.<BR> You might see if you can get him to make those statements to your son and as well as your son doing the same. Maybe he and your son need to sit down with counselor and let your son tell him what he thinks of the situation. I remember the night our 15 year old sat down and told us that our talking about a divorce really "sucked". He thought we were stupid and did not love him or his siblings anymore. That was a real eyeopener for my H. He still thought what he was doing affected only him and me. Ha. Good luck TG<BR>

Again excellent advice from Taking Care and Texas Girl _ I don't know what " I'd do without all you guys. Since yesterday I have given a lot of thought to the family dynamic and so much of what you say Carolyn makes sense. I will also be checking that book out of the library. I think my husband doesn't know what to think of my changed behavior ( already posted about how he thinks I can't change when he did the big screwup!) but the advice received about consistency and patience is good - if we can hold out that long. My son, I think does resent this change in attitude because he doesn't come out the winner so often. When I think back to how my husband must of felt always coming in second (motre like 6th ) best to all the kids I cringe. Thanks again <BR> Kris