Lighthouse -<P>Thanks for your post. It made my day in more ways than you can imagine.

It's all kinda sad, the way I look at the OW. She was supposed to be one of my better friends. She complained about her h all the time, yet the traits she complained about are the same traits my H has! He loses his keys, he is occassionally thoughtless, he doesn't get hints......silly things that she would complain to me about her h.<BR>I still felt very bad for her and tried to be a good friend and listened to her and offered suggestions on how to fix things. She had been with my h at one time, a long time ago when life was simpilier for her and she decided that she wanted him again. My "friend" went after him right in front of me! And I, believing the best in people, thought she couldn't do that to me....Does it make it any easier to know the betrayer's side? She knew that we were in counseling and having problems and she used that information to make life worse for me. I wish I hadn't known her. I wish I hadn't invited her and her h over for dinner on both Christmas and Thanksgiving (those holidays will forever be tarnished with the ghost of the past) and I wish I could trust again completely.<BR>Now, not only do I have trust issues with my H but with my friends as well. Thanks to knowing her. Who wants to know the devil?<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragantraces:<BR>Sometimes affairs are truly errors in judgment. In my case, desperate loneliness became unbearable and I was too immature and to find a good solution. It is an explanation, but absolves me of nothing. <P>Is this the same as if my spouse were trying to take care of me, trying to be a good partner, but wasn’t able to meet all my needs because I wasn’t telling or wasn’t capable of telling what they are? Is it the same as if I were to have gotten bored and lonely because my spouse worked really hard, taking care of what we both had agreed needed taking care of, and was too tired to play with me at the end of the day? How about if, after 20 years of an apparently good and stable if lackluster marriage I start feeling a little taken for granted, or maybe a little, well, old. Along comes my very kind co-worker to offer to take care of all those things my spouse has let go. How about if my spouse is in a persistent vegetative state for 2 years? Ten years? Should I divorce? What if I don’t divorce, but allow myself to develop a love relationship with someone? And what if my spouse then wakes up? WHO is what then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>reply posted by FA<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For me, they are one in the same. From the scenerios that you have provided, it all boils down to communicating to one's spouse about whatever is felt that is missing, failure to do so means that they are all one in the same, at least to me. Waiting for a spouse to "wake up" without communicating that you have some type of problem is unfair to the marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With the exception of the comatose partner scenario, I am right there with you. In none of those situation has the spouse abandoned the relationship. (My husband had done exactly that, he just kept didn't want to give up the advantages of being married to me, as he would have had to do with a divorce.)<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragantraces:<BR>It even goes this far: it is much more likely that the betrayed spouse will experience the additional betrayal by friends or even family than that the unfaithful spouse will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>reply posted by FA<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>While I may experience additional betrayals from friends or family members, they never promised me to remain faithful to me, while my spouse did. The trust that is given to friends and family does not compare to the trust that was bestowed upon a spouse. The betrayal of friends or family can not, nor will it ever come close to the pain that is brought by the betrayal of the person with whom you entrusted your heart..........ever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Again I agree with you completely. My point is, really, that as a society we do not really disapprove of infidelity. We are more inclined pay lip service to the concept the infidelity is a bad thing, and then support the betrayer and turn against the betrayed. And fewer and fewer people stand against it for fear of rocking some boat, or appearing un-cool, or old fashioned. <P>We, as a society, allow our ethics to be designed by the same people who decided that looking like too stupid to figure out how to tie your shoes, or too stupid to figure out that your pants are 8 sizes to big is cool. Unfortunately, real people, not Calvin People, get hurt; real marriages, not Mountian Dew marriages, get destroyed.<BR>We, as a society, get what we are asking for. We are Way Cool.<BR> <BR>Before someone jumps in and says, "It's simplistic to blame commercialism…" let me say, I don't blame commercialism. I simply point out people who won't think for themselves who have the marketers dream Herd Mentality, will by Pet Rocks and Pop Morality. We bestow tacit approval when we are oh! so politely silent. Of course, everybody gets 100% of the responsibility for their own actions, regardless of who gave permission. Lastly, if one choses to disregard the power of disapproval I would suggest research into MADD, or maybe the changes wrought by domestic violence laws which made arrests much less discretionary. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR>dragantraces, you wrote:<P>"Would you ever confront someone you knew to be having an affair, whether they were a married person or not? Would you ever denounce them? Would you ostracize them?"<P>No, I would not do any of those things. I would, however, not consort with the infidel and I would very gently let them know that I could not be around them as long as they were committing adultery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That sounds a lot like ostracism! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would also make sure that the betrayed spouse was told. If the person were married, I would tell the person that they had one week to tell their spouse that they were cheating; and that if they did not 'fess up, I would call the spouse and tell them about the affair.<P>If the person were single and having an affair with a married person, I would tell the single cheater that I was phoning up the MP's spouse to inform them of the affair if they did not break if off with them in a week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Telling the spouse sounds a lot like denunciation! And <I>all</I> of it sounds like confrontation!! Good for you!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will not tolerate cheaters in any way, shape or form, and will do whatever it takes to put an end to adultery, if I know of it. I wish to God that someone would have had the guts to come forward and tell me. Finally, someone did, long after the fact. But ironically, I feel resentful of this person, even though I am glad to have my suspicions confirmed. Why could this person have not told me as soon as he found out my H was cheating? Wasn't this something that I should have known about? Where was this "friend" then when I needed him the most? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Probably sitting back being eaten up inside by the conflict of having information he felt you should be given to you, knowing that the world would view him as an 'informant' if he told you. And almost assuredly put off by the knowledge that we tend to 'kill the messenger' in these lovely little scenarios. Be magnanimous, this guy probably did the best he could. Besides, how many others knew? Did anybody else step up?

How many people knew? Oh, many. Many of our mutual friends knew. And only one came out and said something. And another one of them - God knows who - emailed me anonymously with some more details. But no one, during the time it was happening, had the guts to come up to me and tell me that my H was compromising my health by not only sleeping with one other woman, but several. <P>I think if you read my post, re., the friend who bagged married men, you'll see why I feel it important to tell the betrayed. This is not just an issue of the heart; this is an issue of health, of life and death. We can no longer pretend that we live in a society where getting the "scarlett letter" (herpes) is the worst thing that can happen. <P>*If* the heroin user my ex-friend had been sleeping with (not having protected sex) had turned out to be HIV positive, and if she had in turn passed it on to the MM, and he to his wife, and she to their unborn child, can you imagine how guilty I would have felt, knowing that I had information that could have saved their lives? When someone is engaging in a potentially deadly situation, damned straight I'll let the spouse know. For their own protection, not because it has to do with ostracizing the betrayer. Yeah, I know. People like me are a cheater's worst nightmare, and the betrayed's best friend. Somehow I am okay with that knowledge.<P>belld

Lighthouse: Thank you very much for the good story.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragantraces:<BR><B>It seems to me that there is a vast continuum involved here. ...Almost no one will <I>actively</I> refuse to accept cheating behavior in friends or acquaintances. It is commonplace for infidelity to be “politely overlooked” or even aided and abetted. ...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know about the continuum. Wrong is wrong. Is it more wrong to cheat on a woman with whom you have no children over a woman who has 4? Is it more wrong to cheat after only a month of marriage vs. 25 years? Is it more wrong to cheat on someone who abused you over someone who didn't? Wrong is wrong. As you said, a thief is still a thief, but I believe what makes one thief "better" than another is his willingness to stop stealing.<P>As for politely overlooking, a friend and I just had a conversation yesterday about how nobody ever tells anyone anything. I decided then and there that I would! I have two acquaintances that I enjoy hanging out with who I just discovered are cheating on their girlfriends. Guess what? I don't want to be around them anymore. I am quitting my job because I work intimately with a woman who has a baby with a married man when she was married to someone else. She is now divorced, but is currently woo-ing another married man. I don't want it in my life. I have not made the break yet, but when I do (and it will be soon), I will be sure to tell them the reason why. It might not make much difference to them, but it will make me feel better.

I don't know you guys...<P>I don't profess to be near as learned as many of you. Your posts impress me and make me think. But let me tell you what I've learned.<P>When I first came to the MB boards I would see a post from a betrayer, and feel very hard inside. I didn't want to see what they had to say. It hurt to read how they felt about their OP.<P>Gradually, I began to read them. My mind opened and I learned more from the betrayers that post on this board than anyone. In "real" life I would never get the chance to hear from people in the position of the betrayers. Oh yeah, we betrayed will tell our ugly stories and get a ton of sympathy. I know I have. But who can the betrayers go to? Well, due to my mind being opened, a few have now come to me.<P>Through my own situation, I now know that three of the people I love best in the world are betrayers. I helped one change her life. I told her all about withdrawl and disclosure. She broke it off and I have never been more proud of anyone in my life.<P>From my other two friends I learned about how strong the pull is toward the OP. I also learned about that from NoMas, momma, and so many others here. Sure made me understand my H better and realize he was/is hurting just as much as I was, if not more.<P>If we close off our lives to those we love we may be giving up an opportunity to help them in their time of need. <P>I used to be pretty black and white about these issues...boy, now my grey area has widened by a lot. I will not cut anyone out of my life that is in pain and needs me. They heal me when I help heal them.<P>allison

popeye,<P>Sixteen months ago, or even for awhile after discovery, I might have believed that OP's could be good people who did wrong. What I have the problem with is not so much the affair, no matter how wrong, but the harm that she has done to my children, my H, and even to her own children. What kind of person would allow a MM to move in with her and her children, especially teenagers? What kind of example is that? What kind of person would severely limit the amount of time a father could spend with his children? Forget standard visitation - he doesn't see them nearly that often. He has told me that the reason they are only allowed to visit about once a month, two at a time, for one night, is because he is willing to do anything to maintain the supposedly civil atmosphere of the OW's house, and apparently 4 young children make that difficult. What kind of woman would hang up on me when I called to convey an important message to my H, when my children were there, even though I had not called him in a year? What kind of woman would come up with a flimsy excuse to send my kids home just before bedtime so they wouldn't be there for Easter? What kind of woman would sit next to my H while he was talking to me and laugh at me? What kind of woman would show so little respect for my H that she would tell him what to say to me on the phone? Could she make it any more obvious that she thought he couldn't handle it on his own? <P>No, I don't know why my H goes along with it, except that he is a conflict avoider, and I think always has been very leary of doing anything that could cause people to withdraw their love for him. <P>

when the cheater is a person or acquaintance we have at times more compassion and forgiveness than when it is our spouse. Personally I have experienced friends that cheated and I have remained friends with them while condeming their behavior. My wife I have stayed with but I have more difficulty with her. The thoughts I have of her are those of rage and anger and her being a slut. Its hard and I know only time will change those feelings

AZ Allison<P>Good post. I just thought I'd tell you how much I appreciated your thoughts.

Allison,<P>That was a wonderful post! (And not because you mentioned me!)<P>I admire what you have learned. I'm so glad that you've experienced so much understanding despite what you've had to go through. You are a truly, sincere person with a HUGE heart! <P>I know that all of us here on MB have been through hell and back, whether we're a BS or WS. I'm not condoning what betrayers have done, but those of us here came here for help. If it wouldn't have been for MB, I may still be flopping back and forth between my H and OM. I can't say I don't still struggle, but that struggle has been easier to control. (Especially w/the help of my friends here on MB! )<P>There have been SO MANY people here on MB that have affected my life. Some touch my heart very deeply, some make me cry, some make me angry and want to scream, some discourage me, some I just ignore, and some encourage me immensely! I think every person here deserves to "speak his/her mind", even though it may hurt others. We have to take the good w/the bad. And that's why we can relate to some better than others. If a BS can learn something from a WS, or vice versa, that is a wonderful thing! The truth may hurt, on both sides, but it can help, too. <P>I'll get off my soap box now! <P>I just want you all that are close to my heart to know that you are! Most of you should know! And if you don't, you should! <P>

SKM and Momma,<P>We just learn from each other don't we? I am sitting here with tears in my eyes...no I don't have PMS...<P>You are the ones that helped me truly find a way to change. A bunch of people that I will never lay eyes on...I have no idea what you look like, what your children and homes are like, what your favorite foods are. But you give me hope every day. You make me look at things realisticaly. You calm me down and get me back on track. Every day you do this and get nothing in return. It's kinda awesome isnt' it?<P>allison

**There have been SO MANY people here on MB that have affected my life. Some touch my heart very deeply, some make me cry, some make me angry and want to scream, some discourage me, some I just ignore, and some encourage me immensely! I think every person here deserves to "speak his/her mind", even though it may hurt others. We have to take the good w/the bad. And that's why we can relate to some better than others.**<P>I've been visiting a few of these recovery forums for over a year now, some posting - mostly reading, and I've read many things that have helped to clear the fog, and move me back along the right track. Some AWESOME posts in this thread, and this bit up above about covers it for me - and because I think the same principle applies in face to face relationships, and encounters, too. <P>We all have our "boo boos" to deal with in life. I'm not in the habit of scaling them, or imagining mine less or greater than others' downfalls and errors. I don't think of it as my business, for sitting right next to me everyday are people just as beautiful, as well as just as flawed in their humanity -(one way or another) as myself. For my own growth, I feel very strongly that I *need* learn to embrace everyone, for some of it is but the mirror's reflection, and some of it represents things I need to learn along the way...and maybe the hard way. Through my own experiences, I've also learned that there is quite often much pain involved in the areas I struggle with, and need to learn from the most. <P>There is an equal share to learn from my own mistakes, my neighbor's mistakes, and the people who I believe have wronged me, too - and because those same folks now sadly remind me of how I've wronged others along the way. I can love them, (and myself) - though not necessarily the behavior, through it *all*. <P>This thread has been wonderful to read...thanks so very much all of you insightful teachers. <P>Delilah

AZ Allison, Momma, Delilah - I'm the one crying now. Can we have a cyber-hug <P>This thread was a little intimidating at first - so I just lurked. If I can help some one learn from my mistakes, somehow that lessens the pain - that's why I keep coming back for more, I guess. <P>We can all agree, we can all disagree, we can all agree to disagree (you get the picture), but if we don't learn through this process, then where is the hope? Thanks to all of you for giving me hope.

Curious, isn't it, that it is so hard for us to see ourselves as the bad guy? <P>When I was having affair I never once felt that I was betraying my spouse. He'd so completely abandoned me that could muster no sympathy for him. However, I truly felt that I was betraying myself; my standards my values. Regardless of how lousy my marriage was, I knew the only honourable course of action was divorce, and still I didn't do it. The fact that I was only 20 at the time explains a bit, but not much. I was a disgrace to myself. But I did learn. Not the right and wrong of it. I already knew that. I learned to honour myself. I did see that I was the bad guy, and I hated the idea that someone could say that about me and be right(not that anyone ever did!). <P>In all sincerity, I wish I could find precise words that meant exactly "the spouse who betrayed", "the spouse who was betrayed', and "the other person". What we usually use are too cumbersome and the others are too specific. "Whore" is actually a synonym for prostitute and means doing it for money. "Slut" means a sexually promiscuous woman. There is a big difference between what that conjures up in my mind and a woman who has slept with 2 men in her life, even if one is as a party to an affair. Besides, where is the male counterpart? Personally, I use that same word. "Paramour" is much too pretty a word, as is "lover", besides spouses are lovers. "Mistress" has a very European sense of second wife. Not at all what we are speaking of. And again there is no male equivalent. "Cuckold" actually has the vague implication of children being involved (it derives from the cuckoo), and is too archaic. Besides, it makes the guy sound like a Wally Cox characature, certainly not an approprite description of most of these men.<BR>Maybe there is no point. It is likely that less loaded words would eventually have similar meanings anyway.<P>"'Tis an inconsiderate affection with which we flatter ourselves, and that represents us <I>to ourselves</I> other than we truly are…" <BR>--Michel de Montaigne (italics are mine -DT)<p>[This message has been edited by dragantraces (edited July 18, 2000).]

Here's a cyber hug for you guys! (You have such wonderful ideas, SKM!) <P>{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Thanks for all the wonderful comments! This what makes all the h*ll we've <B>ALL</B> been through bearable! You guys/gals mean the world to me!<P><BR>Allison, <BR>You touched my heart, again!! I'm glad you can get hope out of the crap we've done to ourselves. (Nice way to put it, huh!) But, we really do help each other!

I do not believe it is judgmental to say that affairs are wrong and that people who commit adultery have committed a sin. Strictly speaking, as I understand it through what I have come to believe through Bible study and contemplation, being judgmental would be saying that God will condemn a person for a particular sin and that God would never give them forgiveness. Saying adultery or any other wrong is a sin and calling wrong wrong is not judgmental. JMHO.

Exactly, Lady M. As long as one is still in the process of committing adultery, one is in the process of sinning. That is what made it so very difficult for me to accept about my situation. I have sinned before, and I will confess to those sins. I have also learned, through this process, to "sin no more." Why is such a simple process so difficult for my H?

Popeye,<BR>i am so angry at OW and H , I dont think MB would let me post what I really would like to say.