I'd like some feedback as to how people define an EA. I'm particularly interested in definitions where the two people have never met face to face--the internet, phone, mail. Where does opposite sex friendship in these cases end and an EA begin?

Speaking as one who has been involved deeply with an internet relationship (which grew) and in the process of "untangling" this heart and repairing the damage here at home....<P>I would have to say you 'cross the line' from a friendship to an EA when you begin to actually look forward and delight in sharing and communicating with the OP more than your own spouse. Those would be the first warning lights. The 'danger-bells' start ringing when you began sharing things with the OP that should normally be reserved as topic for just you and your spouse, intimate things, AND....when you find yourself actually avoiding bringing up your conversations with this OP with your spouse...you are involved with an EA. And just as some personal insight....from experience...you tend to 'let your guard down' on the internet...feeling "safe" behind the screen, thinking nothing could ever happen.<P>Believe me....I know something about this.<P>And that are my thoughts...as usual, I stand to be corrected.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 17, 2000).]

I define an an actual affair as a aituation where physical contact has occurred (even just a kiss). However there are other situations I would consider just as dangerous to a marriage and just as much as a betrayal. the first thing I found out about OW (right at the beginning) was that after she left H's place of work she continued to call him, ask him out etc. Of course he didn't mention this to me. When I caught him in contact with her by pressing redial on our home phone I was crushed. He then fessed up to his "friendship". Said they just "talked about things". Puke. When I asked how come he never mentioned this so called friendship to me he said "Well, you don't exactly tell your wife your 23 year old former secretary calls you all the time and asks you out" If you're not going to take her up on it you sure do!!!! He knew it was totally inappropriate and of course it turned into an affair. Any situation where one spouse shares personal info with a person of the opposite sex, talks to them or sees them when the other spouse is unaware is a totally dangerous situation.<P>Personally I don't understand the whole cyberaffair thing. Sorry to anyone who has ben involved in one but somehow I find it bizarre to become sexually involved on the computer with someone you've never met, not to mention dangerous and scary. If my H had been involved with this I probably would have thought him so creepy I don't know if I wpould have wanted to save the marriage or not. I know it's common though.

This has been discussed on this board a few times before, and as NoMas and fairydust have already shown, definitions differ.<P>So here's mine: An affair is occurring whenever one partner is engaging in a pattern of behavior that they would not exhibit in the presence of their spouse and, in fact, keep secret from their spouse.<P>Therefore, I disagree with NoMas and fairydust in some ways. I don't think it has to go on long enough to take precedence over a spouse to be an affair, and I don't think it requires physical contact to be an affair.<P>My husband's affair began, to me, when he began talking to and seeing another woman, sneaking around to do it, and keeping it a secret from me. That was several weeks before any inappropriate physical contact. It continued for several weeks after their one physical encounter. So, I believe that their affair began the first time they met secretly and continued until he told me the truth.<P>Affairs cannot exist without secrecy, and I believe that is the first stage of an affair. My thoughts only, and open to disagreement.<P>Peppermint

Fairydust...<P>You bring up a legitimate point in expressing your bewilderment over internet involvement with ‘strangers’. I suppose it is human nature to think of things that are foreign to us as being ‘creepy’, as you put it. Allow me to shed some light on this.<P>First of all...do you not read at least one or two letters every year in “Dear Abby” about some couple that get hooked up writing through her support of the military soldiers overseas throughout the world? Perfect strangers start out as ‘pen-pal’, and maybe with the eventual exchange of some pictures, they begin to correspond by letter over a period of time. Through writing, they reveal things about themselves, their hearts, dreams, struggles...and all in the safety of a pen and paper thousands of miles away from their new ‘friend’. Does it really seem strange that two hearts...two souls...can be drawn together in this fashion? It seems like over the years, I have read countless testimonies of these couples (soldiers and such) who married right after they finally met up in person. It actually is kind of romantic to hear these stories.<P>So really, what is different when people ‘email’ instead of using pen and paper? In fact, the feelings can develop even faster as there is a much quicker response time and almost instant feedback! And technology has afforded us the opportunity to exchange snap-shot pictures just as easily.<P>Then, add the amazing “instant messenger” chat-box, and you have just taken the level of communication up one more notch. In my case, the phone calls followed. We are not talking about getting involved with “machines, aliens, or lifeless beings” here. We actually communicated with other human beings...just like yourself...who have feelings...hearts...souls...needs...etc. Granted, there are those “creepy types” who make it a point to pry on innocent young people out there for devious motives. But again, citing my own experience, two humans who are nice people, believe in God...etc, etc, met ‘on-line’ and began corresponding. In my case, this was new to me. I felt “safe” that nothing could ever seriously come of it. The relationship grew into an EA as we began to write more and more. Sooner or later, emotions kick into gear and began to alter our common sense. The rest they say, is...history.<P>Oh...would you consider it creepy to become 'sexually involved' with a person you never even MET... until your wedding day? That does happen quite a bit around the world in cultures who have arranged marriages. And the reason that sounds so 'creepy' to us...is because it is just not the way we do it here in America. :-)<P>Hope that helps some in your understanding.

Pepperment...<P>Just read your post after posting mine.<P>I think the question was trying to define what an Emotional Affair is. And I would not suggest that and EA can began upon 'first meeting?" Would you not agree that "flirting" would be the seeds that lead to an EA, and then a PA?<P>I would think flirting is just as inappropriate for married people to do as well. And anyone with half a brain would probably try to 'curb' his 'flirtations' with someone else if his/her spouse was also present. <P>I do think we can begin 'flirting' innocently, not even aware of it, and then an observant spouse can pick up on it and say something which is often met with denial or ridicule.<P>But I do feel strongly that these things happen in stages...and grow over time.<P>I would not even define a "one-night-stand" as an "affair". That makes it no less wrong.<P>Not wanting to be argumentive here...just throwing in my opinions. :-)

I think that what Peppermint said is a very realistic litmus test, especially if you are really serious about Truth, rather than a definition which you can use to excuse something which really is an affair. Would you want your spouse to know what you are saying, writing, reading, doing, thinking, feeling, etc. in this relationship with someone else?<P><I>If your spouse regards or would regard the relationship as a betrayal, it is an affair.</I> The distinction between whether it is an Emotional or Physical Affair is not only obvious, but in the context of the potential for destruction, it is irrelevent. Each alone can be sufficient to explode a marriage.

"Where does opposite sex friendship in these cases end and an EA begin?"<P>Your question has taken on a life of its own, but thank you for opening the topic. I realize you were interested in internet friendships that become EAs but some of these answers are meaty and I want to comment and second them.<P>NoMas, your "begin to actually look forward to and delight in sharing and communicating with the OP more than your own spouse" Seconded. "When you find yourself avoiding bringing up the topics of conversation with your spouse" - Comment: For about 3 years my H wrote to his BestFriend and somehow never mentioned that he was doing this. I think the secretive nature of the writing showed a deeper emotional connection than he would acknowledge. <P>Fairydust said (I'm having trouble accessing how to quote these in my post) where one spouse shares personal information with a person of the opposite sex, and doesn't let the spouse know what they were talking about, is what I found in the letter in his briefcase. He had been asking this OW how to help ME with a personal problem without asking me if it was okay to tap into her "vast wisdom". This was a betrayal of trust and I forgave and we tried to become family friends. Bogus. <P>Peppermint said: <BR>(I believe it was Peppermint; I'm having trouple negotiating the boards, cutting pasting etc. so forgive me if it wasn't you!)<BR>"An affair is occurring wheneve rone partner is engaging in a pattern of behavior that they would not exhibit in the presence of their spouse and, in fact, keep secret from their spouse." [The letters he wrote secretly]<P>"I don't think it has to go on long enough to take precedence over the spouse to be an affair, and I don't think it requires physical contact to be an affair." [Seconded]<P>Now NoMas's reply to Fairydust: <BR>"Does it really seem strange that two hearts...two soursl... can be drawn together in this fashion?" <P>and "feelings can develop even faster as there is a much quicker response time and almost instant feedback!" Comment: My H now e-mails back and forth from work to the OW, his BestFriend.<P>Finally, I want to give credit to whomever wrote this last one, but in copying the posts to Word, I edited out your name: But what you wrote was important: "I think that what Peppermint said is a very realistic litmus test, especially if you are really serious about Truth, rather than a definition which you can use to excuse soemthing which really is an affair. The distinction between whether it is an Emotioanl or Physical Affair is not only obvious, but in the context of the potential for destruction, it is irrelevant. Each alone can be sufficient to explode a marriage."<P>Thank you. I needed that!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited July 17, 2000).]

NoMas,<P>Hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I took the question as meaning extramarital affair. <P>My impression is that you believe if the betrayers are "in love" the affair is some deep spiritual experience that those of us not fortunate enough to experience this simply cannot understand. My opinion is that is pretty much crap.<P>Infidelity is infidelity. Claiming that you are "in love" with the person you are cheating with makes it no less wrong, nor any more excuseable.<P>As to one-night stands not being affairs, let's just call it all what it is: adultery. No shades of grey. <P>And I will agree that it is wrong for married to people to flirt. I do not agree that people flirt without realizing it. I also don't believe that people have affairs without realizing what they are doing is wrong and will hurt their spouses.<P>You know the bible very well. Does it give levels of adultery? Does it excuse cheating if the cheaters are "in love"?<P>Peppermint

Pepperment...<P>You missed my point entirely!!!!<P>I was first, trying to explain how two people can grow very fond of each other through coorespondance...be it letters my mail, or electronic mail. There really is no difference. <P>Second....I do think there are "progressions" of affairs. Would you suggest that if a married man smiles at an attractive woman in the elevator or even would wink at her that he is having an "affair"...or just "flirting"? Yes, the behavior is still inappropriate, but I hardly think you can call that an affair. I thought my original definition was reasonably fair and balanced. There really is a difference between an EA and a PA as well. Yes...both are wrong and can be very destructive.<P>I know Jesus drew a pretty hard line in the sand when he implied that if a man "looked lustfully at a woman in his heart, that he had already commited adultery". Now while that verse brings up a lot of discussion, I sure don't think He was suggesting that since you "thought about it, you may as well go on and act upon it".<P>You also said:<P>"My impression is that you believe if the betrayers are "in love" the affair is some deep spiritual experience that those of us not fortunate enough to experience this simply cannot understand. My opinion is that is pretty much crap."<P><BR>I am puzzled over this. I'm not even sure I understand what you are suggesting here. I never once ever tried to justify my "falling in love" with another woman. Not once. And in no way did I ever suggest it was some 'spirtual experience' that you or anyone else could not understand.<P>I think one thing that became very apparent to me here on these boards, and I would hope you could agree with me here...is that you have a host of folks here who are in a lot of pain. Some self-inflicted, yes, but nevertheless, hurting people. Does it make sense for a woman in the depths of labor pains to argue with a man passing a kidney stone who is hurting more? Pain...is pain.<P>You also said:<P>"As to one-night stands not being affairs, let's just call it all what it is: adultery. No shades of grey."<P>Agreed. It is adultery. But we were orginally trying to define what an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR was....and for some reason, we crossed some wires here.<P>You seemed a bit irate with me....not sure what I said to set you off.<BR>:-) <P><BR>

NoMas,<P>Believe me, spending time debating with you is something that I have NO interest in. Nor do I care to read your in depth explanations of how you came to fall in love over the internet, of how your wife failed to meet your needs, or of all the pain you are suffering because of YOUR choice to cheat. So I don't.<P>As I stated earlier, I took the question to be about what how individuals define an extramarital affair. I gave MY definition of an extramarital affair. It is different from yours. I didn't say that I was right and you were wrong, only that I believe that line is crossed much sooner than you seem to think.<P>You also missed my point. I said a PATTERN of behavior, meaning several occurrances, not a "smile in an elevator". And you know what? If my husband wanted to smile at another person, or talk to another woman, he would do it with me there or not. Nothing wrong with it. <P>But if he did it with the feeling that he would not want me to know about it, or said or did things he would not want me to see or know about, then it would be wrong. And if he continued to meet the other woman and say and do things he did not want me to see or know about, he would have crossed the line into an affair IN MY OPINION. Which is the opinion that matters in this example.<P>I did not say or insinuate that flirting constitutes an affair, although I doubt any affair begins without it. An affair is a relationship, and I agree that there is "progression" into an affair. You and I simply disagree as to when that line is crossed. To me, one night stands ARE affairs that are really no different that my husband's except they are compacted into a few hours instead of a few weeks.<P>I actually like dragantraces definition much better that the one I first gave. She said that "If your spouse regards or would regard the relationship as a betrayal, then it is an affair". <P>I read your little labor/kidney stone analogy, but quite frankly don't see the need for it. Please DON'T compare the pain I feel as a betrayed wife to the pain you feel because you can't have the woman you chose to have an affair with. I don't understand your pain and you know NOTHING of mine. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have much sympathy for the pain of a cheater, but I have plenty of empathy for your wife.<P>As to being irate with you, it's absolutely true. That's why I chose long ago to stop reading and responding to your posts. Not because you are a betrayer, but because of your constant lectures such as the one to fairydust and your unending need to convince everyone that your opinions are better than their own. I do find it annoying, so I avoid it. <P>Let's end this one-on-one discussion, shall we? My response on this thread was to emp, and I find it aggravating and annoying to shanghai someone else's thread for this kind of argument. Obviously, you have no problem with it. My apologies to emp and other posters who wanted to simply respond to the question emp asked.<P>Peppermint

Welcome back, NoMas! Kind of makes you want to go back to your mountaintop, no? At least you didn't make the mistake of calling Peppermint "feisty"!<P>Peppermint--NoMas is the king of fantasy/affair fog here. And the prince of passive aggressiveness. Don't make the mistake of losing your sense of humor over him.<P>Ok, we've had our fun. I'd define an EA as verbal confirmation of the feelings i.e., "I really care about you" or "I think about you all the time," or "I'm falling for you", blah, blah, blah. My H once said "You better stop looking at me like that or I'll have to kiss you"--I'd say that's a qualifier--a hint at possibility of a PA.<BR>(To me, kissing is physical. If you don't think it is, you must be doing it wrong!)<P>Flirting, secret crushes--I've never had a problem being jealous of those. But the minute there is an expression of reciprication--you're in EA-city.<P>And that's MY final answer. <P>

Ok emp...<P>Your question got me caught up in some cross-fire here...or maybe they call it 'friendly-fire' these days. :-)<P>Would you clarify your question as to what your "EA" really meant? Were you asking about 'emotional-affairs', 'extramarital' affairs, or plain old 'adultery'?<P><BR>Pepperment...I'm waving a white flag at you...please try and relax. I didn't intend to get your blood pressure up. Honestly!<BR>You seem to read just enough of my post to get you angry. If you are not going to read them entirely, then don't bother responding to them. I didn't try to compare your pain with my pain. In fact, I said basically it does no good to even argue the point of who is hurting more. <P>

To people who have not indulged in an EA it is hard to imagine that two people who have never met face to face could fall in love. It seems whacky, but it happens. I know, because it happened to me. I wasn't looking for it...and before I knew what happened...I was in over my head. My H discovered the EA back in January, things got ugly, and I had a terrible time understanding what I did, dealing with the withdrawl, and with the pain of realizing that the person I had become intagled with had lied to me for five months. Someone told me that the OM basically had seduced my emotions. Since I was emotionally needy at the time, it made sense to me that I had fallen for someone who gave me all the attention, conversation, and affection I wasn't getting from my H. I am not making excuses, just reasons for how and why it happened. <P>I don't think an EA is adultry though. Sorry, I know I'll get flayed for that comment, but in the true word, it is not. Adultry is having intercourse with someone other than your spouse. Don't believe me...look it up. I don't think most people set out to have an affair. I don't think most people who have an EA set out to become intagled with that other person. Maybe some do, but I know I didn't. <P>It is amazing how much you can learn from a person just by writing to someone many times a day and talking to them. In some respects, I believe an EA is more dangerous than a PA. Sex is sex, but emotions run a lot deeper and I think it's harder to back away when you feel emotionally connected to someone. Believe me, an EA can be as devastating as a PA. I know first hand. I also know that given the right conditions, we are capable of falling victim.<P><BR>

Some of the responses to my question seem to have gotten far afield. To clarify, I was referring to an emotional affair, in particular, one conducted over the internet, mail, or phone with no face-to-face meeting.<P>An added question--if spouse has an emotional affair, is found out, changes the focus of the relationship with OP to one of "friendship" (in spouse's words), do you view this as realistic or a total delusion.

Emp...you sure you want to toss another question out to us sharks? :-)<P>If this is happening to you personally, and you voice your concern or prefrence that it be stopped, and your spouse objects or refuses...then you better watch out. There is a crack in the ice forming.<P>

emp:<P>My wife had an "EA" over the internet. That was the start of it. But it progressed (doesn't it always?), and I ended up with an extra child because of it.<P>When you become "involved" with someone emotionally, it is delusional to assume that this relationship can be demoted to just friends. Of course, if your spouse is involved in this---telling them that they're delusional is a bit of a lovebuster.<P>Any friendship your spouse has that is exclusive of you, that they guard with jealousy---it's an affair. (IMO, of course)

I'd like to put my 2 cents in....<BR>My husband most recently had an EA that lasted almost a year. He works with the OW. He also had an internet EA in the past. The reason I can't call it a friendship, like he does, is that the secrecy was there. So, I agree with peppermint..."An affair is occurring whenever one partner is engaging in a pattern of behavior that they would not exhibit in the presence of their spouse and, in fact, keep secret from their spouse." But, I also believe that he was becoming emotionally attached even before he was totally secretive. I wondered why he would talk about her and her problems and care so much, for both EA's. But the actual affair started with the lies.<BR>I disagree respectfully with Leilana that you need a verbal confirmation to have an EA. My husband never verbalized his feelings to the OW but managed to be totally infatuated with her. Even said once rather desperately during withdrawal when he thought I had contacted the OW..."she'll never know...(how I feel)." So, while this may come under the definition of a "secret crush", it certainly was devastating to all involved and had all the hallmarks of an affair. ie, secret internet account just for her mail, meeting secretly with her at her condo, at bars, at races, secretive phone calls from pay phones...you know the drill. <BR>Finally, in answer to emp's second question. I feel that they are being totally delusional because a normal friendship can be held up to the light of day. An affair is hurtful, harmful, and most importantly, secretive. When I confronted the OW about the whole thing, she replied that they were just 'acquaintances'. Uh, talk about delusional!!! A friendship takes other people's feelings into account, while an affair/friendship is hurting someone...the spouse most immediately. <P><p>[This message has been edited by littlemurph (edited July 18, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by littlemurph:<BR><B> My husband never verbalized his feelings to the OW but managed to be totally infatuated with her.... secret internet account just for her mail, meeting secretly with her at her condo, at bars, at races, secretive phone calls from pay phones...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>littlemurph,<BR>I have to respectfully ask, if they never verbalized their feelings towards eachother, what did they talk about via e-mail, at the condo, at bars, at the races, on secret pay phone calls? <P>But I totally agree with everything else. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 20, 2000).]