I read about disrespectful judgements/lovebusters to the betrayer made by the betrayed and let me say this, there is a big question mark bubble over my head at times. <P>I was the betrayer, but my bad choices and actions didn't get coddled by <B> anyone </B>. I can see if the betrayed has some major issues to work out, that Plan A is a good thing. But if the betrayed did not have any major issues (and I'm talking major, such as being physically and emotionally abusive to their spouse), how is just continually biting your tongue and watching the affair continue going to help? To be honest, being told how I was acting and having my H not put up with it was what brought me out of the fantasy. He knew this behavior I was showing him wasn't me at all, and I guess it shocked him. He had always been a good husband, and I know if he had (while my affair was still in progress) just Plan A'd me, I would not have wakened up. I guess it's a matter of boundaries. I just think that sometimes the betrayer sometimes needs to be shown (no yelling or screaming involved) that their behavior cannot and will not be tolerated. In looking back at what I did, I'm sick. Maybe I read Dr. Harley's articles incorrectly, but didn't he say that it's nearly impossible to work on a marriage when the affair is ongoing? I'm just curious, because I think the information provided here is invaluable, but cannot understand this one aspect.

Connor:<P>This is a tough question that can be debated several ways.<P>In no instance should you bite your tongue and "tolerate" an affair by silence. The first order of business is to confront your spouse. You must let them know that you know. This brings the affair out into the open---fantasy time ends.<P>But what you do after that is a harder call. If you have been "the perfect spouse", and the affair appears to be a one-time lapse, then a demand to end it may be a perfectly good approach. But the major issue is that people usually don't have affairs while their spouse is being perfect. They "perceive" that there are lots of problems in the marriage. Abuse (lovebusters). Uncaring (not meeting needs). As the betrayed spouse, Harley (IMO) would recommend that you objectively step back and see if this is true. If there are areas that you can work on, especially in the "lovebusters" arena, then you should make an effort to visibly change your behaviors.<P>I never condoned my wife's affair. I was very clear with her on that. But I didn't use "lovebusters" in condemning it. I didn't use anger (well, mostly... ), disrespect, or demands. I understood how she felt.<P>The downside of the "boundary" side is what line in the sand are you going to draw. What if you say "stop or divorce"? That paints you into a corner---and I don't recommend it unless YOU are really OK with divorce as an option.<P>The Plan A/Plan B method is more gradual. It's also usually exactly what the cheating spouse DOESN'T expect. To be treated like a human being after the affair has been discovered. While that may not be immediately effective, in the long run, Harley has more success with this than other methods. It's not impossible to work on one's marital skills while an affair is ongoing. It's just hard to make "progress" as a couple while it's happening. You do plan A for a while---perhaps it works on its own (the affair fizzles). Perhaps you go to Plan B, a separation. In the separation, you've stated that you still want your marriage. In this state of separation, your love for your spouse will dwindle, but it's slower than while you're enduring the affair in Plan A. <P>There are two endpoints for a marriage: recovery or divorce. The "ultimatum" method tends to be faster, but usually weights the outcome to divorce. And "early" after discovery, most spouses don't want divorce. They want recovery. This method gives them a higher chance, and also allows them to slowly lose that love, so that eventually divorce is an acceptible outcome.

Thanks, K. Makes much sense.<P>I do think though, that in some cases an earlier Plan B may help the marriage recover more quickly, but that's just basing it on my own situation and from what I've seen. I think that's why Dr. H does put a time limit on Plan A, or does he? In any event, you've shed some light for me, thanks.

That was a good summary K. When my stbx started the affair and I found out, I was in Plan A and we were going to counseling.<BR>When she wouldn't stop seeing om, I said she couldn't live in the home and date.<BR>That is when she left and I started Plan B, which is difficult with children.<P>When the affair fizzled, I went back to a modfied Plan A-B, she didn't move home, but I was Plan Aing. When affair rekindled I've gone to Plan D(divorce).

Connor:<P>Harley usually recommends about 6 months in Plan A (try to get in 3 months at least). Each situation is different, and one of the great things about counseling with Steve Harley is that he assessed my endurance level for Plan A at every session, and had me going to Plan B at an appropriate time.

Hi Connor,<P>I think I know where you are coming from and agree with you. My husband said in no uncertain terms that if I ever saw OM again that husband and I were through. He was mad and it was not a pretty picture here but it was what I needed. I needed to be "helped" in that manner......it would not have helped me to have had a wishy-washy husband. <BR>However, I must say that every situation is very, very different. If I had not been married as long and had children, and had the OM also not been married with children but available to me (he was simply not available and neither was I without trememdous compications etc. ) then, an ultimatum by my husband possibly would have backfired. I might have left. I admit that his continuing anger did not help but, if I think about it, he was pretty forgiving in his own way. To be honest, i don't know if I would have forgiven him if the situation were reversed. <BR>I agree though that sometimes I am surprised at how people put up with the affairs, once my husband knew and made my options perfectly clear, I never thought about continuing in the relationship. Even now, those words are decisive for me and help me immensely. I know if I mess up again......I'm gone....(and I would not blame my husband) Personally I need that....

Connor,<P>I do undertand what youre talking about. I actually started a Plan A type method before I knew about the affair. I basically just realized that I wasn't meeting her emotional needs and began meeting them again, unfortunately to no real avail while the affair was going on. When I did find out, through some snooping in her computer, I lost it. I exploded and left her. She was actually out on a date with OM at the time. I took my son, and went to my mom's house. When she came home I believe it gave her the smack in the face she needed. I thought about total seperation, but through some talking I did decide to move back in and try Plan A. It's been about 2 months since D-day and we are doing great now. She is completly through the withdrawl and back with me. Now our marriage is begining to be what it should have been in the first place. So I don't know if a full force Plan B is a good thing, but a temperary seperation did wonders for us. Hope this provides some insite

K, that is interesting about the endurance level. What if one is able to sustain Plan A for years, is this recommended? I have read Plan B is to protect your feelings of love for your spouse, but what if someone is able to go along in a Plan A indefinitely, because they don't want to take the risk of final closure? You're right, all situations are different, and in reading Dr. H's material his marriage building techniques make perfect sense (on a global level). That's what initially brought me out of my affair, reading that I wasn't so unique in my situation (I thought I was the only one who had gone through this for some reason). <P>Bonny, exactly. My husband said that in retrospect, that he knew I was having affair although I admitted to the affair about 6 months after it had already ended. But what brought me out of it was his intolerance of my going out at night. He has never been controlling, although I accused him of it when my affair was going on. He just didn't believe that certain behaviors had a place in marriage, and he voiced them to me without lovebusting. But you're exactly right, I think when I was in my affair, I could have not really respected him if he had not put his foot down. And what he said and did in a tough love way, did help me tremendously to bring me back to reality.<P>KLS, that's what had happened with me at one point too, and I believe that was the determining factor in me quitting my job and searching for a counselor. When you're faced with the fact that your husband is going to leave you, it's like a kick in your stomach. You knew what you needed to do in that situation, because you couldn't tolerate her behavior, and she obviously truly loves you and realized what she was doing was wrong. I'm glad to hear that your marriage is getting better. I think after something like an affair happens, it really can make the marriage better because you no longer take one another for granted.

Connor:<P>Very few people are able to do Plan A for extended periods (1 year+). There are exceptions to this, however. Both Chris and terri have spouses who have separated from them, but not divorced. In this case, they've both been in "Plan A" for a year or so. It's easier to do in that you don't have the constant "irritation" of the affair in your face daily. It does get to be a drag (they'll both attest to this), but it gives you longer staying power.<P>The bottom line is that these plans give YOU both the ability to effectively work on your marital skills and provide your wayward spouse hope (Plan A), and maximize the time you're willing to invest before final closure (Plan B "insulates" you). As I mentioned to Chris in his post, you WILL eventually end up in divorce, but when you want to (unless your spouse files). There's no game-playing with divorce here. You divorce when you are ready; when there isn't enough love left for your spouse to wait any longer. If you've gone through this process (let's say 6 months of Plan A, 18 months of Plan B) and worked on the marriagebuilder's skills, you will recover from your divorce more quickly and be much more capable (skilled/successful) in a future relationship.<P>The issue with a quick demand is that it can land you in divorce court in 6 months. And if you weren't ready, you'll take years to fully process the loss, and even after that, you won't have learned any skills to make you more successful in a future marriage.