Is there a hope for me even after W said she stopped seeing OM, but she still said she doesn't love me any more. She wouldn't want to open her door to give me a chance at all.<P>Please advise.

Just wanted to bring this to the top since no one had a chance to respond. Offon are you still there?<P>I can't remember your story, I'm sorry. Maybe you could fill me in on some details again. But, I just wanted to tell you that there is hope. It is my belief that nothing and no one are beyond redemption. <P>Don't know, but maybe she is going through withdrawals. They tend to take anger out on their spouses during that time. I know my H did. Have you had problems before that she could be angry about? Hope you check back in.

I'm not sure if this is a common response to attempting to end the PA but my W is doing the same thing. She even went as far as blaming me for giving up OM after I gave her the plan B letter. My best guess is that it is all part of clearing of the fog associated with affairs. I try to do my best to wear her shoes and think about how painful it must be to turn around and start down that path that leads back to a happy marriage. Unfortunately, in our case, that path seems to be like walking down the original path that led to infidelity only in reverse. Every step of the way we seem to pass something painful that was originally planted along the way. Another thought that wearing those shoes brings to mind is how emotionally devastating it must be when a truly good, honest and caring WS has to go through the self realization process of what they allowed themselves to become. Unknowingly, I think they need to share that burden of guilt with their spouse to just make it to the next step. <P>For what it's worth that's my two cents. Good luck.<BR>

Thank you dead inside for you reply,<BR>I posted my story under the title “Living with two cultures makes it hard for her to come back” last week. Here is a summary: My W started her affair back in November 1999 with her co-worker. He is married with two very young children. I discovered the affair in February 2000. Since D-day, I have been trying to win her back and ask her to stop (probably LB). The worst mistake (LB) that I did was a month after D-day I told her parent about the affair. Both her and her parent had a fight about her infidelity. Her parent asked her to stop, but she refused. She told them she loves him (OM) now instead of me and she never returns to me again as husband and wife. The reason she is still here with me is for the kids’ sake, not for me. One thing I told her repeatedly was if she cares and loves our kids so much she would stop seeing OM. (This could be another LB). I also asked her not to use to phone in our house to communicate with him. She never trusted me again since she knew I tapped the phone before, even though I stopped doing that a long long time ago (I did it for a week after D-day because I wanted to find out about the true). Since I caught up with her in every move and every lie, she felt that she was in prison in the house. His wife also found out about the affair in April 2000, and they though that somehow I had something to do with it. (I don’t know how his wife found out). They also thought that I hired a private investigator. (I didn’t) I investigated on my own via tapping phone and following them couple times. All of this was done couple weeks after D-day. Since then, all I have done was guessing their game plan. Sometimes I might guess it right because she got angrier with me than before. She kept telling me to give her time, she got herself into it, and she will find herself out of it on her own. But, I got impatient sometimes. I wanted to know when that time would be. A month, 3 months, 6 months, a year, two years, or 8 years? I finally got the answer couple week ago that the time she’s asked for was for her own to break a way from him, not for me to wait for her. She told me even after she stopped seeing him, she will never come back to me because she doesn’t love me any more. She told me since she gave herself, her love, her feeling, her passion her heart her soul to him, there was nothing left for me. All she wanted to do right now is to be there for the kids and when my last child turns 18 (in 8 years), she might leave us and be with him if he is still there waiting for her. If not, she would find other instead of me. (She might say that to make me feel jealous). And yet, she also sent a mix signal that she would not know about the future, whether she will come back to me or be with him 8 years from now. All she wants right now is we leave in peace and harmony as a family in which she defined as a father, a mother, and the kids, not as a husband and a wife and the kids. She told many times that there will never be a husband and a wife or there will be no sex again in this house. No touching, no hugging, no kissing, or anything in that nature. From now on, we will only talk about family business (vacation, kids activities, etc…).<P>Well, that is my story.<P>One thing she told me that she felt it is her duty as a wife to have sex with me. I didn’t know that she felt that way. She felt that way since my last child was born 10 years ago.<BR>

Thank you Hi Infidelity for you reply,<BR>I'm sorry to hear (read) that you fell the same way. My W even said that if I try to beak them apart, she would start a new one. I don't know what she is thinking. I guess she just wanted me to back off and leave her alone for now until she can think it through on her own what she wants to do next or when to stop talking to him on the cell phone. She stopped seeing him in person now, but still talking on the cell phone so that she can have some privacy.

I would advise you to stop pursuing and pressuring her to become your wife again. You need to open the cage door and let her out.She has to want to return to you on her own free will. This theme is elaborated in following article by Dr.James Dobson which I would suggest you read very carefully.<P>Dear Friends, Have you noticed that June is bustin' out all over? Not only has the world turned into green buds and yellow roses, but this is the month when our thoughts turn naturally to romantic love songs and silver wedding bells. New families are coming off the assembly line every day. Nothing is more inspirational than the uniting of two unique and divergent personalities in a marital commitment that will last for a lifetime, with God's help. Who can comprehend this mysterious bonding that enables a man and woman to withstand the many storms of life and remain best friends to the end of their lives together? This phenomenon is so remarkable that the Apostle Paul, under divine inspiration, chose it to symbolize the unfathomable bond of love between Jesus Christ and His bride, the church. We could spend a month or two just thinking about the implications of that wonderful analogy. Unfortunately, a depressing number of today's marriages end on a less inspirational note. Indeed, Western nations are witnessing a continuing epidemic of dysfunctional relationships. A recent study done by sociologists at Rutgers University concluded that the institution of marriage itself appears to be dying.1 I shudder to contemplate what life will be like (and how children will suffer) if the researchers prove to be right! The agony inflicted by divorce cannot be overstated. It was this tragic situation that led me to write Love Must Be Tough, which continues to be one of my most popular books. It addresses not only marriages in distress, but concepts that will strengthen less troubled relationships. Let me focus my comments this month on the most important among them. The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretense to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment. Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe. If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage. Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship—focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface. Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects. Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will. To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc. Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!" This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time. If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead." Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances—her grasping hands—any more. "But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure." It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious—that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance. If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse: The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home! The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better—somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan—a program—a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins. This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15: "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace" (NIV). Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture. Well, that represents my attempt to summarize a basic theme of Love Must Be Tough, which is 212 pages in length. I hope it will be helpful to those who have been struggling to keep a troubled marriage alive. In a broader sense, the principles I have described are not only relevant to husbands and wives in a time of crisis; they are applicable to healthier marriages, too. Indeed, I wish they could be taught to every engaged or newlywed couple in the morning of their lives together. There would be fewer bitter divorces if young husbands and wives knew how to draw their drifting partners toward them, rather than relentlessly driving them away. Respect, you see, is not only vital to rebuilding broken marriages, but to preserving healthy relationships day by day. Now isn't that just like an author to promise the moon to his readers? All writers have this tendency to overestimate the significance of their views. Books being published today offer everything from 30 more years of life for men or ageless skin for women. Unfortunately, these authors rarely deliver on their promises; they remind me of "Professor Miraculous" in the Old West who sold his Elixir of Life from the back of his covered wagon and then left town ... fast. Hoping not to fall into the same "cure-all" trap, let me tell you candidly how I feel about the various concepts described in Love Must Be Tough—only one of which is addressed in this letter. Genuine insights into human behavior are not everyday occurrences—at least not for me. Indeed, if one stumbles onto two or three fundamental principles in the course of a lifetime, he or she has done well. The concepts I expressed in this book focus on one of my allotted few. Do they always preserve dysfunctional marriages? Of course not. No one can make that promise. But even in cases where the spark of love has died, the principle of self-respect in the face of rejection holds true. The alternative is usually despair. Though I haven't emphasized the role of prayer in the preservation of a troubled family, I'm sure you know that it is the key to everything. The institution of marriage was God's design, and He has promised to answer those who ask for His healing touch. Still, it helps to understand your spouse as you seek to restore what God has "joined together".<P>Best wishes...max

Hi Max,<P>You said "I would advise you to stop pursuing and pressuring her to become your wife again. You need to open the cage door and let her out.She has to want to return to you on her own free will." <P>Believe me, I did let her go when she told me she loved him and wanted to be with him. But she refused to leave the house and be on her own. She claimed that If she rented an apartment that would cost money, she would rather stay instead of wasting that money. She wanted to be with the kids every night.<BR>She did not want to stay with him either because he is still married and stayed with his wife. From the past 14 years my W has never left the kids and stayed over night anywhere without them. But If I leave the house, my wife couldn't affort the mortgage payment and other bills. She is working, but not enough on her own. I will help her with the payment. But that is not what she wanted either. She wanted for me to stay. I worked hard and got to where I am are for them (my wife and my kids). Every thing I do is for them. Believe me, I provided love and care to them beside money. I was always there when they need me. I have never been in a bar nor seen a movie by myself from the past 14 years or ever since I married her. I did every thing as the best and royal husband and the best father to my kids as I can be. What I try to do right now is to help her get up when she fell down. I feel that she made a mistake and wanted to help her get out of it. Beside, she told me she wanted him to go back and be with his family. He is willing to leave his family any time for her. And also, this is his second married already. I'm afraid this OM did not know what he wanted in a relationship. He never tried to solve his problem, but wanted to run away from it. Do you think what I did was wrong? <P>OOOO