How do I get someone I shouldn't be thinking about out of my head?<P>Contrary to what some of you seem to have gathered from my last thread, I am not trying to justify an affair. <P>I have found myself in a position where I am thinking too much about someone other than my spouse. I am looking for advice on how to stop.

I know it's hard, but try to replace the toughts of the OP with thoughts about your spouse. If that doesn't work, and it may not be that easy . . .<P>Do anything to take your mind off of that person . . .When I kept having thoughts of the OM - to the point where I wanted to pick up the phone and call him - I would go get water, I would take a short walk, I would go buy a soda. Some of these things help in a crisis situation, but you really need to get at why you are thinking about this OP and not your spouse.<P>You're doing a good thing by trying to get the thoughts out of your head, but you may not be able to on your own. Maybe there's a problem in your marriage, maybe this OP is very attractive, whatever the case may be, whenever you think more about the OP than your Spouse - or you go away and miss this OP more than you S - there's a problem. <P>You can try to push the thoughts out of your head, but you'll never really get rid of them until you address the problem. Maybe you could give us some more information - when you have time. Anyway, hoped that helped a little - anyway.

Thank you, SKM.<P>What I am trying to do right now is focus on my marriage at the moment. It has some major flaws (rather than get into it, may I refer you back to the other topic I started: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004009.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004009.html</A> )<P>I appreciate all the short term fixes you can suggest. Right now I can't concentrate on the bigger problem until I take care of this one.<P>Thank you. -Ripped

You folks are incredible.<P>You're tearing missy9 apart for finding someone new, nice theoretical discussion, but when I ask for concrete suggestions I get one response (for which I am very grateful, SKM).<P>It's amazing to me how so many are saying "don't do this, don't do this" but when asked "how" there is silence.<P>Just an observation.

Good morning, 'ripped'.<P>I can tell you why there is not many responses. There are not any easy answers.<P>Believe me, I know. I understand better...why it would have been better to never have crossed that line and ended up in this place.<P>Your mind is the battlefield of your soul. Who ever wins the war for your mind...wins your heart as well. So your mind is being plummeted with images and thoughts of this other person. You can't turn on a radio without hearing a song that reminds you of them. Movies, TV shows, etc...serve as constant triggres of memories. <P>I know of no other way to describe it, other than it is an ongoing war. And the enemy of your soul...takes very few coffee breaks.<P>There really is no easy formula or 'quick-fix' solution. I'm sorry. <P>Someone once told me that we tend to 'walk in the direction of our focus'. I suppose that you just have to find something to re-focus on...maybe your marriage/spouse, etc.<P>I really am sorry...that I can offer no easy solutions. I don't think it was intended to be an 'easy' way out of something we should have never ended up in. I shared no long ago about a trip I took to the Grand Canyon. I hiked down 7 miles to a look out point. Going down was a breeze. Climbing back up ... nearly killed me. But, I did get out. One painful step...at a time.<P>Oh, If you do find a magical cure or wand that makes it easy, PLEASE...let me know where to get one for myself. :-)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 20, 2000).]

Ripped,<P>The only way to get someone out of your head is to completely avoid contact with them. While my H was living with the OW, a really nice man befriended me. He was "everything" that my H wasn't - had a better job, better looking, better sense of humor, etc. I confided in him (wrongly), thinking that we could be friends. But the truth was, there was a lot of wishful thinking on my part. And his, apparently, because he tried to take things to the next level. I suppose I just wanted to be "rescued." The ONLY thing that did it for me was to completely cut off contact. I did not see him, email him, call him, etc. I broke ties with our mutual friends. It was the only way.<P>And you know what? After about a month, I didn't even think about him anymore. I don't even think about him today, except in the context of, "Sheesh, I could have made my H's affair even *worse* by getting involved with this yabbo!" I now associate only negative feelings with my thoughts about him, and I'm ashamed. And from a distance, he ain't that great, to be honest. Now I can see that what he did was inappropriate. I can see that his "hitting" on me was not right. I am a married woman. Now that I can see this, I have very little respect for him as a person.<P>NO CONTACT - it is truly the *only* way to go. If that doesn't work, envision the person you have a "crush" on in a myriad of embarrassing situations. Picture them being chewed out by their boss. Picture them with a bunch of big zits on their forehead. Picture them with an IQ of 70. Do whatever it takes to make the person "less" in your mind, and debunk the fantasy.<P>belld

Hi Ripped,<P> Sorry you didn't get many replies....I guess what has worked for me was to stay away from situations etc. that include this person. Out of sight ...out of mind, or something like ! Or maybe we are all just "out of mind"!<P> I know during my H's affair and recovery etc.....which was rocky and I was extremely vulnerable, I would make an effort if I WAS around the other person to mention their wife or mention my H and have a chat about them (in a good way, no problems,etc)....That sure seemed to bring me back to reality. LU

Ripped,<P>Here are some of the things I do to keep my mind off of the marriage problems and I believe you may find them useful.<P>I have started some home improvement projects, wallpapering, drywalling, painting to make my home more attractive.<P>I take frequent walks to center and clear my mind. I have lived in this town for 40 years and am amazed at the different sites that I never noticed before.<P>I have gotten back in to my hobby of wood working. Built a desk extention cabinet for my scanner and dividers for all the paperwork.<P>I have made the yard a show place. No weeds in sight. Planted a new tree and water it daily.<P>Wash and wax the car. Usually if it got washed once a year I was happy. Detail it to the Nth degree including A/C vents with Armourall and a Q tip.<P>You don't have a hobby, go out and find one. <P>And second, I am feeling some anger in your post regarding Missy. Let me tell you I went out with an XGF a few months ago and it was not a real good idea. I only wanted some female companionship and she knew that up front. Now here I sit alone, should I have persuded the relationship with the XGF, should I give up on M? She just moved in with a new BF and it makes me think just a bit more, did I blow it? It just complicated matters, get my point?<P>Right now Missy is in a fog and the folks that responded are only trying to help her so she doesn't fall into a trap. <P>K is one of the corner stones here and I respect what he has to say. I don't have to agree with it, but I respect his words. If you want to attack his views because he regards Dr, H's as the gospel truth, knock your socks off. I also don't believe it means a rats behind that the ridicule of him being celebate for x.x years is called for.<P>One last thing, I haven't found a decent counceler in the area and would also advocate calling Dr. H. <P>It seems to me that you are taking your anger out on the members of the board. Just my observation. Shields are up.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

Medic,<P>Good practical advice. I have been walking in circles literally at home, but not accomplishing anything.<P>Surely my car could benefit from a run-in with Armorall and a Q-tip. <P>NoMas - Maybe that is it. A Q-tip with Armorall on it is the 'magic wand' you where looking for.<BR> <P>needed to find a smile today very badly. Thanks,<BR>-Dawnn<p>[This message has been edited by Dawnn (edited July 20, 2000).]

Ripped, not sure this is what you want to hear but maybe you should share your feelings of attraction to another person with your spouse. If my husband had told me how he was feeling maybe I could have helped him through those times and tried to improved our marriage and find out what needs he had that I could meet, that we both could work on. I am learning from this affair that my husband had that communication between two people who truly love each other is the best gift that you can give to each other. Honest, open communication, sometimes we don't like to hear things like you may be attracted to another person that is only human, but if you don't share those feelings with your spouse it will eat you up and will lead to things that you don't want to happen. Take a chance and I know that you will be so much happier about the outcome. Good luck, I will keep you in my thoughts.

I thank you all for your responses and apologize for being rude. I am glad that I got some help, though I am concerned that a request didn't have quite the weight of an attack here. Again, just an observation.<P>NoMas: Thank you for replying. I have been reading your posts. I admire your courage in facing the problem that you are in.<P>Fortunately I have not yet fallen head over heels in love. I am trying to head myself off at the pass, so to speak. I guess it is good that the songs on the radio and the commercials on TV don't remind me of OP, but instead remind me of my H's infidelity. Sigh. There are no easy ways out on either side of this. I'm just trying to prevent adding pain to pain in my marriage. Even if I end up getting a divorce, I want to be able to leave with a clean conscience.<P>But, boy, it sure is hard to get this other guy out of my mind...<P>If I find a wand I'll set up a lending library for it. I'm sure you're not the only one who would like to use it.<P>belldandy: I don't think that no contact is an option for me. This guy (I really hesitate calling him "OM" because NOTHING has happened between us...yet...as long as I correct course...) is my counterpart in another division of my company. We need to coordinate projects. Admittedly this week has been easier with him out of the office. I have had to phone him, but I hid behind being busy and stuck to work topics.<P>When I think of him I'll try thinking of the bad points, but I'd rather avoid thinking of him all together.<P>Lu: This guy isn't involved with anyone, so I can't bring up his SO, but I will make a point of bringing up my husband and kids.<P>Medic: Allow me to introduce myself: I am "Ripped" who hassled K about the "not a gift from God but a gift from Satan" statement. I think you have me mixed up with "KomingKlean" who hassled K about Marriage Builders principles and being celibate. I have no problems with celibacy. Did it myself for a few years pre-marriage. And I agree with K that missy9 isn't doing a "Plan B" as listed in the books, etc. I just have heartburn with anyone telling anyone that Satan is sending them a care package. I think God gives us all things and it's up to us to make good of them. Yes, I think God gave me a husband who would have ten affairs in nine years. He gave me a package that I can do with as I please, to the glory of God or Man.<P>Theological discussion ended.<P>Oops--almost--if I cleaned the car with a Q-tip I would be sure I was in Hades! <P>That said, I think that throwing myself into something else neutral is a good short-term idea, which is what I asked for. I'm trying to do marriage triage right now. Reconstructive surgery is still needed but that's not where I'm at.<P>Thank you all for your responses. --Ripped

Ripped,<P>Have you read "Surviving an Affair?" by Dr. Harley. It advises no contact, even if you have to take extreme measures. Have you thought about transferring to a new division, or getting a new job? If there is the potential for you to feel more attracted to this person, that is what my advice would be. Remember, extraordinary measures *must* be taken, even if it means making great sacrifices, i.e., moving to another city, quitting your job, moving to a different neighborhood, going to a different church, etc. It simply must be, if you want to put the brakes on an affair in the making.<P>belld

Ripped, I don't think their has not been 1 married person that became infatuated or put their thoughts onto someone else other than their spouse. I am not the WS but I was infatuated for awhile with someone else. It did pass on it's on, because when it came right down to it, my thoughts were constantly on this OM due to the fact that I had so many problems at home. It gave me a diversion to stop thinking of what to do about my husband. I didn't have to think of all the negative stuff, I got to think positively, I had the attention of someone else making me feel good. When I came to realize this, I knew that it was just an escape for me to stop thinking about problems at home. Did I ever act on it, no, because I wanted my husband only. That is why I don't believe that Missy is to be dragged through the mud for her friendship. It doesn't always end up in a bad situation. It can help you to build your self-esteem so that you are positive again and you can take that same positive feeling back home. Not every situation works for EVERYONE and it would be foolish to think so. To get back to your simple, direct question. It depends on what you do with those thoughts at this point? Do you want to act on them? What is it about this OP that takes your mind of your spouse? Is OP giving you a feeling about yourself that you aren't getting from home? (sorry I answered your question with many questions)!

Ripped -<P>I read through this again, and went on the link to your other post. I understand you are recovering from your H's various affairs - this is a lot to take in - as any of the Betrayed Spouses will tell you. Since I'm not the Betrayed Spouse, I only have an indirect view of what you must be going through - because my H went through the same thing.<P>The most important thing for you to do is to share your feelings with your husband. Find out if he wants to stay or leave, let him know that what he has done has hurt you deeply - so deeply that you are beginning to have feelings for another man. I strongly recommend trying to resolve the issues with your husband first before turning to another man. If your H wants forgiveness, wants to rebuild your marriage, great, I think that's wonderful. If you want that - then at least you can try to rebuild.<P>If he doesn't want to work on the marriage, and you do, there are some options on this site about Plan A and Plan B. You may want to read over some of that information and see which one might work in your situation. Or seek counseling.<P>Having said that, if you're finding it hard to "love" your husband right now and want to divorce him, I think that is understandable - giving the hurt you must be feeling. <P>But someday down the line you may regret having not tried to work it out. Divorce, unfortunately, is an option, but I think at this stage you may want to try to consider working things out. I say this for you - not for your H's sake - you just want to make sure that you don't have any regrets for "not trying." <P>Flirting with this other man . . .That's how my affair started - the flirting got way out of hand. I really enjoyed all the attention (particularly because at the time, work was a priority for my H - or at least I felt liek he was ignoring me). This person made me feel pretty at a time when I felt ugly. It got so serious, that the only reason I came to work was to read his emails or to talk to him on the phone. I was upset about my job - very stressful at the time - and I can honestly say - it was the only thing that pushed me to get up in the mornings and go to work.<P>I guess I just want to strongly encourage you to put an end to this early - or you will regret it. Maybe one day you and your H will work things out - how would you feel then? Just because he committed adultery, doesn't mean you have to drop to that level. Try to focus on your vows - if nothing else - you made a promise NOT to get involved with anyone else while you're married.<P>Again, having said that, I think it's hard for people to recommend things to help you stop from thinking about the other person - because what may work for someone - may be totally ridiculous to someone else. I hate recommending things when I don't walk in that person's shoes. So don't be discouraged by a small number of posts.<P>Here's another thing that helped me. . .everytime I thought about the OM - after I broke it off - I would come to this site and just read - and really take in all the hurt that betrayal causes. So continue to read and post. Read books about infidelity and recovering from infidelity - pretend it's like a course you're taking at college - do research find out how many relationships work out when they are based on mistrust (i.e., you leave our H to be with the OM)- if you haven't told your H about this other person, than you need to be honest with him.<P>For me, I can tell you 100% that I wish I would have been able to stop this thing at the "flirting" stage. I admire you for trying - particularly given what you've been through. Had I learned about this site during those early stages, I think I could have had a better chance of rejecting the temptation that has led to the worst crisis I have ever had to face.<P>If I were to put myself in your shoes - if I could have it all to do over again - I would be nice to your co-worker, but in no uncertain terms I would let him know that the flirting is getting out of hand. <P>If I had it to do over again, I would never find my self going out in a social situation with the person - whether alone or in a group. I understand that if you work with this person some contact may be unavoidable -but you shouldn't do anything with this person that is not work- related (that is, if I were you ) <P>If I had it to do over again, I would never agree to meet this person outside of work. If I had it to do over again, I would have never kissed him. If I had it to do over again, I would have told my H sooner. If I had it to do over again, I would have stuck to my guns when I KNEW it was wrong to flirt with the OM.<P>Unfortunately, mine are "only ifs." You may not see the benefits of stopping things now, but you will later - regardless of what happens. Think of this person as the person you would lest likely go out with - if you're like me I dated some real losers before I got married - think of those real losers, they were charming at first, but once you saw their true colors, it was a different story, right? Even though this guy may seem really great - focus on the flaws - one big one - flirting with a MW <P>Anyway, I know I'm rambling. In a book I'm reading "Three Steps Forward, Two Steps back," there's a passage I want to share with you, maybe it will help<P>"Temptation is the act of enticement to do wrong, by promise of pleasure or gain . . .Temptation motivates you to be bad by promising something good . . .but it's up to us to provide self-control." The book goes on to say that we are all tempted, we cannot escape it. But "sin takes place when we agree to the temptation and follow it."<P>I have no idea what your religious background is, and I hope I haven't offended you. Because your H gave into temptation, should not be a reason or justification for you to sin. Until you are divorced, giving in to those temptations would be a sin. <P>From my standpoint, that's the root of my problems, I gave in to temptation - that's why I lost any self-respect I may have had for myself. I was lying, I was cheating, I was making excuses, I ws breaking a promise. Please don't let it happen to you. <P>I'll try to help you through this anyway that I can. If you can learn from my mistakes - all the better. While it may seem fun and exciting now - trust me, it is not worth it - not to your husband, but especially not to you. Keep me posted!

Ripped,<P>This isn't a simple question. I've not seen the OM for over a year, and at times, still wonder about him. I've had absolutely no phone or letter contact with him for months, and can still hear his voice in my head at times. The thoughts can feel maddening, considering my firm resolve and committment to work on my relationship with H. At this point, I'm choosing to let them go, to not dwell on those thoughts as they come, by giving them more power than they deserve.<P>My H and I are working to recover, and for the first time, we share that vision. It's a big start for us. At the same time, I realize that we have some bigger issues to deal with, and closeness and intimacy are not built overnight. <P>I look at the type of thoughts I'm having of OM - and some thoughts are okay to me. The deep longing, or "run to him in my mind" stuff, that came from feeling excruciatingly distanced from my H is not okay to me. I now recognize that as a trigger to work harder at closeness - and to do what may not feel natural with H, at first, just to get to the other side of those feelings. <P>I may think of OM for a very long time - I dunno how long it will last, but it isn't (and won't be) the same as thoughts of *living* with my H. I choose to think of some thoughts of OM, (for me, at least), as one way to help keep me on the right road. I need to understand the dynamics, and exitement rush that the affair became for me, and remember that if there is room in our marriage, there is also possibility for others to enter the picture again, at least emotionally, because that can feel like a big hole at times. <P>Sometimes it all comes to this question for me - what does it mean to love my H? I've already decided that he is the man for my life, and my heart - what is my part to work for that? Maybe they aren't easy questions, but things fall into place when your heart (at least your head), knows the answers. <P>What are your answers? If you haven't decided if your H is still the man for you, or what to do with your marriage - there may be part of the reason why you find yourself so wrapped in thoughts of this OM - unable to move past them, or that the thoughts contain so much "power" for you now, that you can't imagine removing yourself from his path? I understand - was there myself, for so long. I also know that with the goal in mind, *anything* is possible. <P>Best wishes.<P>Delilah <P>

Ripped,<BR>I didn't answer as well because I didn't feel qualified.<P> But I love the fact that you asked for help on this in such a common-sense manner. I think KNOWING you're heading for trouble is 1/3 of the battle, looking for and collecting ammo is another third. See, you've only got 1/3rd more to go!!<P>I've never read missy's thread--I felt I didn't need hear about temptation--unfortunately having a retaliation affair is such an attractive idea at times when I'm doubting my marriage. I'm trying to stay on my path but I'm a high risk. Maybe that's why missy got so "slammed". It's seducive to alot of betrayeds and it's something we fear and/or try to obliterate.<P>That being said I think the last couple of responses were great and agree totally with telling your H--hey, if anything it will be a wake up call for him!!--and avoiding OP like the plague. I know they look bright and shiny but it will only lead you down a dark path. <P>Twice before I felt the attraction from married co-workers and knew I was being subtley pursued (before my H had his A). Luckily I remained friendly but avoided being alone with them at all costs--it ensured my behavior was exemplary because my coworkers were chaperones. I also spoke of my H affectionately. It seemed to work. They both transfered out soon afterwards--which may or may not have been a coincidence.<P>Good luck

These replies are all so helpful. It truly is a battle in the mind, one that we have to engage in daily and it does get tiring. Each day/moment that we don't give in to "running to that escape" is a victory. <P>Medic- great productive examples! At least your house/yard/car are looking great. I have to admit I haven't been so productive lately. I used to be so efficient and get many things done, but since all of this I just haven't had that drive. I need to find a more balanced in-between place.<P>SKM & Delilah, I have really been appreciating your posts. So many of my own thoughts and struggles are expressed in your words. Gee, Delilah - you say it has been one year? Sometimes I get weary thinking of that LONG road ahead. I do wonder why these thoughts of OP are so persistent. Even though I know all the reasons in my head to keep away and continue on this right path, the emotions still rebel! It is amazing to me how the "head" and the "heart" can be so opposing.<P>A question for you, Delilah- you say you decided your H. is the man for your life and heart. How long did it take you to decide that? Was that a decision that came after you broke off all contact? And even knowing that, you still wonder about the OM. It is maddening, isn't it? Like that canyon NoMas talked about - a long steep, climb out. I just hope it isn't something to battle the rest of our lives. I don't know if I have the stamina for that!<P>Recognizing that a lot of the temptation is due to trying to fill a void is very insightful. The strongest pulls come at lonely times, times when we are struggling with that emotional closeness in our marriage. It is a good idea to see those as triggers to turn to our spouse and try to connect. I also think the voids are because we are missing God and He is calling to us (but we often don't recognize it as that). So, they are also times to turn to Him.<P>Knowing all this I still feel weary today and wanting a rest. <P>By the way, Ripped, this brings me to something I do to get my thoughts under control. I listen to music - for me it is Christian music - which really keeps my mind focused.

Sifted, sorry you are having a rough and weary day today - sending big hugs.<P>My decision to put all of me into my H and marriage was not an overnight epipany. I reached it months after *knowing* in my gut, and heart of hearts that OM was not right for me, that no other man but the one I'd once chosen to spend the rest of my life with, was right for me. I too, have a strong faith in God, (RC convert), and my affair represented a spiritual rift for me, as well as an escape from myself, and what I felt had become a miserable excuse for a marriage. <P>I fought like hell to extricate myself, emotionally, from the OM. He met all of my ENs, and it fooled me into thinking we were perfect for each other in every other way. Having all of your emotional needs met, is rather a heady drug. Someone in this forum keeps referring to affairs as addictions - I definitely think they *can* have that dynamic, especially in terms of escape from real life - OP = Savior. I now realize that I was way out of whack, my only Savior is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When I started listening again, to what God wanted for my life, as much as I was willing to help myself too, slowly, methodically, some of the balance returned. <P>My H and I made a mutual decision, and walked away from the OP in our lives to end our legal separation. We feel very strongly that because God had joined us, in spite of how we feel at any given moment, or during a bad day - there must be a big reason for that union. We chose to admit our mistakes, and start fresh. Doesn't mean that the OP are forgotten though - we are human beings with hearts, and feelings, after all. Should we expect that of ourselves so soon? I'll even admit to remembering a bit, and cherishing certain memories of my first young love, and this connection with OM felt 200 times more potent to my woman's heart.<P>Sifted, this is what I tell myself when I get bummed about my persistent thoughts of OM. It is the *choice* to stick with the goal anyway, to remain positive with good thoughts of H overriding, that is the point. Thoughts are not actions, and as my day by day actions and choices to grow deeper into H change my marriage, so too (hopefully) will they eventually shape, and change my thoughts of OM. I imagine this because a year ago, I wasn't even close to the clarity I believe I have now - I was in a deep, thick fog of denial. My choice may have been to move away from OM, but my thoughts, and some of my behaviors suggested I was still with him. Emotional connections run deep, they take time to "settle" within.<P>Hope my long-windedness (sorry, I went on longer than I intended!) helps you in someway. Put on some uplifting tunes, and dance your blues away. <P>Delilah

Hey Ripped,<P>I really didn't mean to let loose on you. My anniversary is in two days. Haven't heard from her since the 3rd. I'm a little pissed, homicidal, and ready to kill the next rabbit that steps foot in my yard without proper identification and approval.<P>Sorry for the confusion, my mind is not working as it should. I don't like the attacks on other members either. We have to do what is right for each and every one of us.<P>Sifted,<P>There were so many days when it was hard to get out of bed, not because I recently hit 40 and couldn't remove the covers and find the floor. I know where the floor is, just couldn't motivate my fat [censored] out of bed. Can you say depression? That was before.<P>I have been in the home improvement stage for a while and can't stop. Every room is getting a face lift. It's my home now and I will make it what I want. <P>There is always something to do here, clean out the attic, garage and basement. Anything to keep my little mind off of the marriage problems. <P>When and if I ever run out of things to do in the house, I am planning on going over to the neighbors and start triming his trees. They need it badly. I have a saw and know how to use it.<P><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

Delilah,<P>Wanted to thank you for answering my questions. I couldn't really reply sooner - just didn't have time.<P>I KNOW everything you are saying. I just wish my emotions would catch up with my head. <P>Sounds like it was a determined effort you and your husband made to commit to the marriage. Was that way ahead of your feelings? Did you just trust they would come later? <P>In a way I am just rambling here... It is a day where the emotions are so darn persistent.<P>BTW, did you say you converted to becoming Catholic? That is interesting. I wonder what that would be like. I was raised Catholic, but consider myself non-denominational Christian now. Still, the Catholic roots run deep and I treasure that part of my heritage. Our Retrouvaille weekk-end was Catholic and it was very comforting to me to be in that environment. (just a side note here). <P>Again, thanks for your replies. Wanted to take a nice bath tonight, but our drain needs work, so that didn't work out either. What a day!