Does Plan A only refer to when the betraying spouse is not in the home? If your spouse has returned home (as mine has) but is not fully committed("Trying" is the word he uses) are you in Plan A? How does Plan A meet your needs or help you become the best person you can be as others here have said when it seems to be about accomodating the wayward spouse? If I am meeting my spouse's Emotional Needs (or trying to) and he is in withdrawl or still confused is that still Plan A? If he is home and making some consessions - but is cool and distant (See previous post about affection and sex) is that considered to be good enough and you Plan A until he comes out of the fog? Does being this accomodating just prolong the inevitable? How many of you have asked your husband (or wife ) to leave even though they returned home and said they were "trying" because you coudn't stand the indicsion? How did you deal with your anger and resentment erroding your feelings for your spouse while you were in Plan A? Plan A seems contradictory sometimes. It is supposed to be about me yet it feels only about him. Am I missing something? I don't want the people who responded to my post yesterday (Re: affection and sex) to think I'm ignoring their advice - I'm not and have received a lot of inspiration. I just am at a very frustrated point in my progress right now I guess. People continue to recommend Plan A and it really confuses me in my circumstances. Husband returned home 1 month ago says he's "Trying", works daily with preg. OW and we are getting along very well on the surface but we have yet to regain any intimacy.<BR> Kris<p>[This message has been edited by quakermom321 (edited July 19, 2000).]

Plan A is really just working on you being the best you you can be, while you wait for your spouse to come to their senses enough to notice any changes again!!!<P>You can do Plan A with them in the house, even w/o an affair...it is really something you still do even later, when your marriage is in recovery (only it's reciprocal at that point)<P>It all gets confusing...but I love this post which you should read---NSR's Plan A 101:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011323.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011323.html</A>

Kam6318 - thankyou for your reply. Another thing that confuses me is how do you handle conflicting signals from spouse during this time? **I just went and read the post you suggested it was excellent. Thank you, thank you for suggesting it. I am going to read it daily to reaffirm my faith and understanding in PLan A.<BR> Kris<p>[This message has been edited by quakermom321 (edited July 19, 2000).]

I am Plan A. Absolutely no LB. The only EN I am able to work on is domestic support. He is in total withdrawl from me right now. D-day of an EA was a month ago. She is a co-worker. He told her I knew and they broke it off because she had to go work on her marriage. I have asked him if it was over and he said yes and I asked a friend at his work and he said as far as he knew it was over. But he does see her and they do talk. <BR>He told me he isn't going to lie to me - he does have feelings for her. We have 22 years invested in our realtionship/marriage and he says he does not love me and has feelings for someone he became attracted to for 6-8 weeks. A week ago he reached out to me in the middle of the night, held me close and tight then kissed me. Next thing he is rolling away from saying that he is sorry, so sorry, let me alone. So that he does not do that again he is sleeping on the sofa since. I can not touch him at all. He is in complete withdrawl. I love him and desire him. He voluntarily tells me where he is going and what his plans are even though they do not include me and rarely include our daughter. He makes a special event once a week for her and I am not invited along. I can ask questions about what he did and if he had fun and who was there and he will answer them. He is coming and going at will. Usually coming home after 10, sometimes as late as 12:30am. I am not confronting him about this at all. I am unsure about the EA and if I should be in Plan B. I prefer to stay in Plan A right now. He has threatened to leave four times in a month. I will not make him leave. And I will not try to stop if he does leave. This is so confusing. We are on a very thin line.

I Believe,<P>Even before I read SAA, I was doing "Plan A." This is after my H moved back into our home after living w/ the OW for 6 months. I tried my best to be happy and cheerful, however, I knew - KNEW - for a fact that he was still seeing the OW and talking to her on the phone on a daily basis. I made myself smile, even when it felt like I was chewing glass. If I even got remotely moody, my H would threaten to leave. He kept his bag packed at the top of the stairs, as a sort of visual warning, and told me several times that he didn't want to have any of "his friends" call him at our home until he decided if he was going to stay. I could finally take it no longer, and I simply lost it. After two months of being Ms. Nice, I couldn't do it anymore. I knew he was lying to me, but if I brought it up, all of a sudden *I* was the bad guy in the equation. Now that we live apart, Plan A is sort of a mute point. He gets what he wants from me ... and what he wants from the OW. Maybe. I don't know for sure. He won't talk about the affair, or her, for that matter. If I ask, he blows up and distances himself again.<P>I like Dr. Harley's plan ... however, I really do think, for myself that Plan A would only work if you were in everyday contact with your spouse. When you only see them once every couple of weeks and don't talk to them at all, it's impossible to build up the love bank. I'm summoning up the courage to tell my H that I'm moving into Plan B, which is no contact until I'm sure that he has ceased contact with the OW.<P>I think, personally, that Plan A has the potential to allow a betraying spouse to drag out their behavior indefinitely, unless the betrayed sets a specific deadline, and informs the betrayer of that deadline. It gives the betrayer time to think about what he/she wants with respect to the marriage, and gives the couple an opportunity to make alternate living arrangements, if necessary. It also gets those of us with betrayers who continually threaten to leave out of this deadend holding pattern.<P>belld

How do you handle conflicting signals? <BR>Well, I don't know specifically what you have in mind, but I'm guessing you mean how he is alternately nicer/more responsive and then more withdrawn/sad/less nice???<P>That's normal. That's why we call it a rollercoaster around here. It may help to think of him as being mentally unstable right now, and keep reminding yourself that such mixed signals are "normal" under the circumstances. Mine would literally be much warmer towards me, and then the next day would withdraw again. Progress is slow and up&down, so keep your expectations low for a while. Buckle in...

P.S. to I Believe - I hope my story helped you some. I will say something: I believe that whenever a spouse threatens to leave, repeatedly, knowing that we are walking on eggshells just trying to get them to stay, it is emotional abuse, pure and simple. How can you live from day to day, not knowing if you'll come home to a husband or an empty house? In many ways, now that my H has moved out, I feel a lot better, because I'm not walking that "thin line" anymore.<P>belld

Thankyou to all who responded. I went back to the post recommended by Kam6318 (by the way - thankyou Kam) and it is tremendously helpful. I have reread it several times since then. I guess the control freak that I am has a hard time letting the other spouse set the time table and set the tone. But I'm working on it. What I mean by inconsistant behavior is for example to take my weddiing ring to be fixed but at another time say he's not sure if it is going to work out (AAARRRGGG!!!)<P> Further down on that post is a different website reading "Forgiveness is a Gift YOu Give Your Self". Unfortunately I can forgive my spouse for his indescressions but he is having a hard time letting go of his resentments of my behaviors that led up to the affair. I took another emotional risk and copied the article (it is really very good) and left it for him to read when he geets up tommorrow in the A.M. I hope he doesn't take it the wrong way but there was so much good stuff in there about forgiveness I hope he gets something out of it and I"m willing to take the risk. Is that considered a love buster? I left the article with a nonthreatening letter about how I loved him, forgave him and hoped he could move past his anger at me. We'll see tommorrow - won't we?<BR> Kris

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I mean by inconsistant behavior is for example to take my weddiing ring to be fixed but at another time say he's not sure if it is going to work out (AAARRRGGG!!!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, if that is the best you can do for inconsistent behavior, you'll have to try harder .<P>How about one day hearing "I love you, I am feeling closer to you all the time" and the next day hearing "I am sorry about all this. But, I have learned so much from it...I think I'll be a much better H next time I get married."<P> <P><BR>

kam6318 - you win I would hate to hear that. The other most inconsistant behavior I guess for me is him being here yet saying he is just "trying" to work it out. To me being here is more than just "Trying". Withholding all affection (and sex) yet saying not enough sex was part of the problem. My therapist says he feels "numb".<BR> Though I have also heard lately "If I decide to stay... and when I make my decision..." It is very hurtful to hear those things and then go out to dinner with friends as a couple like nothings wrong!! I guess I am more of a black and white thinker - you're here means you're committed. It's not that simple and I will continue to have patience.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The other mostinconsistant behavior I guess for me is him being here yet saying he<BR>is just "trying" to work it out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I heard that too...a lot. Drove me nuts, but I did understand it, in a way. He was trying, and very hard, but was still torn & did not want to say he was committed til he was sure he was staying. I think he was trying not to get my hopes up in case he ended up not being able to make it and left. I think one of the positive things I did during that time was tell him that I could see it was difficult for him, and I really respected how hard he was trying.<P>Your H is working thru a lot. Be patient and loving, and try not to worry to much. You can provide love & support while they resolve their inner turmoil, but you can't do it for them...

Kris,<BR>Of course, I wondered the same thing at one point re: "If I am meeting my spouse's Emotional Needs (or trying to) and he is in withdrawl or still confused is that still Plan A? If he is home and making some consessions - but is cool and distant (See previous post about affection and sex) is that considered to be good enough and you Plan A until he comes out of the fog? " I had a hard time with that and scoured SAA for info to help me cope. <P>I did find something that helped me to hang on and hopefully it can help you, too. First, Harley says, "Marital recovery cannot begin until withdrawal has ended." Your husband has to get through this TEMPORARY, but painful, experience. Another quote, "The initial efforts to meet the wayward spouse's emotional needs are usually ineffective during the first few weeks of withdrawal because the spouse is so unhappy."<BR>"Someone going through withdrawal usually experiences depression, anxiety and anger-all in a very intense form. The feeling of utter hopelessnes, the fear of making a catastrophic mistake, and even anger toward a betraying spouse are overwhelming." <P>Finally, Harley says, (speaking about a couple he used as an example in his book)... "They were in a necessary, but very temporary holding pattern during which their relationship wasn't going anywhere. Kevin's symptoms of withdrawal had to fade significantly before his marital recovery could begin. But being together was still an important step in preparing for the recovery process." "It was important that they avoid anger, disrespect, or demands while they were together. They were to simply keep each other company for a few weeks and avoid doing anything that would make matters worse. Opportunities to meet each others emotional needs would come later."<P>This is just my interpretation of his book but I took it to mean that withdrawal is separate from plan a . What distinguishes Plan A from just avoiding angry outbursts, disrespect and demands while your spouse is in withdrawal is the time limit. Technically, plan A is what to do if the wayward spouse does not want to totally separate from the lover. (And your husband saying he is 'trying' sounds to me like he is trying...to separate from the OW.) May seem like splitting hairs, but my analytical mind needed to distinguish the difference! <P>'How did you deal with your anger and resentment eroding your feelings with your spouse while you were in plan A?' When my husband was in the worst of withdrawal, I backed off from him. You can do this and still meet his needs (as much as they let you), and avoid angry outbursts, demands, and disrespect. I had to let go and let God, as they say. Just trust. My husband insisted on working 16-17 hour days, then working on his days off, or just going out running....anything to be out of here. I hated to see him do that and yet part of me knew that it was only a matter of time until he began to burn himself out and start wanting some of that intimacy that he was avoiding. The more I tried to approach him, the more he felt 'smothered'. So, I hooked on to that phrase Harley used, "temporary holding pattern" and that is what it was. <P>I don't believe that you are in Plan A (technically ) when the affair is over. Then you are in 'marital recovery' which is guided by the four rules...protection, care, time, and honesty. Even though everyone says around here to plan A, I believe a lot of times they mean for you to follow the rules and avoid the angry outbursts, etc.. <P>Gosh, I really didn't mean to get so lengthy and precise. Hope you're still awake! I meant well.

I have a question about Plan A. <P>Suppose the affair isn't out in the open. Suppose the straying spouse is doing everything to keep it hidden? Suppose the betrayed knows about the affair? Suppose the cheater has been busted once before, and is presumably "not seeing the OP," however, the betrayed knows that the spouse is indeed seeing the other person, yet doesn't bring it up, as to avoid LBing?<P>Plan A is ambiguous, to me. Seems that Plan A would work only when the betrayed spouse knew of the affair, and the betrayer was aware that the spouse knew about the affair. Otherwise, doesn't this just give the cheater carte blanche? I mean, why stop seeing the OP, when there is a loving spouse who for all practical purposes, is in the dark and who lets you get away with it? What sort of incentive is there to change?<P>And, in this scenario, how would a betrayer move to Plan B? All of a sudden make demands that the betrayer cease contact with the OP, when all along, the betrayer didn't even know his/her spouse knew?<P>I know that this is minutiae, and I hope I didn't confuse anyone. However, how do you approach your spouse and let the spouse know that *you* know that there is still contact going on during Plan A?<P>belld

Littlemurph - I know, I know not to push it but I just can't help myself. It is like an alcoholic saying tommorrow will be a better day. I have to just lay back and wait and it is so not me!! Let me tell you what foolishness I did this morning. I left my husband a letter and an article about "Forgiveness is a Gift you Give Yourself" (its actually a web sight that was recommended here - just type it into "Keyword") How is that for not pushing it? I wrote in the letter that I loved him and had forgiven him and now it was his turn to forgive me for what ever my part was that led to such unhappiness. This was after he told me that leaving him little cards etc made him uncomfortable. Talk about a love buster. Why can't I just leave well enough alone? My vow is to stop obsessing as everyone here has been telling me and to be patient. Now can I really do it? I must. <BR> Kris

So confusing!<P>What are some signs of them coming out of withdrawl? When can we safely initiate contact and intimacy? Sex is supposed to be so important and an emotional release as well as physical but how do we get the ball rolling? I started to work on EN where I could ( not sex, teh only thing I can work on right now is Domestic support) and this made him angry. I did not react to his anger and this made him worse and to withdrawl more. Now I have not heard But I do not love you for a week. I was informed that he was going away for the weekend on Wed night. I told him tat I missed him and his response was that I was going to miss him even more soon because as soon as he finds a place he is moving out. Yet what I see is him relaxing, softening interacting with friends more, coming home at more reasonable times(still late but earlier tan he had been). I have caught him looking at me and following me with his eyes. Of course if he knows I am lookong he ignores me. I tried to initiate intimacy last night. It did not work. But I did actually have phsical contact a I gave him a kiss on the forehead without him recoiling from me. He said there was not going to be any sex because he does not want to. That is his reason right now. He does not want to. He did say then that he was tired and going to sleep. That was better than his nasty comments 2 weeks ago. Before I went to bed I sat on the sofa with him, rubbed his shoulder and told him he could come back to bed anytime. He said that it was not going to happen - he is not coming back to bed. I gave him a kiss on the forehead, told him I loved him and went to bed. He did not comment back. Now I will not see him til sometime Sunday. <P><BR>Belldandy - I did all the wrong things, major LB, when I did know what was going on. I tried everything that I could to get his attention and it was all wrong. When I found out the truth I immediately did a 180, backed off and went into plan A. He went into complete withdrawl from me. I see him softening and relaxing even though he is still threatening to leave. I have set him free, I can not do anything to help him until he is ready. When that time comes I want to be there for him.<P>

I believe - I think the hardest part is the waiting for them to go through withdrawl (besides actually finding out about the affair) I don't have any answers but the advice I get is to be patient and to not push things - that is not one of my best qualities but I am trying.<BR> It does sound ilke you are having an effect on his behavior small but babysteps is another phrase I hear constantly. So let's each try to concentrate on those very small steps!<BR> Kris<BR>

Quakermon321 - yes I have to agree - I am not always very patient either. This is one of my 180's and I have gotten considerably better especially where H and D are concerned. And I am counting my blessings with each baby step I see. Right now the positive baby steps are outnumbering to negative backsteps even when the backsteps are considerably larger. The advice is to not believe anyting you hear and only half of what you see. That does raise the question about the positives we see - how real are they.<P>I know I tried to push for intimacy last night but the thought of him being gone for 3 days did scare me. I did not LB and I backed off when he got sensitive or negative.<BR>I stayed light and up beat in spite of the rejection. I saw other positive signs that made up for it even though it did not take the ache away.<P>Thank you for the reply.