FA, you (and others) got me thinking. I've never remembered any NT verse which supports divorce, although I've seen the concept thrown around here at different times<P>So, with your suggestion, I got my Bible (and Roman Catholic Catechism book) out.<P>You said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>God may hate divorce, but even Jesus stated that save for "adultery" men should not divorce their wifes. An affair is adultery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To which I responded:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't have a bible handy, but I believe the quote is that Jesus is firmly against divorce on any grounds, but in the case of adultery it "is allowed through the law of Moses because of the hardness of men's hearts".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To which you said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>K - get a Bible, there was no misquote, nor misunderstanding. Matthew 5:32<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Here's the biblical verse you referred to:<P>Matthew 5:32 (St. Joseph's Ed of New American Bible):<P><I>But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.</I><P>So, this basically says no divorce unless the marriage is "unlawful". And nowhere is it stated (or implied) that commission of adultery creates an "unlawful" marriage. Adultery is a sin---no doubt about it. But in the Christian faith (NT), divorce (the verb) is a sin as well. The "unlawful" reference is generally regarded to mean unlawful as in brother marrying sister (and other blood-relation taboos of that time).<P>Furthermore, Matthew 19:3-9<P><I>Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?" He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate."<P>They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?"<P>He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wifes, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.</I><P>I'd also point you (and others who are interested) to Mk 10:9, Lk 16:18, and 1 Cor:10-11.<P>In essence, it seems to me that Jesus is very clear on this. Divorce is immoral in God's eyes. A marriage is an indissoluble bond between two people (save death of the spouse). Nowhere does Jesus say "except for adultery". In fact, he specifically REJECTS the OT law (which wasn't referring specfically to adultery, but in fact is translated to "something indecent" (Dt 24:1). <P>So, based on my interpretation of the Bible, I would say that Jesus (GOD) would say that divorce is a sin. And in the Christian faith, just because someone sinned against you first (adultery), doesn't give you permission to sin back (divorce). And this is the reasoning behind one of the "hard-to-live-with" rulings of the Catholic church that decrees that divorce is immoral (although permanent separation is OK---as is being on the "receiving" end of a divorce in civil court).<P>It's not an easy concept to live with. But biblically, it is "the law". Thanks for the suggestion to look it up---it's been good for be to get these books out.

K, thanks for looking this up & the detailed recap. I looked it up too. What I find is that too many folks tend to quote a lot of scripture in ways that suit them. To make it worse, some versions of the Bible to use the word "adultery" in place of "unless the marriage is unlawful". So between all the versions through time & all the individual interpretations, it is a bit mangled. <P>The interesting thing to me is that the old Law of Moses is very detailed on so many things, yet in my version of the Bible, basically states "if a man doesn't like something about his wife, he may write a letter stating that he has divorced her". Pretty open, huh? Don't even have to see a priest!<P>My whole perception of teachings of Jesus is that we should all be a little kinder & gentler than what that law prescribed. I think the "Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate" pretty much says it all, but some folks just aren't happy with that are they.<P>Anyway, thanks again for looking this up.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Here's the biblical verse you referred to:<P>Matthew 5:32 (St. Joseph's Ed of New American Bible):<P><I>But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.</I></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The <B>King James version</B> of this passage states: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication(adultery), causeth her to commit adultery.<P>I have two different Bibles with me now, both are King James version, in one Bible the word fornication is used, in the other, the word adultery is used instead. The word fornication is used in both of my Bibles in the other passages that you have quoted that the term "unlawful" is used in yours. <P>So it seems to me that according to the King James version, divorce is permissable when adultery/fornication is involved.<P>I would like to clear up one thing, I have never told anyone on this site to go out and get a divorce, what I have done and will continue to do, is tell people that I will support whatever decision they make regarding divorce, keeping in mind that we are all different, with different makeups and that we all have our own personal limits as to what we can or can not live with.<P>I would also like to add that just because a person proclaims to have a belief in God, that does not necessarily make them a Christian, and if it does, it does not necessarily make them a Roman Catholic or any other denomination that preaches that there are no grounds for divorce, because there are denominations that follow the King James version that states that outside of fornication/adultery, there are no grounds for divorce.<P>This is exactly why I think it causes problems on this site when people use their own specific religions or faiths to make points, because as I stated in an earlier thread that I started awhile back about this very subject, there are many denominations among Christians, and that these denominations have different interpretations of the Bible, and as is being pointed out now, have different translations of the Bible. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by takingcare:<BR><B>What I find is that too many folks tend to quote a lot of scripture in ways that suit them.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wholeheartedly agree with you here, but in this particular situation, this was not the case. This was more of a case of clarifying what was in the Bible, not a case of mangling a particular scripture to suit ones needs, at least that is what it was to me.<P>

FA:<P>Thanks for the clarification on the editions. Although by no means a bible scholar, it's very interesting how two different interpretations (or translations) can have such vastly different meanings. <P>I didn't mean to come across antagonistic at all---I've just seen the point you referred to (divorce OK in case of adultery) several times before, and I didn't remember it as such. And when I bothered to look it up, that's not what was in MY bible. I appreciate you taking the effort to look it up for me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Matthew 5:32 (St. Joseph's Ed of New American Bible):<P>But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To me that reads that a divorce will cause the wife to commit adultery, <B>not</B> that you can't divorce.<P>But then; <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wifes, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This says if you divorce, then <B>you</B> commit adultery.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would also like to add that just because a person proclaims to have a belief in God, that does not necessarily make them a Christian, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is what makes you a Christian, not simply belief in God.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

I have to add my 2 cents...<P>A while back (Oct. 20, 1999)... in the old "Read-Only Posts" forum I made a reply to SDS...<P>...and put it up on a personal web page...<BR>(yes, it is geared toward Catholics...<BR>...and I am Roman Catholic as well)<P>If anyone would like to check it out ===><A HREF="http://users.erols.com/herczeg/Annulment.html" TARGET=_blank>Catholic Marriage, Divorce, Annulment and Remarriage</A>.<P><B>K</B>... you'll find the booklet <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089243810x" TARGET=_blank>"With Open Arms" (Catholics, Divorce &<BR>Remarriage)</A> <B>very</B> interesting...<BR>...but since you're in recovery... maybe for you... not so relevant.<BR>For me... with an inescapable divorce hitting me straight in the face on August 7th...<BR>...it may have more of an influence.<P> <P>Jim

K<BR>Not to turn this into the thread like the missy9 thread, but I was wondering, and this goes for anyone else that believes that there are no grounds for divorce, is there any actions whatsoever your spouse could take that would make you file for divorce?<P>For example, what if your spouse openly continues in an affair or has multiple affairs, do you wait it out over and beyond the "accepted" two years that affairs usually last, and if so, how long is too long? Do you stay married to someone who has had multiple affairs and continues to have multiple affairs? I'm just curious

FA:<P>I didn't necessarily say that I didn't believe in divorce (as a Catholic, I must admit to some "failings"). But from the Catholic Catechism and cannonical law, it can be acceptable to be separated during a marriage, for the reasons that you've stated. You can even actively pursue a CIVIL divorce, if the divorce "remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of ihneritance" (Catech 2383). <P>But as far as ever marrying someone else---the answer is no. Until the other spouse dies (and I think murder is still on the sin list... ).<P>Now, if you were to put "me" in the place of the hypothetical situation of being married to a wife having multiple affair---I truly don't know what I would do, other than "my best to save the marriage". I certainly wouldn't say that I would never divorce, and once divorced, I'm not sure that I would remain "alone" according to my faith. <P>I'm hoping not to ever go down that road.<P>NSR: I'm heading over to your links to check out the stuff... you are a wealth of information!

GROWING THROUGH DIVORCE by Jim Smoke, published by Harvest House is an excellent book on Christians & divorce recovery, including workbook type questions at the end of chapters.<P>I believe God is merciful and he understands & has more experience with the unfaithfulnes of people than we do. "As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12 NKJV

FA.. please don't think my remark was posted about you. It was a very general comment. I definately would have posted to you if meant to direct it at you. Sorry if it was taken otherwise.<P>Random remarks here on out... In general, I respect Christians and the Judo/Christian based religions. But boy, too much time is spent determining what the rule & interpretation is. I have moved over to Universal Unitarian, since they seem to practice a much more diverse and accepting stance. Jesus was a great instructor and spoke so well on how mankind should act. If anything I would think you could see from his words that he expects us all to act in a good, kind, manner & not get so wrapped up in the rules. Whew... the discussion on what is allowed & what isn't just wears me out. <BR>

Hey NSR: I checked out your site: very well done. It's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that I'll order the booklet from Amazon---I'm sure it'd send my wife into a panic if she opened that package!<P>I don't want anyone to believe that I'm damning someone who divorces---I believe that God can forgive any and all sins. It's just part of my motivation for working hard on the marriage and avoiding divorce is due to the "sin" aspect of divorce. Most of the reasons that I rally against (needless) divorce is for much more practical reasons, tho.

I have learned over the past two years that you never know what you will do until you are in the situation.I believe and agree with the KJV of the bible that divorce is permissable in the case of adultery,but even with that I believe that God wants us to work towards reconciliation.

K,<P>Very interesting thread...<P>Not that I'm one to split hairs <fiendish grin><P>However...<P>It is my understanding that Our modern Bibles c (including King James) are translated from the original Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT) text. From what I understand alot of meaning gets lost in the actual translations of these ancient languages. In fact from what I believe there are certain words and phrases that can only be "roughly" translated to English. <P>If there is a scholor amoung us that has the willingness to look into the "original" texts, I would be very curious of thier take on this.<P>Just a little food for thought in this veri intiguing topic...<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Bill,<P>No I am not a scholar...<BR>but you may want to check out the following...<BR>...and it does follow the booklet's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089243810x" TARGET=_blank>"With Open Arms" (Catholics, Divorce & Remarriage)</A> text referenced earlier with the link to my web page <A HREF="http://users.erols.com/herczeg/Annulment.html" TARGET=_blank>Catholic Marriage, Divorce, Annulment and Remarriage</A>.<P>(sorry fo the incomplete links... corrected 7/22)<BR>Greek text ===> <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=32&version=kjv" TARGET=_blank>Matthew - Chapter 5 verse 32</A><BR>and<BR>Keyword (porneia) ===> <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/strongs.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=32&strongs=4202" TARGET=_blank>porneia</A>.<P>I hope that helps.<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited July 22, 2000).]

Jim,<P>Thanks for the link...<P>The word "saving" could have several connotations, don't you think...<P>Bill

I am not a bible scholar by far, but have always had a fascination for ancient history. The original writings upon which the Gospels of New Testament of the bible are now thought to have been based were in Aramaic, which was the common tongue of the region during the time of Jesus. The earliest copy of any writings connected to the gospels is thought to have been written sometime between 40 and 70 A.D. These writings were then translated to Greek, and several other languages before they were translated to English. It is very likely that many words have been misinterpreted or mistranslated from the original writings to the current English versions.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Another tidbit, re: adultery and emotional affairs....<P>I don't know where this is (maybe NSR can find it?) but, in NT Jesus says that if a man lusts after a woman he has committed adultery......<P>hmmmmmm.!!!!

<B>Bill</B>,<BR>The word "saving" (<A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/strongs.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=32&strongs=3924" TARGET=_blank>parektos</A>) is just simply means "except, with the exception of (a thing)" or "besides"...<BR>It has no connotation of "spiritual salvation".<P><B>terri</B>,<BR>Very true!<BR>...but most surviving complete (oldest) documents were in Greek...<BR>...and the Greek language is one of the richest in vocabulary in expressing so many different thoughts/emotions/feelings with distinct and separate words.<P><B>trustntruth</B>,<BR>You'll find the passage you're interested in <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html#28" TARGET=_blank>Matt 5:28</A>...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You may also want to check out another site that expands greatly on many related verses...<BR>===><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/DianeDew/adulforn.htm" TARGET=_blank>Adultery & Fornication</A>.<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited July 22, 2000).]

This was a very interesting link<BR><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/DianeDew/adulforn.htm" TARGET=_blank>Adultery & Fornication</A><P>From the definitions of adultery and fornication, does this mean that a married person having a physical affair is committing both adultery and fornication?<P>BTW, where do you find these sites?