This morning I woke up to my H sitting next to me in our bed. He had an appointment on this side of town and came by to see me. He had a rough weekend. It was not his weekend with the kids, and he pretty much stayed away, other than a drop in for a few minutes on Saturday, and it's killing him. He asked the kids to come to a pool party with him Sat., and they turned him down as they had their own things going on.<P>Well, H and I went down and made coffee and talked for a long time. He is trying you guys. He says I am different, even look different (and he does not mean the 45lbs I've lost in the past 2 mos). He can't stand to be alone...just hates the apartment. He can not commit to me now, but feels like he knows me better (and I him) than ever before in the 23 years we have been together.<P>He (my strong rock of a man) cries on and off during these long conversations we have. We seem to get stuck on the "what went wrong" aspect. Don't get me wrong, I love that he can show his emotions in front of me...something he could never do before.<P>He is still confused as to what kind of life he wants to lead. He has placed so many stipluations on his returning here. He knows he can never hurt me like he has again, and this seems like a huge leap for him. I don't feel like I can lead him into a good life. He has played and flirted for so long that he would have to give up a huge chunk of himself to come home and stop all that. He wants to be deeply in love, just does not know if I am the one that he can feel that way with. He did tell me that he has never felt closer to me than he does now.<P>He is coming back over tonight for dinner. <P>Also, he did commit to Retrouvaille. We are going in September. Anyone that has been through that program, please let me know if it helped you get off the fence.<P>I guess I just wanted to post this morning about how this is all going. Yeah, confusing as ever, but I do feel hope. This scares me, because as soon as I get hopeful I get kicked in the gut by something negative.<P>Is he trying to find his way home? Is this part of a natural process? Betrayers...did you start to see your spouse in a different way before you decided to commit again? How can I keep changing to keep him seeing that I can be the wife that he needs?<P>It's good for me to write out my feelings and know someone out there is reading them. You guys have kept me going through all of this and I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't found this board. I am a bit afraid of what H is doing right now...he seems to be coming to a conclusion, but it could go either way. He wants this time in his life of "limbo" to be over.<P>As usual, too much coffee this am.<P>Thanks for listening.<BR>allison<P>

Allison:<P>.....sh...sh...sh..sh..be very quiet, hold your breath and don't breathe, or something might happen to make this dream go away.<P>I don't think it's possible for you not to be hopeful, I know I would be, but I understand your pessimism too. <P>Oh well, I'll throw caution to the wind and say this may be it...he may be on his way home...maybe not immediately but sometime in the future.<P>Go slow and recommit only if he is agreeable to really working on the marriage, not just to coming home because he is lonely or is tired of living alone. There seems a bit of that in what he's saying. It's not enough and should not be enough for you. If he's not willing to work on the marriage, or he's undecided then don't allow him to come home.<BR>You'll be sorry if you do, believe me. I've been there. <P>We'll be crossing our fingers, arms,eyes and toes for you tonight.<P>Buffy<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 24, 2000).]

Allison, I hope things go well for you. I'm too scared to let my H live on his own. I'm afraid that he might not realize what your H is coming to realize. That being alone is not all it is cracked up to be. That coming home is the best place to be. I understand your hope and your questioning. You will be in my prayers.

Hi Allison...<BR>You wrote:<BR>"Is he trying to find his way home? "<P>That is the term I have used. I have always heard the expression: "You can never go home again"...meaning things never stay the same.<P>It is a lonely journey back. You know you are lost...unsure how to get home...not sure if you will be wanted home...you are overwhelmed with defeat over your failure. And if there was any other MLC stuff working here, that just adds to it. Then...there is still the influencing impact of the other person who does take up a part of that hurting and confused heart.<P>Just trying to answer your question, not discourage you. I have to go for now, but would like to share a neat story with you later tonight...maybe you can log back on then???? It could offer you some hope Allison...especially your husband.<P>Oh, by the way...I am back east visiting family with two of my kids. Wife and other child could not get out of work obligations. This trip has been planned for months.<P>Things at home got better this week...not sure if this trip away is good or bad, yet.<P>Talk with you later...<BR>

Hi az allison, <P>"He is still confused as to what kind of life he wants to lead. He has placed so many stipluations on his returning here." <BR>Confused: HE has placed stipulations on his returning here." Please explain. Does this translate to <BR>a) He wants to commit to and work on the marriage and find a counselor to help you both, or<BR>b) He doesn't want certain conditions imposed upon him<P>"He has played and flirted for so long that he would have to give up a huge chunk of himself to come home and stop all that. He wants to be deeply in love, just does not know if I am the one that he can feel that way with. He did tell me that he has never felt closer to me than he does now."<P>Is he willing to explore why he needs to flirt and get attention from other women?<P>"does not know if you are the one he can feel that way with" <P>Question: is that a self-analysis, or is that a door to be left open in case he finds "the one he can feel that way with"?<P>You're going to Retrouvaille? Good for you! I called for the brochure, they are coming to our town in Sept. So far I haven't got the nerve to show my H the flyer or ask him to think about it.<P>I asked our counselor if he'd heard about it. He hadn't. And our sessions are only 50 min to an hour, and the issues and hot spots don't come up until the last 5-10 minutes of the session, so we don't make much progress. My H won't bring up anything emotionally loaded until it's time to leave. (Intentionally or unintentionally, probably the latter.)<P>Hope to you.<P>"He wants this time in his life of "limbo" to be over." <P>We all want Limbo to be over. But first we have to do time in Purgatory.<P>Allison, you don't think coffee will ever become a controlled substance, do you? <P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

hi allison<P>thought I would drop in and add my two cents worth.<P>It appears that your H is finding any reason to come and visit you. Agreeing to come back for dinner tonight is a positive for you.He needs to feel welcome and that he is comfortable with you. <P>Your question that you need to keep changing to keep him seeing the wife he needs. He has to make some changes for you, so you also can feel comfortable in his presence. When he can see the changes in you I'm sure you will clearly see his changes. <P>Keep it up. He maybe realising that it's you he needs and the warm comfortable feelings you give him.<P>A quick update on me. Nothing absolutely nothing. After our meeting last week I thought I would wait for her to respond to me. Guess what no calls, no contact, no messages, no anything.<P>I find it so difficult to keep positive during this time. I feel my relationship is slipping away and I have no idea how to stop it. <P>Ill finish up on me, I want to keep positive for you and not drag you down thinking off others problems as you have enough of your own.<P>keep it going your doing great.<P>T<P>ps the trees are begining to come back to life as I have started shouting at another stand of trees.<P>bye lol

I didn't really expect to get any replies to my rant...so coming back on and seeing these was like getting a gift...thanks <P>Buffy, I shushed...am calmer now..thanks. I hadn't really thought about him just coming home because he's lonely. I will really give this some thought though. He is strong in saying that he will not come home unless the "feelings" return for him and he can commit to a life of a married man that will be faithful forever.<P>Lapeine, I knew it was scary to have him out there on his own, but I also knew he would hate it. He is a highly social guy, and has slept on more friends couches the months that he's been gone than in his bed. Thank God he hasn't contacted OW in his lonliness (I hope).<P>NoMas, I am not discouraged by your post. You always look at things from both sides (well, not always, but you're getting better at it ). Can't wait to hear your update...and I have to say that I am proud of you. You sure sound a lot better than you did a few weeks ago. SEE!!!TOLD YA!!!<P>Bellevue, you crack me up! Coffee should be a controlled substance around here. That and diet coke! The conditions H has placed on coming home are totally his own. He has not asked me to change a thing. He knows if he comes home, it's for good, and he will have to make a lot of changes. Over the years we have led seperate lives. He spends a lot of times with his buddies. He knows...all by himself he knows...that this will have to be dramatically different for us to make it. He has to decide which life is meant for him. The family life, or the single life.<P>Good questions on the flirting thing and the door open thing. I guess I"m being kind of a sucker in leaving the door open for him. Risky business there, huh? But aren't we all sort of doing that here? He will not go to therapy, therefore may never know why he is such a fricken flirt. Wish he'd see that he is not God's gift, but H does have a certain magnetism (darn it).<P>Keep thinking about the Retrouvaille thing. I sort of sold it to H by saying it is like a lot of marriage counseling condensed into one weekend. Will save us lots of time and money in the long run over counseling (wink-wink). Hey, we gotta do what we gotta do!<P>Okay Timtam, You are doing great. I'm big on the idea of NOT calling your spouse while they are in the fog. Is it killing you hon? It's gotta be. You are brave beyond words to wait this out. She'll call. Just keep yourself busy and leave those damn trees alone man! Too funny. <P>As usual this is too long. I'm printing it up to remind myself to not write again when I am nutso, just go back and read the great advice I've already been given. Thanks<BR> <BR>allison<P>

Allison,<BR> I have to tell you my H did the same thing before I let him come home. Told me he loved me and knew that what he had been looking for had been at home all this time ect. Well I fell for it hook line and sinker and here I am alone again. I'm not telling you to not be encouraged by his actions but keep in mind it may not last.<P>Jill

Hi Allison,<BR> I just wanted to tell you how glad I am for you that your H is doing all these things and showing all these signs of returning.I see it all as positive because my H did and said most of the exact same things as your H and I have the most wonderful H now.I never would have thought it possible for him to change so much and for things to be so different.One night (when we were separated) I too awoke to H........standing next to the bed,taking off his clothes and SOBBING "I'm so sorry"....and still not being able to come home right away due to all the uncertainty in his brain.He made it back though.I think the same will happen for H and you and you'll be blessed with a new marriage.<P>Retrouvaille will change things! I'll almost......ok,I will, stake my house and kids it will change things! Pray now,everyday,until you go, for H to see God's will for his life.Our marriage retreat(not retrouvaille)changed my H. It was an intensely spiritual/reconnecting experience,one neither of us will ever forget.It helped to put many things in perspective and offered us much hope.I hope and pray you and H have the same kind of experience.<P>Good luck Allison.Hope you and H have a wonderful dinner tonight.

Hi Allison...<P>Wanted to share a "mini-sermon" with you. I've shared it with others...just having a hard time making it 'work' for me.<P>In the Old Testament, there is the account of the Israelites that had been in exile in Babylon for 70 years...returning to their homeland to rebuild. You find this in the Book of Ezra. They have quite a bit of work ahead of them in rebuilding the temple...and soon, get the foundation laid.<P>IT is a dramatic moment with the young exiles rejoicing and celebrating, and the older ones weeping. They knew full well...why their homeland had been destroyed...because of their rebellion and sin. But nevertheless...God has given them the opportunity to ...rebuild.<P>Not long after the foundation is laid, the enemy and hostile neighbors set out to discourage them. (We all know how that can be when trying to rebuild a marriage...so many setbacks and discouragements that come at us from every direction). And finally, the enemy succeeds in getting them to stop building.<P>About in chapter 5 or so, a prophet by the name of Haggai comes into town. About 15 years has now gone by with no construction. People have fallen back into their own ways. And if you go to that small book towards the end of the OT, you find what Haggai spoke to them that inspired them to get back to work.<P>He starts out rebuking them for turning to their own personal pursuits while leaving God's business unattended. But they do get started. (Hope you are hanging with me cause this is the good part)<P>Haggai comes up to them in chapter 2. He knows what these older guys are thinking. There ain't no way, this temple will ever be as good as the first one. Seems they had their chance and blew it. WIth that mindset in place, it is very difficult to get motivated to put forth any effort to rebuild.<P>Do you see where I am going with this? Your husband...me...others....feel like we've made such a mess of things...what's the point of trying. Discouragement can be overwhelming. And how can we expect our wives to be so supportive after what we have done to you????<P>Well...back to the story. Haggai makes a promise to them. Essentially, it is this: "You stay with the task before you, and the glory of this second temple will be far greater than the first temple!" <P>Did you catch that? God was basically promising that he can take the ruins of our lives...no matter what a mess...and put things back together in such a way...that it is difficult for us to imagine it ever being better...let alone even as good as it was. <P>But then...we're not God. He is in the rebuilding and restoring business. I really believe there is such a powerful truth in this story. Now...if I could take personal ownership of it...<P>Sorry for the long winded sermon. I'll not take an offering.<P>Good luck to you Allison.

NoMas, I know that story, but you tell it sooo well...<P>Actually, building is a very good analogy. At first, some of the old bricks had to first be torn down, but now there is a new, wonderful building going up...<P>Don't be discouraged and I hope you have been able to tell your wife everything she wants to know. You know this, but I'll say it anyway. Guilt is meant to take us to the point that we change our behavior, repent.<P>After that, it really serves no good purpose. I thank God for my h that he is so strong in that regard. He has just gone about quietly changing in ways he needed to and we are seeing something beautiful growing (despite the bumps we still have).<P>Allison, I think there is good reason to hope. Try to stay busy, makes it easier to walk that fine line where you hope, but don't seem too overly eager.<P>Was the separation your idea or his? My h never left, but it was still about two months after he ended contact before he started REALLY trying. But we were talking and supporting each other.<P>He waffled about leaving (to live with her, but didn't tell me that) before I found out, but was committed since d-day. Still he was "not in-love, just doing the right thing, etc". It was still quite a climb to where we are today.<P>If you can, your best shot would be for you both to counsel with one of the Harleys if he wants to move back.<P>Even aside from any withdrawal, it seems hard to get WS headed in the right direction and it really helped to give a weekly report to a third party (Jennifer Harley). We faxed our plans to her of how we would better meet each other's ENs, she trained us how to negotiate to POJA, etc.<P>There were many new behaviors we had to learn and it would have been really hard to do it alone. Once we got the ball rolling, we only called monthly. I don't think we had more than 6 or 7 sessions total, and it made such a difference.

Allison,<P>I'm happy to hear that maybe he is having reservations about ending your marriage. Boy, I'm sure that confusion has set in for you. Is it real? Only you can find out. I know when it happened to me, I threw caution to the wind. Allison, you almost have to if you want to see if this will work.<P>You have wanted him to come home, probably planned A'd for a long time.<P>My expierences with this were not good. But I feel that I am more the exception than the rule. Look what I had to work with. LOL My ex came back to get everything in order for the big D. Few are like him....so don't let that scare you off.<P>Good luck to you both Allison....you have been a pillar of strength to me and have shown me that your marriage is worth a slow, slow try.<P>My best friend went to Retrouvaille. Her straying spouse loved it, she did not. They are still together though. Working through their problems daily. He is a real nice guy, just made a bad mistake. He has done everything possible to make it up to her. I know it did him and their marriage a world of good.<P>Nancy