Believe it or not, but as soon as I hit send on my last message to the urgent thread had posted H walked through the front door!<P>So he *did* come straight home from work, after all. Thank the Lord!<P>When he walked in I said surprise, the meeting was canceled. He hugged and kissed me and said he was so glad I was there. <P>We went out into the garrage to tinker with his motorcycle and my scooter, to wait until dinner was ready. I apologized for dinner being so late but said I had planned it to be ready after I got home from the meeting, He said not to worry he'd rather wait and be able to eat with me. <P>We had a nice family dinner and then H and I went to our room to watch a movie. It was important that he had time to unwind and eat before I brought anythign up to him. One of his complaints abotu me was that in the past when he would walk through thte door after work I would unload the problems on him. Untill I actually brought the cell bill up no one would have thought there was *anything* wrong at all. You all wouild have been so proud of me!!!<P>H's brother called as soon as we put the movie in. Now that was a surprise. H's imeadiate family has not called my home for several years, since H first moved out. He wanted to know why we had not come over to H's mother's for dinner on Sunday! H said we had other plans and then he said H's family wants to put all the problem in the past and see us again. He said they will support any desicion H makes and want him to be happy. Now this is coming from people that bonded with OW and have not been thrilled H has returned to me, last or this time. But apparently H has made it clear to them he is here to stay so they need to accept me or they won't be seeing much of him.<P>After the phone call I must have started to look a bit disturbed or sad. H asked what was wrong and I told him *I* had cancelled the meeting because I was upset all day and couldn't conduct a meeting feeling the way I did. Naturally he wanted to know why I had been upset.<BR> <P>Then I told him his cell bill had come, and I had looked at it. He said so? I said you told me *IF* she contacted you you would tell me. He said I didn't want to hurt you by telling you. Then I said you called her 38 times in 17 days, what do you think that says to me? He then said he has felt so guilty for leaving her all alone. Her kids were being jerks and not wanting to help her and H's family has pretty much gotten tired of her hysterical phone calls lamenting about her love for him and how could he have done to her what he did. So he calls her. I asked him just why he talked to her for over 11 hours and on one day talked to her for over 2 hours.She had still been threatening suicide. He still has paper work he needs from her and he has to pick up our stereo, cd's and the bussiness papers she, suppossedly, has signed. So he has trying to be *nice*. He said his guilt is overwhelming but if I want he'll tatoo my name on his forehead. I told him that isn't necessary, but being honest is. He said he felt he wasn't being dishonest. I told him hiding things or keeping secrets from me was dishonesty to me. I told him he wouldn't hide things if he had nothing to hide. He said he wasn't hiding anything, as he knew the bill came to the house. But I know he didn't expect me to really look at it. And for the person who had said their WS's phone bill was $203 try over $600 on for size!!! And her cell is on his billing. Her LD charges for while she was away were $300 alone! He said he feels he owes her more money and this was a partial compensation. <P>He then said she will be moving this Thurs. She is now on antidepresants and doing better. Her kids are now helping her and she sees a future for herself. He said as she continues to improve he will start becoming less and less available to talk to her.<P>I asked him if he had seen her and he said yes. Last Thur he went to her house, she got back last Wed, to pick up a computer disk. He said it was odd being there and he told her to let him know when he can come to get the rest of his stuff, and he wants her to put it outside or in the garrage. He will pick it up *after* she has left on thurs. He said he doens't want to have to see her again.<P>He told me she is a nice person. But she is not the person for him, I am. He didn't want to tell me about the calls and seeing her because he has hurt me so much he just doesn't want to hurt me any more. We talked and he now understands he does need to tell me things and not telling me only hurts me more.<P>All in all it was a good conversation. He said he has a hard time talking about it all. He says he has to live with the knowledge he hurt so many people that talking about it just keeps reminding him of what he has done. But he said he understands my need to talk about things and is willing to any time I need to.<P>He said when she moves later this week and gets her phone installed in her apt then he will shut off her cell service that is on his billing. <P>I do feel better. Am I convinced he is being 100% honest? No I am not. I don't know if I will ever fully believe him again. I will keep my eyes and ears wide open. I will monitor his cell bill, I will continue to make him accountable for his time and whatever else I need to do for however long it takes me to regain trust in him.<P>The one thing I KNOW I can count on in all of this is the wonderfull people at this site. <P>Thank you again to all who responded. Your caring is ovewhelmimg. And your advice outstanding.<P><BR>Hugs to you all,<P>FC<P>

You know, FC, you bring up an interesting point about what constitutes "something to hide."<P>I think that this issue of openness and honesty and "not telling you something that would hurt you" is a common thread that runs through most of these situations. Certainly it ran through mine.<P>What these spouses who hide things don't realize is that the hiding just makes things worse. For all I know, Dragon Lady was just my H's friend, and not even that close a friend, as he says. But his secretiveness about it certainly changed my perceptions forever; far more than he realized. <P>Your H is doing the same thing. It sounds as if he's trying to extricate himself gracefully from OW, as if doing so will lessen his feelings of guilt (especially if she's clinging and pushing his guilt buttons, as it seems she is). <P>FC, as I've posted elsewhere, I don't think we ever really trust again. Even if there's no actual discovery, as in my case, there's no real trust. Anything can trigger anxiety. <P>The part of your post quoting him that ticks me off is when he says that OW is "a nice person." "Nice people" don't have affairs with married men, they don't harass the man's family, and they sure as heck don't threaten suicide to try to win him back. It's as if he has to justify his own lunacy by making her look better.<P>You handled this beautifully. It sucks that WE have to create this "safe atmosphere" in which they can confess their dirty deeds, but unfortunately that's the case.<P>The proof for you will be when he actually shuts off the cell service. Let us know, OK?

Thanks for the update, I was thinking about you last night even though my reply was a bit late.<P>I think we can trust again, but they have to earn it. I don't agree with D&C on that. Actually, it may be harder in her situation where there was no "discovery" because she is left wandering as opposed to the spouse who comes clean completely.<P>Have you read Surviving an Affair together? My h also had a hard time just "cutting her off". I think it is a good trait that he felt responsible and cared what happened to her. It took a lot of convincing that a clean and total break was best not only for us but for her. That any attempts on his part to help her would be construed as hope that there might still be a chance for her.<P>With her moving, it is the perfect time for a clean break. We used the form letter in the book, and thank God have never heard from her again!<P>It's tough to find he has been lying to you again, and he's right he didn't go out of his way to hide the bill or anything. It sounds like it is really motivated by compassion, but you guys need a total no contact so you can get on with your lives.<P>I hope he did get it, that you need a totally honest relationship. You don't want him to "protect" you that way. This too is very clear in SAA.<P>Jennifer Harley gave us two ways to rebuild trust. 1. He had to be completely honest and tell me anything I wanted to know.<P>2. He made his life an open book. He was to always give my #s where he could be reached, all his e-mail passwords, etc. It's when he wasn't hiding anything that he began to rebuild the trust. And he has, to the point that today he is in OWs country while I'm at home and I don't freak out anymore.<P>He cried on my shoulder during withdrawal, went through the guilt, we've become so close, I just know that he knows he has far too much to lose to do something stupid.<P>I get kinda long, but this is a good time for you to:<P>write a joint no contact letter (it is now the two of you together)<P>read SAA together and agree to live by the 4 rules<P>come up with a plan to best meet each other's needs and avoid lbs.<P>FC, this is a crucial time. I see others here (like Genie's recent post) that have been back together much longer, but have not rebuilt the relationship on new rules.<P>Now, it sounds like he's really listening and you need to go right into a real recovery. It is hard to do it without a coach. We benefitted tremendously from Jennifer Harley's coaching. I don't think it took more than 6 or 7 sessions and she got us moving in the right direction for sure.<P>She convinced my h that it had to be total no contact. He too was wavering, feeling sorry for OW. <P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Gosh FC, you did absolutely GREAT! Proud to know ya!<P>I would like to say something about the issue of trusting again.<P>My H had a EA/PA almost 10 years ago which resulted in 2 OCs (2 OW). When we reunited, we agreed that I could hold an "audit (for lack of a better term)" at anytime I felt insecure, anxious or suspicious.<P>For the first year I was always digging and very suspicious, then I started to believe that my H seemed committed to the marriage and loved me like I loved him. However, no matter how hard I tried and prayed I could never seem to 100% completely trust him again. I stopped auditing and stopped questioning him about things but in the back of my mind the mis-trust was always lurking. I tried to talk to him about it but he didn't understand, he felt I owed him unconditional trust from day one. And come to find out, he resented that year I audtited (for lack of better term) him.<P>I also have a very good friend who also has been betrayed, she too feels the same way, that the marriage is never the same in terms of trust after an affair.<P>How do you get past this? How do you trust again? Is it really possible to regain the trust you had when you first were married?<P>Jo

I completely agree with the poster who said that anyone who would sleep with a married person is NOT a nice person - at least, not while they are doing it, and not for a long time afterward, until they realize the error of their ways, ask their higher power for forgiveness, and forgive themselves for allowing themselves to fall prey to immorality. Until a cheating spouse and his/her affairs partner do that, they are *not* nice people in the least!<P>Too much leeway is given to the affairs partner in so many of these situations. "I feel sorry for her," IMHO, is not an excuse; if the betrayer really did feel sorry for the OP, the betrayer would send a letter of no contact and let the OP heal in peace, instead of dragging it on and on. In perpetuating the ending of an EMA, the betrayer is *not* doing it for the OP; the betrayer is doing it to alleviate his/her own guilt at having involved a third party. Maintaining involvement is strictly a selfish move on the betrayer's part, IMHO. It certainly doesn't do the OP any bit of good.<P>belld

Ok, time for my own PERSONAL two cents.<P>Don't we know several betrayers here that are nice people? Don't you know anyone in your life that has made a terrible mistake and gotten involved with a married person that is a nice person? These people on these boards (betrayers) have helped me tremendously get a glimpse of what is going on in the mind of a betrayer. Each time they post here to share their stories they risk getting lambasted by every betrayed spouse that posts here. Now, that is a nice person.<P>I know it's easier to hate OP. I have never and will never lay eyes on the OP in our situation thank God. But, wasn't OP just one half of the equation? What about our WS? Why don't we hate them for what they did? Are they not the ones that betrayed US? The OP does not matter. It could have been anyone and I for one am not going to blame OP for luring my H into a relationship. He went in with his eyes wide open and pursued her. It was his fault. He was married to me...not her.<P>I know we all hurt here. How many times have we wanted to get into our WS head and see what is going on in there? Well, every time a WS posts we have that opportunity. We don't have to guess. The proof is right here on these boards every day.<P>I know there are some OP out there that have done horrible things to us. I see the stories about restraining orders, drive by's, manipulative ploys. I am not saying all OP's are "nice" people...but the ones that hurt us IMO are our spouses. <P>Let's keep open minds here and learn what OP's are all about. <P>Now, if my H's OW was contacting me and hassling me and my kids I"m not sure I could be so forgiving. Some of you have been placed in unimaginable situations. I can't begin to understand what a phone call from OP would do to me...so no, I have not had to deal with that nightmare thank God.<P>Maybe I'm sort of "using" the WS on these boards to understand my H better. But they are good people and have helped me tremendously.<P>Ok, I'll step off my soapbox now.<BR>allison

az allison,<P>It's a whole different ball of wax when you've had to deal with BS from the OP. If OP had just disappeared I would not feel the hatred I do towards her. No I wouldn't like her, but I wouldn't hink much about her either way. She called and told me about the affair after H ended it (I had a pretty good idea there had been an affair and would have left it at that). First she was apologetic and weeping. Then when she found out I still loved H and was going to stay with him the claws came out. She said all kinds of hurtful things about hating me (first time we'd ever spoken), hating our unborn baby, how she was glad I was hurt, how she wasn't sorry at all for what she did, she told me she chased him for months, all kinds of stuff. She proceeded to spend the next few months making psychotic phone calls to him at work. Begging him to come back to her, telling him how much she hated him and me, how he was a loser for coming back to his family. I got hang up calls constantly all day and all night long. Guess she loved the sound of my voice. I know all OW aren't like this but I've met far too many others who have had similar experiences to mine to think it is an isolated incidence. She knew the only way to really hurt my H was to hurt me and she reveled in it. At least my H is very sorry for the pain he caused. If she could cause me more I'm sure she'd love to. No, not all OP are psychopaths but for those of us who have dealt with one try to understand where we're coming from.