This is a spinoff of a post that I entered in the PlanA/PlanB (topic "HELP, I'M SO CONFUSED !!!!!!!!!).<BR>Currently my H is still residing with his ex wife (as a boarder). That is where the subject title derives from.<BR>Last week my husband came over to "talk", but because of a very selfish reaction on his part regarding a missing material object, it turned into a full blown fight and even involved some physical confrontation on both our parts, but the visit didn't end on an angry note. After we both calmed down and could actually talk and not throw daggers(just a figure of speech) at each other my H asked me why I betrayed him to which I replied "there was something missing in our relationship" and to that I added that we will never be able to move forward if the EA cannot be dealt with and put behind us. I also added that we both need to be committed to the restoration of our marriage, and I told him that the first necessary step, is counseling. He agreed to join me and said that he would call me the following evening (Thursday) and get the necessary info. from me. He left that evening telling me all things aside that he loves me and I assured him of the same.<BR>Well, he never called me back that evening, which really didn't surprise me (he does that quite often). Anyway, not really sure I was doing the right thing, on Sunday evening I decided to call him and fill him in concerning the day, time and place for our first counseling session. Other than small talk, nothing was really discussed, and I didn't push the issue of our relationship. I was in the process of ending the phone call and I told him that I loved him, and I expected him to reply with the same, but he didn't. At that time I did question him about not responding by telling me that he loved me also. He said, "don't push it". It bothered me that he couldn't say it to me as he speaks to me, probably in the presence of his ex wife(who is just a dear friend). After a moment or two, he stepped outside of the house, to indulge in a tobacco product, and within a minute he said "by the way, I do love you, too". Why, if his ex wife is just a dear friend and offering a place to stay, can't my H tell me that he loves me in her presence. Is that a sign that there may be more to it, than just a case of dear friend giving my H a place to stay. I have been very suspicious of this arrangement since it started in mid February. I have been given several bits of information, as well as some of my own accidental findings, that just haunt me, no real substantial evidence. I've questioned my H, on ocassion, about why he chose such a temporary living arrangement. He told me that he really didn't have anywhere else to go. I really want to believe that the arrangement is strictly platonic, but I fear that he may be indulging in an EA with ex wife(dear friend). I don't know if I'm getting these strong gut feelings because of my own infidelity towards him, or are these feelings justifiable. It has crossed my mind to call his ex wife and speak to her of my need to satisfy my suspicions, not sure if she would be cooperative but, I'm afraid that is would put a severe strain on the restoration of my H's and my relationship. I would really like some helpful advice from anyone, about needing to know the truth and what is the best way to obtain it, if the above mentioned way is not feesible. I have been so consumed by this suspicion, that I'm starting to feel imprisoned with it. I desparately need the truth so that I can move forward in my stand to save my marriage. Can someone out there HELP, PLEASE? Thank you in advance to anyone or all who can give me some sound advise.<P>Chi(hopelessly devoted)

Hopelessly Devoted,<P>I read your other post and now this one. I am confused. You want to restore your marriage, but you ordered you H out of his/your home. He went where he is wanted apparently and you are confused that he may have feelings for the exW?<P>It seems obvious to me that exW still has feelings for your H or he wouldn't be rooming there. Given that you have cheated on him and then ordered him out, I wouldn't be surprised that he is developing feelings for her. He has been hurt and is vulnerable.<P>In fact when thinking about this I cannot imagine it occuring any other way. So I wouldn't be suspicious, if I were you. You know that given his vulnerable state and the presence of a women he once loved that eventually some feelings are going to develop.<P>Now if you would like to try and restore you marriage, perhaps you might want to consider asking your H to return to your home. I would bet that since you ordered him out, there is no way he is going to ask to come back, especially since you have also cheated on him.<P>I hope that by now you have read the Plan A material that is on the board. Have you begun to evaluate your role in making the marriage what it was before the affair? Do you have some ideas about how to meet his needs? I hope so.<P>I guess my first recommendation after reading all of this material is to try and get him back into the home with you. It is much easier to rebuild trust and love face to face than to do what you are doing now. Even the counseling is more likely to be used if there isn't this distance in your relationship.<P>There is definetly hope for your marriage, but it will take work on your part and probably swallowing some pride. Hang in there and keep posting. You will receive some very good advice here.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

hopelessly,<P>I'm going to be honest with you, and this might hurt. After the first serious pangs of the betrayal wear off and the crying is all over, sometimes - oftentimes, I've found - that the betrayed are sort of numb. They *have* to separate from the topic, out of a matter of self-preservation. That's what I had to do ... I had to separate myself from my H, or else I would go crazy and have a breakdown. I mean that literally. There were times when I was crying so hard, I couldn't see to drive to work. After a certain point, you run reach that threshold of pain, where you don't feel anymore. Nothing matters anymore. All you can focus on is your own survival. Perhaps your H is at that stage. My H is attempting to work on things, and seems to really mean it. And yet I find myself avoiding his phone calls and dreading wanting anything to do with him. I've finally achieved peace and happiness, and he is a living, walking, reminder of the pain I went through. <P>I'm not well enough for that. My heart has just healed. Once it forms enough scar tissue and toughens up a bit, well ... maybe. <P>But please understand ... the person who does not have the affair will *not* continue hanging on to the pain, particularly when it seems as there is no hope. There is a certain window of time during which things can be made right. I don't know your whole story, so I would be loathe to give you my opinion just yet. Perhaps the affair went on too long. Perhaps you didn't tell him enough, soon enough. Perhaps you didn't show enough remorse (this is where I beg to differ w/ Dr. Harley - anyone who doesn't show true, honest remorse will never, ever cultivate my respect again). Who knows? There are a million different variables here. The spouse who didn't have an affair will be watching your behavior under a microscope for a very long time. There is a LOT of spade work involved here.<P>belld

JL, I would first like to thank you for your post and the honesty contained within, but I must clear up some confusion here. When I ordered my husband out of the home, it was before I found marriagebuilders.com and PlanA/PlanB. I was frustrated, angry, with myself for what I'd done and no matter how remorseful I was my husband continued to treat me like a roommate and it was driving me crazy, literally. I did ask my husband to come back home a few days after he left, but he just wouldn't. I've asked him a couple of times since, and he just doesn't even want to discuss it. <P>My main question, in my post, wasn't answered, JL. Do I attempt to find out, from the exW, if there is anything going on?<BR>I've asked my H, even made insinuations, but he always denies any fornicating.<P>I guess, I just can't picture my H, who really hates what I did, still loves me and shows me with passionate hugs and kisses, occasionally, wanting to justify his "wounded pride", by fornicating with his exW. If you knew my H, like I know him, you would understand why I find it really hard to believe that he would be capable of carrying on in such a way.<P>I want to so much, to believe, that he isn't fornicating with exW, but my mind and gut continue to ponder on that POSSIBILITY.

JL, I would first like to thank you for your post and the honesty contained within, but I must clear up some confusion here. When I ordered my husband out of the home, it was before I found marriagebuilders.com and PlanA/PlanB. I was frustrated, angry, with myself for what I'd done and no matter how remorseful I was my husband continued to treat me like a roommate and it was driving me crazy, literally. I did ask my husband to come back home a few days after he left, but he just wouldn't. I've asked him a couple of times since, and he just doesn't even want to discuss it. <P>My main question, in my post, wasn't answered, JL. Do I attempt to find out, from the exW, if there is anything going on?<BR>I've asked my H, even made insinuations, but he always denies any fornicating.<P>I guess, I just can't picture my H, who really hates what I did, still loves me and shows me with passionate hugs and kisses, occasionally, wanting to justify his "wounded pride", by fornicating with his exW. If you knew my H, like I know him, you would understand why I find it really hard to believe that he would be capable of carrying on in such a way.<P>I want to so much, to believe, that he isn't fornicating with exW, but my mind and gut continue to ponder on that POSSIBILITY.

OOPS! JL, I accidentally hit a key that posted my reply before completed it. Here is the rest.<P>Could it be, that subconsciously I may want it to be a possibility? Maybe, to relieve my own pain, associated with my guilt, resulting from my infidelity. I don't know, I just can't seem to function because of the unanswered question, (IS HE OR IS HE NOT?). It's eating at my sanity.<P>So, do I try to get satisfaction by trying to get an answer from the exW, or not? That is the question. I've done my pride swallowing, it's H that is imprisoned by his pride, his "I'm the victim" attitude, his unwillingness to accept his responsibility in this case. Like the old saying goes, "It takes two to tango", in a relationship, it takes two to make it or break it.<P>JL, there is so much that took place in the seven years,almost eight, that I was with H. There's been abuse (emotional, physical, verbal), administered by both of us. There's been abuse of alcohol and drugs(the drugs were done by H). So, you see, my H really needs to understand and accept the fact that we created this mess TOGETHER and in order to repair it, we need to do it TOGETHER, and be COMMITTED. That is what I'm trying to get through to my husband, but presently he's stuck in state of denial.<P>I just got a thought in my head. I thought of sending H a formal invitation to a meeting with me, somewhere special (a B&B came to mind), and a way for us to be alone and really discuss what we'd like for our relationship. Does that sound like a good idea?<P>Well I'll wait to get a response from you JL. Once again, I thank you for the reply. Let me leave you with some food for thought, JESUS FORGIVES THE WOMAN TAKEN IN ADULTERY, as written in John 8:3-11. Let he who has never sinned, cast the first stone.<P>belldandy, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you, also, for your reply. Yes, it hurts, but I've done so much research on the process of marriage restoration, and the pain that is associated with it.<P>I can understand my H need for separation from the "topic" but, he's been out of the house for 5 1/2 months now, and he's not given much indication that he would be returning any time soon.<P>I'm hoping that he will give it some more thought after our counseling session, Aug. 4th. In the mean time, the thought that he could possibly be fornicating with exW, bears heavy on my mind and heart. It certainly can't be considered, justifiable.<BR>Least ways, not in the eyes of our Lord.<BR>I'm so tempted to call the exW and get some answers from her, but as I indicated above, I don't know if that would be helpful or destructive to the restoration process. I need some heartfelt advise, here.<P><BR>thank you again JL and belldandy, GOD BLESS YOU, both.<BR>

Hi Hopelessly Devoted,<P>You know, your last post is really bugging me. I will try not to be rude to you, as I know you are hurting right now, but jeez...give the guy a break!<P>Yeah, Jesus does forgives the woman taken in adultery...this is good, must help you sleep nights, but right now you have to work on your H forgiving you. You think you are hurting??? Walk a mile in his shoes. You know, I appreciate the betrayers on these boards, have learned a lot from them, and maybe you could too. Have you read posts from them? They have learned how to reassure their wounded spouses and work through their own pain at the same time. <P>You've done your pride swallowing? Does your H hear that from you? YOu have only just begun to swallow your pride, and you will need to learn that he needs way more help here than you justifying your affair by blaming him for years of a crappy marriage. Do you care about your H, or are you just feeling jealous right now because he's living with ex/wife? Maybe, just maybe she's giving him some of the care right now that you are not providing him. Maybe she's meeting HIS needs.<P>I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you need to get off your high horse and look at what you've done to this man. This is not all about you. He is HURTING right now, and will go anywhere to get some relief from that pain...so yeah, maybe he and ex are "fornicating"...I doubt it. But until you start facing what YOU have done here, I would not blame him if ex was looking pretty darn good right now.<P>Sorry if this is too blunt for you. Your post is so full of ME ME ME that I couldn't keep my feelings in. Have you actually read any MB info? You really need to do this ASAP. You need to start looking at the big picture here, and not just what you want. This man has been wounded beyond comprehension. You have obviously forgiven yourself and placed blame on both of you for your affair. Maybe he isn't ready to face his part in this. Maybe you should use Plan A to get your husband back.<P>So, your original queston about fornication...well, I would not call the ex, she has no obligation to help you here. She may just want H back, and she's in a pretty good position right now to get him. If you don't want that to happen start learning and accepting what he is going through.<P>allison

Hopelessly Devoted,<P>You touched upon two very important points. One, the state of the marriage before your affair is the product of both you and your H. However, the affair is all yours. You broke that vow and it has obviously hurt your H a great deal.<P>You are very worried if your H has "fornicated" with his exW. If this is bothering you consider what you H felt when you were having your affair and how he feels now. <P>Why am I asking you to consider this?<BR>Because once you begin to understand where he is you will begin to understand how to repair the damage. Since you are the one that is asking about how to repair your marriage you get the job of doing the repair. Had your H come here he would have been told it was his job to start the repair work.<P>So let's address this issue of H and exW. I have no idea if he is sleeping with exW. My guess he isn't, but I would definetly guess that he is becoming emotionally attached to her. If I were you I would be much more concerned about that issue right now. <P>Why do I say that, because as you know the emotional attachments are much harder to stop and they cause the people attached to see things in a very strange way. For example, if he is becoming attached to her again, then your marriage will not look like it is worth fighting for.<P>Further, I would worry about the emotional attachment more in this case because he was married to this woman before and has obviously been in bed with her. So there is nothing new there. I know this sounds callous to you, but that is reality.<P>I suppose you could ask her is she is sleeping with him and she will say no. But the more important question is: Is she developing feelings for your H? Or is he developing them for her?<P>I think you idea of inviting him away for a weekend is excellent. However, go prepared. Read what is on this site. Think very very carefully about what has happened. Why it happened and remember the affair was all, and I mean all, your fault. The state of the marriage you both contributed to.<P>Further, upon rereading your posts, I realized something else you need to consider. You stated: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was frustrated, angry, with myself for what I'd done and no matter how remorseful I was my husband continued to treat me like a roommate and it was driving me crazy, literally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Lady, how did you expect him to treat you? Delighted that you cockold him? Happy that you had given you love and body to someone else? I really don't think you realize what you did to your H. az allison was trying to get you to see the damage. <P>You further said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess, I just can't picture my H, who really hates what I did, still loves me and shows me with passionate hugs and kisses, occasionally, wanting to justify his "wounded pride", by fornicating with his exW. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You see his "pride" isn't wounded. His faith in you and the marriage vows have been destroyed utterly. You hit him where it really hurts, deep in his heart. You lack of understanding about this probably indicates to you that you cannot be trusted with his heart again. <P>He will need to see that you truely understand what you have done. He will need over a length period of time, to develop trust in you. Where is this going to come from? You! You are going to have to show him you have some idea where he is coming from.<P>Az allison, mentioned that you post was about me, me, me. You are worried if he slept with exW, but don't indicate that you have an inkling of the pain he is/was in, although you are in pain worrying about the possibility of his violation of the marriage vows. Oh! one thing to remember it sounds to me like the two of you violated many of your vows before your affair, love, honor, etc, don't sound like they had much meaning either.<P>So HD, think about this. You are unlikely to get the truth even if they are sleeping together. But you should be worried about the emotional attachment more, in my opinion. <BR>If you really want this marriage to work your idea of getting together with H for a weekend is great, but please please read the materials here about Plan A and the concept of no Love Busters. Realize that he is probably more interested in the affair than in the state of the marriage before the affair. That will need to be addressed later. First, he must heal from this as must you.<P>Think about it. OK?<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS Personally, I wouldn't ask the exW about sleeping with him, you already know the answer you are going to get. If things deteriorate further, you will know your answer.

thank you az, I really do appreciate any response right now, even if it is painfully eye opening. I'm not sure how I can make my husband hear anything, as long as he resides with exW,that is counterproductive to the restoration, don't you think? The question you asked "Do you care about your H, or are you just feeling jealous right now because he's living with exW?" My answer to that is I LOVE MY HUSBAND, and if a woman wasn't a little jealous in my case, they better check for a pulse. You know what, az, I've been into sooooo many websites researching my situation and looking for answers, but have never been shot down quite as bluntly as you have done with your reply. Don't get me wrong, maybe it's what I really need, as I mentioned above. az, how do I go about implementing PlanA, to get my husband back, when my husband and I don't even talk that much right now. I went over what PlanA is, and this is what I read: Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover. How, do I apply that, when I am not the betrayed spouse. I separated from the OM the day that I moved back in with my husband (in February, this year). I have not communicated in any way with the OM, he moved back to CA. I also want to let you, az, know that I do know how badly I've hurt my H, and I also made that known to him. I've apologized over and over again. He knows how very sorry I am and how much I love him, and he says that he loves me, too. So why, won't he come home now and try to work on this face to face? Or if he really needs to be separated from me, why can't he change where he resides(he knows that it hurts me, that he resides with ex). Can you sort of see where I'm coming from?<BR>It's as if he's using his resentment of me and the affair, by continuing to stay at ex's house, to hurt me. If Plan A is for the betrayed spouse, it states that if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoutfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him/her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talkto the lover again. I've already done that, az. Please read over Plan A again, and advise me how I can apply that to the restoration of my marriage as the betrayer.<BR>Thank you, again for your reply. Looking forward to reading your next reply, honestly.<BR>Sincerely, HD

HD,<P>You asked a very good question about Plan A. But there are several aspects of it that will help you. First, the concept of Love Busters. Realize what they are and avoid them. Each person has slightly different ones but don't try to educate your H. Don't get into arguements. This doesn't mean you cannot state your view or position, but do it in calm and "logical" manner. <P>The other part of the Plan A is to evaluate our role in the marriage. What were you doing that made it so bad to the spouse? Well, in your case do you know why you left your H and had the affair? Can you tell him with some certainity that you can change so that it won't happen again? Do you see your part in the state of the marriage before the affair? Obviously it wasn't in good shape, but it wasn't just him was it?<P>You are absolutely correct that Plan A is normally for the betrayed, but your H has left home and he doesn't want to come back, so in some senses you are like the betrayed.<P>Finally, whenever you see or talk with H, be pleasant, be as upbeat as you can, tell him you love him, but don't expect to hear it back right now.<P>You see HD, these are the things we all should be doing in our marriage anyway regardless of betrayer/betrayed/or no infidelity. It is a different way to address things. Have you read Harley's 4 rules for a good marriage? Do so if you can. They are pretty much common sense but it is surprising how often we fail them. Read the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) another good way to go about a marriage.<P>You can do this, but it will take work, time and patience. Most of all patience.<P>You may be right your H is doing this to punish you in someway, but he may have fallen out of love with you as well. That is the part that takes time and patience. You can rebuild the love, be the woman he married. Think about the things he liked about you and be yourself again.<P>Hang in there HD, this can be accomplished.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi again HD,<P>Sorry my earlier post was too blunt. I tend to do that now and then, when I am frustrated. It's just that your post seemed like you were pretty self-absorbed. <P>Okay, your questions were really good, and JL posted a great reply. Couldn't have done better myself. If I were you I'd go about a Plan A since you want what we betrayed want...our spouses back. <P>It may not fit the description of what Plan A is all about, but I still think it's your best bet. You are now competing with another woman for your H. <P>So, take it for what it's worth, make it fit your situation. Some on here take the Plan A thing very literally, but most I see kind of use it as it best fist their needs. Plan A for life is a phrase you'll see used here, but it's not really in the description of the plan...but I gotta say, I think it's the way to go.<P>Can you ask H out on a date? Somewhere you can talk quietly? Can you tell him again how you will try to make this up to him? Can you ask him what is keeping him from coming home? No fighting, yelling, demanding. No trying to teach him MB principles or any other plan for restoring your marriage. Just listen, let him tell you the pain he experienced, even if it is in the past for you and you don't want to think about it. He may need to tell you over and over again how badly he feels.<P>Keep posting. I promise I'll be nicer in future posts (hey, I might even Plan A you!)<BR>Thanks for not thinking I'm a horrible person.<BR>allison