Hi, I've not posted in a while. Was dealing with the aftermath of my affair 20 months ago and HGBrawner was a GOD-SEND recommending "TORN ASUNDER"! I'm a pastor's wife in Florida. I emailed you a few times but that was on a different server/address that we no longer use. It was mikenrobin@freewwweb.com. If HG see's this post, please email me at robinnmike@fcol.com<P>If you'd rather not email me for privacy's sake, I understand. I am looking for resources to particularly address an occasional challenge. In numerous good books it is recommended that the grieving and sorting of the pain of the affair be acknowledged. Here's my problem. For how long do we continue to do this? I would think for as long as is necessary. BUT I have trouble with several issues surrounding this. <P>I feel that I've "fought like a dog" to desperately grasp ahold of God's forgiveness and view of myself, following the affair. The affair THANKFULLY didn't "go all the way" but that hasn't removed the self-disappointment, shame and guilt, though it's lessening as I get glimpses of God's forgiveness. My husband is a melancholy sort (don't know if you're familiar with Tim LaHaye's materials on temperaments or not). He's a deep-thinker, introverted, etc. He expresses his forgiveness of me for the past affair. But when we get into occasional arguments it usually centers around one issue; Him referring to "what I've proven about my commitment to him by the past affair" which I take as him referring to "how I was THEN" and trying to "take me BACK to that/equating me to that" while ignoring the things I've done for the past 20 months to rebuild us, our marriage and even my own self-image. I acknowledge there IS NO DEFENSE for myself having committed adultery. But how long do I "stay the past adulterer", I guess is where I'm at.<P>My view is that my husband is in no way responsible for my past affair. I've taken full responsibility for it by; having found and scheduled counseling for 17 months (I insisted that we continue when the counselor was ready to let us go at 6 months), I told several leadership families in the church to make myself accountable to, I told a close Christian friend who's not in our church so as to make myself accountable, I've read every book I can get my hands on re. recovery following adultery, I've hesitantly re-entered the pulpit to occasionally lead worship after a year of recovering, etc. My point is that I don't feel I've taken any of this lightly. But I do feel that somewhere in all of this, we have GOT to move forward instead of forever examining the past pain, betrayal and all that it entailed. <P>I noticed that in Harley's book he made reference to the husband not "being allowed to discuss the past affair" while he and his wife were rebuilding their marriage. I wonder where the middle road is to acknowledging/validaing the pain without destroying budding positive feelings toward each other.<P>Sorry so long.<P>Robin

Hi Robin,<P>I too was helped greatly by HGBrawner in the past and reading her posts. I really don't think she reads the board or posts much anymore. <P>It sounds as though you have fought hard for your marriage. But it also sounds as though your husband is having a real hard time with forgiveness....and you say he is a minister.<P>I really don't have much advice for you except to hang in there. Keep proving your love to him. 20 months seems like a long time, but remember...baby steps.<P>What types of resources exactly are you looking for?<P>Well, I hope that HGB does happend to see this and reply to you.

HGB has responded to some posts on the recovery board recently. You might want to try there.

Robino:<P>HGB will pop in occasionally on the Recovery and Just Found Out sections. You can search for her posts by user name---I wasn't able to pull a new address up for her (the old one I have is her "Juno" address).<P>I suggest that you post over at "In recovery" for her.<P>I'd also suggest that you might want to have your husband try the phone counseling at MarriageBuilders. It's pretty clear that resentment is what's screwing up your recovery now, and your husband has to take responsibility for that. I think that Steve Harley would be able to help him deal with this in a productive manner and get him over the hump. The office can be reached at 888-639-1639---I suggest that if your husband won't voluntarily do the counseling, that you start without him. Steve will get him involved soon enough.<P>

Thank you each, kindly, for sending me to the forum that HGBrawner frequents. I appreciate your help in the matter.<P>As to the counseling, sounds great to me and I'm certain my husband is totally open to the idea, as well. We are quite stumped on this one. I've read loads of books on recovery and he recently picked up "AFTER THE AFFAIR" by Janis Abrahms Spring. It's very good. At the beginning she refers to "if you're having more discussions in your head than with your spouse, that needs to be reversed to help resolve issues". He said that fits him. We've discussed some issues "to death", it seems. But we've both been happy to do so hoping for it to help lessen the pain/sting of it all. It has for the most part. <P>I'm just confused a tad about the "TOTAL HONESTY REGARDING OUR FEELINGS" thing that Willard Harley addresses in his book, "SURVIVING AN AFFAIR". He speaks of the importance of it and I FULLY AGREE that THAT ALONE would have been the BENEFICIAL way for me to deal with the draw toward an affair. Had I done it, we wouldn't be here today! But Harley ALSO made passing reference in the above book to the betrayed husband "not being allowed to discuss the affair with his wife" because it would so drastically reduce the "love units" he was working so hard to RE-deposit into her. <P>Sooooooooooo, where's the line, here? I don't see us as being able to "avoid" discussing it. Frankly, I can see that we MUST be able to discuss it. I may be wrong, but I've surmised in the past 24 hours that the REAL issue might be the ATTITUDE with which we discuss it. If we can keep it as "out there with US against IT" as possible, we do well. But when we start getting into the "You've proven yourself uncommitted to me by the past affair and WHAT do I do NOW with these strong, conflicting emotions you're past actions have introduced into my life" <--that's what my husband would say. Then I begin feeling defensive of my PRESENT actions that I'm as happy to demonstrate as "the day is long" and I start pointing out, "No, that was me THEN and that WAS betrayal. But THAT is not who I AM NOW as my actions continue to show you and will continue to do so." Eventually, it erupts into him saying how unfair it is that he's having to figure out how to sort thru what my own past wrong choices have brought about. And I erupt into how disappointed I felt in him/abandoned emotionally prior to the affair while stating that in NO WISE excuses the affair and that HE and I can WORK ON THAT!!! (That likely insults him because it comes across as "making light" of his pain, which is not my intention. Admittedly, I DO want us to move ahead, as well.) Obviously, it goes down from there. <P>Thankfully, this doesn't happen often--perhaps only once every few weeks/couple of months. But it's a "LOO-LOO" when it does hit. <P>Must run, church time.<BR>Robin

Hi Robin,<P>Just as HGBrawner was, I am a Christian...(and I am a practicing Christian). But I am also the betrayer.<P>I feel certain that HGBrawner would suggest counseling. She did over and over again to me...but I would not listen. I thought we could handle it on our own. I didn't want to go that route if it was possible to avoid it. I had all sorts of excuses...couldn't afford it, etc. Well, I eventually decided I could not afford NOT to do it.<P>We were lucky. We have a very good Christian counselor. Things come out in the sessions and it is much easier to discuss things with that mediator there. We have made so much progress since we started.<P>She also told me once when I was alone at a session with her...Remember the story of the woman that committed adultery? And Jesus asked her "woman, where are your accusers?" and she replied "there are none" and he answered and said "then neither do I accuse you, go and sin no more". Jesus forgave her and told her to go and change her actions. <P>Well, in our marriages we need to get to that point that we can put it in the past....behind us. We can't keep opening the old wound. Your husband is having trouble doing this and maybe with the help of a counselor, both of you could be more reassured in your marriage.<P>Well, good luck...and I am here to help if I could.

Robin,<P>Have you read your h's thread?<P>At least what he said there was really clear. Do you have long talks where you can discuss your feelings and feel safe? Do you allow him the same??<P>I identified with what he said about wanting to feel safe. I too felt that since my h took the easy out when things were tough, would he desert me if I was incapacitated for some reason and unable to meet his needs?<P>And next time, would he please tell me how unhappy he is and leave me first rather than going behind my back again?<P>I don't know about your h, but all I wanted was a simple yes. If he became so unhappy with me again, he would tell me, leave, but not sneak behind my back.<P>He said he feels old, injured, vulnerable. I don't think he's trying to punish you at all.

Robin:<P>I posted under your husband's thread and I wanted to read your threads, unfortunately, as always, I seem to be almost out of time before another appointment...<P>I did see schizzo's reply to you and wanted to agree with it. The discussion both you and your husband described sounded like it could have been between my husband and me (only he was the betrayer in our relationship).<P>If I could tell my husband one thing--no holds barred with no love busting involved--it would be that I don't want to beat him up about the affairs (plural in his case), but sometimes it is so hard to feel good about myself when I think about him sleeping with another person that I still need reassurance. I don't know when I will be okay with myself again, but I don't bring her up to bring him down. I am scared about myself and terrified to think that I'll be blindsided again... <P>I don't want to live in the past, but I still need reassurance that he isn't either and isn't regretting being here with me.<P>I'm sorry that you and your husband are going through a rough time again, but please don't despair. You can get through it, but only if you face it and not just try to shut it away.<P>Good luck! --HBC

Have you ever seen the movie Groundhog Day? I don't even really remember the plot, except he keep waking up and it was the same day.<P>I have found that is what it is kind of like in recovery. We are 18+ months into my H's affairette, that he was walking away from when I caught him.<P>We are fine, I honestly don't think he will ever do such a thing again, and although I yearn for our marriage to be a higher day to day priority with him in terms of intimacy, we have a good solid loving marriage.<P>Yet I get the same insecurities over and over. I can label them as irrational, but then I think how I never thought he could do such a thing in the first place...and then my mind starts spinning like a back tire stuck in a snow drift.<P>I need reassurance over and over, and although I don't much bring up the affair, it is evident to both of us where this "new" insecurity stems from. It has nothing to do with punishment or unforgiveness. Just pain and the memory of pain and probably the fear of pain.<P>One practical suggestion is to have the commitment/affair issue forbidden when you argue. Argue whatever the subject and make a pact to drop it if either of you brings it up. Take a time out and continue the arguement when you are both less emotionally charged.<P>However, do counseling, read, talk..whatever it takes so the issue isn't festering underneath the surface. After all, both of you really do want the marriage and really do want to heal, so you are on the same side.<P>Take care!<P>

Robin,<P>I have read both yours and your H's posts. I have a few thoughts for you consider and surprise surprise, they are very much along the lines of the previous posts to you.<P>It seems to me you have a different view of your H, than he does of himself. In fact, it would seem from his comments so does your counselor. Let me take a wild stab in the dark.<P>You see your H as someone a bit better than the average man. A bit smarter. More knowledgable about the human condition. More in tune with human feelings and failings.<P>He sees himself as simply a man. Getting older, body failing him, and not particularly gifted in understanding people especially his wife. In fact I suspect he feels he failed his wife serverely or this wouldn't have happened.<P>Now why do I mention this? Well, you touched upon it. You are misinterpreting what he is saying because you see him differently than he sees himself. <P>If he really is smarter, better at handling the human condition, more in tune with human frailities, how then can he not realize your remorse and the changes you have made? I mean the only reason he would bring this subject up is to punish you. After all his depth of understanding and Godliness, should clearly protect him and heal him.<P>He on the other hand, sees nothing but failure, not on your part, but on his part. I failed my wife and she needed someone else. He is having difficulty not in forgiving you, but handling the pain of his failure. The realization that he needs you but is not sure you need him. You, at one point, were ready to give him up. He doesn't feel healed, he feels weak and he needs reassurance that you will help him. <P>But you are not used to really helping him are you? You view him as the strong one, don't you? Most women proclaim they would like their H's to be more sensitive, more vulnerable, but only toward the women's problems. Really women are conditioned to expect men to be strong and not need the type of help and reassurance your H is asking for.<P>It seems to me you need to realize who he really is. He needs to realize he has more strength than he knows, and by the way he is still young in my book, . <P>Robin, stop thinking this just about him not forgiving. It is not about forgiveness at all. It is about healing and he needs your help in the healing. He needs to talk to his best friend about how he feels and how he sees himself. You are his best friend, Robin.<P>Please think about this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you each for the assistance. I really DO want to be SUPPORTIVE and AFFIRMING, and I THANK YA'LL for believing that of me in your responses.<P>JL, WOW!!! I think you "been there--done that"!!! I DO see what you were saying and it speaks VOLUMES to me!!! THANK-YOU!!! (I must now look up your other posts to better grasp my husband's way of thinking.) <P>I thank you ALL for "taking my hand" and connecting "my island" to my husband's in this challenge. I think I'm seeing a need to assure him more of his value to me. And I'd not ponderedd that HE needs it as much, assuming him to "surely KNOW" how GREAT A PERSON he is...at least in part. I mustn't assume that!!!<P>THANKS and GOD BLESS,<BR>Robin

Robin,<P>It is not my posts you need to read, but your H's. Read his and then read yours. I think you will see the obvious. He has forgiven you, he is having a hard time with himself.<P>You two are making the normal mistake of assuming it is all about you. It is not. On one level he seems to be over your affair, what he is not over is the damage to him and how he preceives himself. <P>It seems to me if you help him, you will greatly rewarded.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: I may be wrong but I think that Harley was talking about the H not burdening the WS with his feeling while trying to get her back into the marriage. At some point these injuries much be addressed, but I believe Harley meant that they need to be addressed after many other things are settled. <P>You and H are going to remain married. You have taken the responsibility for the affair and it sound as if the two of you are working on improving your marriage. It is time to help your H, Robin. It is time.<P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 27, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 27, 2000).]

I AM reading his posts, over and over and OVER I'm reading his posts. I plan to continue to do so. I simply appreciate not being slapped down so much that I can actually HEAR something in a way that MAKES SENSE to me. As you must know, there are MANY strong emotions surrounding recovery from an affair--on both sides of the coin. I look for ways that I can "get a handle" on concepts that assist ME in assisting my husband toward feeling whole again. <P>Thanks, and no reprimands, please. I've had enough of those for a lifetime, mostly from myself! I appreciate you taking the time to put it in a way I (simple-minded or over-analyzing and stumbling over the obvious) can GRASP. Thanks for me AND my husband!!! We're both reading, here. <P>Robin

Robin,<P>Do his posts now seem different to you? I hope so. It is so hard to see these things when you are in the middle of them. That is why this board can be so useful. Other people look at the same words and see something different, through the filter of their experience.<P>Robin you aren't going to be slapped down here. No one who is trying to rebuild their marriage gets slapped down. <P>Keep reading and posting. I hope that you and your H will see things a bit differently. I sense that you two will do just fine, once you are on the same wavelength.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

ABSOLUTELY, JL, ABSOLUTELY!!! I printed out your post to put in my notebook and reread. We have so many of our OWN "issues" to sort through that it "muddies the waters" from time to time. <P>I've had a VERY HARD TIME SEPARATING my husband's present PAIN from the PAST adultery. Not that it could POSSIBLY be gone since the affair is over, either!!! But it helps me to interpret it as "someone recovering from surgery" (still tender but HEALING and WANTING to heal) as opposed to someone who's seemed to ME to keep "reopening the wound site" by STABBING at it. Do you see what I mean? I can SEE that it's ONE THING to have a completely UNINVITED "pull or tenderness" from a past surgery that we need to attend to and be certain that we're healing healthily, as opposed to how I've seen it as "him REOPENING the STITCHES" and UNDOING our WORK toward healing. <P>Don't know why, but your post has altered my interpretation. <P>Yes, I DO see his statements differently, now!!!<P>Robin

Robin,<P>I like your analogy. I do think you are getting it . Really, it seems to me you have done the very normal things. You have focussed on your failure, to your beliefs and to yourself. You realize you have seriously hurt those that loved you. <BR>But as I think your H was trying to point out, he feels like he failed you as well. When you "confessed" to your failing to the elders of the church, you were also confessing his failures as a husband.<P>That really hasn't been dealt with except perhaps to examine the state of the marriage before the affair. Yet, he still gets those twinges, that he might fail again and lose you, hence he asked you would tell him if you are going to leave. He is asking that if he fails would you give him a heads up.<P>You mentioned the unexpected pulls on the wound. There is a term for this type of thing here they are called "triggers". Something will happen in daily life and trigger those awful feelings. Everyone here seems to go through it and I know it is perfectly normal, because if you have a lost a loved one (you lost your Mother I believe) something will cause you to remember her and the sadness floods back. It happens unbidden but it still happens. My wife and I have lost many family members and those triggers last for decades, but the do diminish or the pain is replaced with good thoughts. <P>You know this and that is what your H is dealing with. Further, while I consider him young (only 45) he is getting to an age we all get to. We evaluate how we have done in life and somehow it is never as good as we could of done. Those feelings of failure come creeping in and doubts (Oh man the doubts), this coupled with your situation and his doubts about himself as a husband are what you are dealing with.<P>He is not trying to hurt you. In fact he realized more than ever how important you are to him, but how to handle the failure? That is the issue. <P>In someways Robin, the affair and aftermath have covered up some very natural things. So I hope you both have a look at this from this new perspective. It seems to me you have done all you can do to heal the damage to yourself with the support of your family and your H. The marriage is going to survive and maybe be better than ever in many aspects. <BR>But he now needs your help. It has only be 20 months. It is time to stop focussing on the affair and focus on the final aspects of healing.<P>Think about all of this and take care.<P>God Bless,<P>JL