I have a friend, in his 60's, that has gotten involved with a 20 year old girl. He is a church elder and is an assistant pastor wiht the church. At least he was. He just resigned his postition with the church. He has a very high profile position in the community and has been responsible for many people being saved in the past. Only a few people know of what has happened now, but it is going to sweep through the community. The man has been a pillar for many people through the years. Right now he dosen't want to talk about it, I didn't mention he is married, even with his wife. Apparently, the relationship with the young girl, has been going on for a couple of months. He has an extended family with grandchildren and they don't know anything about it yet. Just his grown children and their spouses and a few members of the community. The man seems fairly unrepentent right now and I am not sure if he has completely given up the young girl. His wife is going to counseling. He has made the statement that he will call the pastor if he wants to talk to him. I am still in shock but want to be of some use. He was one of my best friends. He has been a very independent business man his entire life and has had a hard edge about him at times. That hard edge is very evident right now. I would have thought after being caught being with somebody more than 40 years his junior, he would have been repentent. My wife and I are going to prayer about this but I was looking for suggestions on how to approach someone that dosen't want to be approached and is not looking for counseling. I was one of his closest friends.

s.eagle,<P>My suggestion is don't approach him. This is really between the man, his wife, the OW and maybe his children. What is broken you cannot fix. If he asks for advice or just wants to open up then fine, but if you read here, the betrayer will have a hard enough time dealing with what he has done. Other people "volunteering" to help him will not be received well.<P>Once this all sorts out, I am sure he will seek the counsel of the minister of the church, but that may be awhile yet.<P>Just my opinion, but think about it.<P>JL

Hi SEagle:<P>I'm sure that someday you'll be able to help your friend when he becomes able to accept or needs help.<P>He probably is still in the midst of the affair right now and not capable of doing any reasonable thinking.<P>My H also had a high profile job in the community, respected and admired for his astuteness and integrity. All that is gone now, given up to pursue a fantasy relationship with OW. It's a high price to pay, a price that very few people are worth. <P>It's strange that even in the face of losing everything they have, the WS will still cling to the OW like a lifesaver...like the most important thing in their life. If only he could realize that the lifesaver has holes in it and he will drown unless he can swim back to shore...back to home.<P>I hope your friend lets go before he loses everything.<P>Buffy<p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 28, 2000).]

I would talk to him, in a compassionate, loving way. My first thought would be "what would Jesus do?". The following scriptures come to mind:<P>MT 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over."<P>Matt. 18:16] "But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won't accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector."<P>Pray long and hard about it before hand, asking the Lord to go before you in every contact you have with this man. It is better that he be momentarily angry then to burn.<P>Also, the following scriptures from Matthew come to mind: <P>Matthew18:7 "How terrible it will be for anyone who causes others to sin. Temptation to do wrong is inevitable, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. 8 So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better to enter heaven crippled or lame than to be thrown into the unquenchable fire with both of your hands and feet. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better to enter heaven half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."<P>He knows what he is doing is wrong, but has allowed the enemy to get a foot in the door. I pray that the Lord will give you His wisdom and caring concerning this situation, and will lay on your heart what it is He wants you to do. God bless you,<P>AW

FROM A PASTOR'S WIFE who committed adultery.<P>Please, please, PLEASE love your friend ENOUGH to get the book "BEYOND FORGIVENESS" by Don Baker!!! This is the ONLY BOOK we've found that directly addresses adultery in the church and a GODLY, SCRIPTURAL response to it. <P>I would venture to guess that your friends "edge of hardness" MAY have something to do with how he himself has always perceived adultery--as wrong, unjustifiable, inexcuseable, the epitome of using another person for carnal egotistical gain, etc. He MAY NOT be as hard as he appears (though I could CERTAINLY BE WRONG). I was MORTIFIED at what responses I would receive. But their are SCRIPTURAL GUIDELINES of HOW WE ARE TO RESPOND to "those in leadership positions" regarding ongoing sin. <P>FIRSTLY, we are NOT to be as concerned about "our OWN (or the churches) reputation" as we are concerned that the one "taken in sin" be restored, IF POSSIBLE. Remember the story about the 99 sheep and the one that strayed? Jesus was willing to "sully Himself" as an intercessor and high priest (taking our place) by taking on OUR sins in order to show the Father's love and willingness to redeem us from our own sinful state. Another story was of "The Good Samaritan" which was an example of Jesus to all of us--he didn't mind getting his hands in the mud to pull OUT the "object of his affection" being HUMANITY. <P>There are scriptures that help us, too. <P>Gal 6:1-2<BR>1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.<BR>2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.<BR>(KJV)<P>I must assume that someone "went to him in love" and broached the subject, expressing concern for HIS eternal well-being, or he'd likely not have resigned. <BR> <BR>1 Tim 5:19-22<BR>19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.<BR>20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.<BR>21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.<BR>22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.<BR>(KJV)<P>Here's an IMPORTANT POINT, IF your friend repentantly ADMITTED his sin and needing help with it, this is NOT AN ACCUSATION. This scripture says, "but before TWO OR THREE witnesses"--NOT THE WHOLE CHURCH. The idea is "decently and in order" seeking to address the problem of sin with AS FEW PEOPLE INVOLVED AS IS POSSIBLE, initially. Then in verse 20 it says, "Them that SIN rebuke before all that others may fear". "SIN" is a PRESENT-TENSE WORD meaning that if the elder/leader is CONTENT TO REMAIN SINNING, we MUST THEN alert others--but STILL out of motivation of LOVE and CONCERN for the one in sin. God doesn't broadcast all of OUR sins we've repented of and neither does He expect US to "broadcast" a sin that's REPENTED OF. But that is the key--if it's ACKNOWLEDGED AS WRONG with a DESIRE TO LEAVE IT BEHIND!<P><BR>James 5:16-20<BR>16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.<BR>17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.<BR>18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.<BR>19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;<BR>20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.<BR>(KJV)<P>This train of thought SHOWS that we should be SAFE TO "confess our faults [SINS] to one another" (again, with a desire to be HELPED to LEAVE IT BEHIND), and the FIRST RESPONSE of our "family in the LORD" should be to PRAY for the one who has "confessed"--not preach at them, condemn them or go and gossip about it. When we're born-again, our own heart KNOWS BETTER than to do such as committing adultery. If your friend is born-again, I can ASSURE YOU that he IS dealing with conviction of "KNOWING BETTER" whether he admits it or not.<P>HOWEVER, if he responds in a stiff-necked fashion, and defends "the sin" we must then follow scriptural guidelines, and THIS is even the LAST RESORT--NOT THE FIRST RESPONSE. <P>1 Cor 5:1-7<BR>1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.<BR>2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.<BR>3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,<BR>4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,<BR>5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.<BR>6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?<BR>7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:<BR>(KJV)<P>Paul was fussing at the church for CONSCIOUSLY OVERLOOKING destructive SIN in their midst. Notice that he even said, "ye are puffed up (thinking you can ignore it as unimportant), and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. (The MOURNING was that their DEAR BROTHER was going to have to NOW be SEPARATED OFF from them--like a family member being ostracized due to such self-destructive actions that not ONLY harm him but others who might use it to justify themselves in wrong-doing.) <P>I have to emphasize, again, that "following the law of Christ" is the NEW commandment that he gave us--that we owe no man ANYTHING but LOVE!!! This is a "debt" that is never "paid in full". We are to CONTINUE to "love" people around even while NOT loving SIN in their lives because of WHAT IT COSTS THEM and can even cost US in having to disfellowship them...STILL IN HOPES THAT THEY WILL "COME TO THEMSELVES" and be restored. A desire for RESTORATION should be the HEART-BEAT of ANY and ALL THINGS EXPRESSED to the man who was a respected elder in the church!!! EVEN disfellowship (should it come to that) is motivated of LOVE FOR HISSSS ultimate well-being. <P>Should it come to that we STILL aren't to "wash our hands of our LOVE for him". Paul addressed this SAME SITUATION of the man with his father's wife a year later stating;<P>2 Cor 2:4-8<BR>4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you (intestingly, Paul was IN TEARS as he'd addressed how they needed to deal with the man who was living with his father's wife in sin).<BR>5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.<BR>6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many (NOTE: The punishment was "inflicted of many" which tells us that SOME did not stand in agreement with the church leadership. This is NOT an UNCOMMON response among "carnal" Christians. They tend to want to totally IGNORE or "make light" of the sin which is not REALLY LOVE for the one that it's DESTROYING.)<BR>7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to FORGIVE him, and COMFORT him, lest perhaps such a one should be SWALLOWED UP up with OVERMUCH SORROW. (OBVIOUSLY, we can't FORGIVE someone who's barking out that they've done know wrong. This man had apparently come to a point of ACKNOWLEDGING HIS SIN AS WRONG as was demonstrated by his GRIEVING about it. That's a KEY to REPENTANCE--GRIEVING how our own wrong actions have HURT others.) <BR>8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would CONFIRM YOUR LOVE toward him.<BR>(KJV)<P>Paul told them, after having been made aware that the man who'd been "overtaken in a fault/sin" was sorrowful. Paul exhorted them to EXPRESS THEIR FORGIVENESS toward him because it helps us to FORGIVE OURSELVES when we see those who LOVE US, know the WORST ABOUT US and STILL SEE US AS VALUABLE!!! THAT is the heart of GOD in demonstration. <P>I pray that your church leadership would have wisdom to express LOVE for this man above all else. Because even if he acts "stiff-necked" initially, GOD'S love expressed through others will "come back to him" and give him HOPE if and when he's ready to "be done with the sin". <P>I apologize for the length of this post. But you obviously struck a chord in me on this subject. In the situation of my affair, I confessed it to our church leadership as well as to our ordaining body. I then located and got myself and my husband into marriage counseling for the next 17 months. WE paid for it, personally--not the church. We were advised to NOT stand before the entire church because of several key things; #1 I was PROFOUNDLY sorrowful and admitted my wrong actions in the matter (God is our example in that He does NOT broadcast a sin we ADMIT is wrong and want to leave behind), #2 It will stumble "spiritual babes". Whether we like it or not, there ARE "spiritual babes" in the church who think PEOPLE represent God 24 hours a day 7 days a week with NO humanity/issues of sin to deal with. They can "lose hope for their OWN future" OR use it as an EXCUSE to "backslide" themselves. #3 I was FULLY making myself accountable to give progress reports to those in leadership AND our ordaining body, as a measure against future sin of that nature. (ALSO, those I made myself accountable to were/are "spiritually MATURE". In other words, they weren't SHOCKED as much as they were concerned with "how can WE HELP YOU to deal with this? We are COMMITTED TO YOU IN THE LOVE OF THE LORD to STAND BY YOU as LONG AS YOU RESPOND in a SCRIPTURAL, REPENTANT manner as we'd want YOU to do for US if the situation were reversed." They did not EQUATE ME to my past SIN but saw ME as WORTH THE BLOOD OF JESUS to RESTORE over a period of time back into my role of our local church. (THANK GOD that HE does not equate our WORTH to our OWN PAST SINS!!!) <P>I stepped down from all "platform" duties for a year, longer in some areas. I no longer made any announcements, I no longer stood on the platform leading worship, I did absolutely NO counseling (and never will AGAIN without my husband). I was still at every service, sitting on the front row, too. If we are to seek "reconciliation" of sinners into the body of Christ, we are ALSO to seek "reconciliation"/RESTORATION of brothers and sisters in the Lord who do wrongly--AS MUCH AS IS POSSIBLE. It won't ALWAYS work out but that should be our goal. <P>One last thought. The majority who we told were VERY supportive, expressing the love of Christ and a willingness to undergird us with their prayers during my "restoration process". One couple (our youth minister and his wife) responded HORRIBLY. They responded antagonistically when we went to their home for me to "confess my wrong" to them and apologize. They sat with their arms folded and wanted to know "details". When we left and I hugged them, they acted as though I had "dirt" on me that would get on them and barely, loosely, distantly returned the hug. They left the church. In retrospect, I realized that it was their OWN UNRESOLVED ATTITUDES and ISSUES SURROUNDING adultery that gave them such trouble in their response toward us. This young lady was on a death-bed in a hospital 12 years earlier when my husband went in and met her, laid hands on her to pray for her and she was GLORIOUSLY HEALED OF CANCER. But they utterly washed their hands of us with the adultery. Her parents had both been adulterous numerous times while she was growing up. It seems that she's as yet not RESOLVED her OWN conflicting emotions on that matter, based on her hostile, religious, judgemental response toward us. The book, "TORN ASUNDER" by Dave Carder clearly points out that, "ANYONE who's EVER BEEN TOUCHED BY ADULTERY--whether it's an adult who was betrayed, or a child affected by it or an adult relative that is touched by it--MUST PROPERLY PROCESS THE ADULTERY in order to HEAL FROM IT and not see it REPEATED eventually in their OWN LIFE." That means they must acknowledge it, grieve it and then let go of it, forgiving whoever was involved. He also points out that having ANY UNRESOLVED ISSUES surrounding adultery will cause some folks response to be more HARMFUL to the recovery process than HELPFUL. <P>You will see a mix of supportive responses and some very judgemental responses. That couple 20 months after the fact (I ran into the wife a few weeks back) still act as though "it might get on them" or somehow contaminate them. They seem to be more consumed with "how THEY will look" than concerned for OUR families' recovery from the trauma. They didn't need to agree with us but it would have been worth it's "weight in GOLD" had they simply phoned us once every month or two and left a message on our machine that they "loved us and were praying good things for us."! Others have done this and it's VALUE CANNOT BE PUT INTO WORDSSSSSSSSS!!! Not ONLY has my family been "saved" by the loving support of others in our recovery, but an entire CHURCH FULL OF FAMILIES has been "saved" as support has continually been demonstrated to my husband and myself on this hard journey by the handful of families who "know"!!!<P>Robin <P><BR>

s.eagle,<P>At this stage of matters I would recommend that you keep this brother in your prayers constantly. Be praying that the Holy Spirit would convict him of his wrong and remind him that God loves him still. Then I would send him a note just telling him that you are praying for him and his family. Tell him that are still his friend and that if he needs a listening ear you are available anytime day or night to "listen".<P>That is where I would start. <P>Mud<P><BR>

Robin,<P>Thank you so much for your reply. It helped me in my marriage (or the end of a marriage) to my betraying husband but also in other areas in my life. I had been needing a dose of spiritual wisdom about not being happy with other's behavior. I'd already wanted to send this thank you before I got to the end of the messsae about how if infidelity that touched you was not processed you were in danger of it happening in your own life. I think that is my husband. He was so offended by his father's affair leading to his parents' divorce (around 20 years ago) but he is now trapped in the same awful spot. His brothr had already folowed suit. Your post gave me insight and some compassion for my H after I felt none most of the time. Please pray for us and I wil also pray for you and your family's cotinued recovery. <BR>I also thank God that your church leadership (with that one exception) was so wonderful in handling this for you and your husband. I'll slos pray for that couple who could not deal with this.<P>Callie<P><BR>

Thank-you, Callie, for your kind words. I appreciate that, very much! I'm sorry, too, about the loss of your marriage. I'll stop and say a prayer for you. And here's a HUG, too.<P>I was just checking back on this thread to see any follow-ups by the person who started this thread. No updates, yet. Oh, well. <P>Robin<BR>