There was one other thing my H said in our conversation yesterday that I had to ALMOST defend. After explaining Plan A and Plan B to him, he said "Oh, I get it ... they're procedures you followed". The way he said it was like it was something scientific or not driven by love. At least that's what I was hearing.<P>I quickly told him that they were plans that I was following, and they are driven by my love for him and my desire to be a better wife. I didn't know what else to say. He really sounded suspicious, like I was manipulating or using him in a guiene pig experiment.<P>Comments?<P>Jo <P>------------------<BR>Josie_Res@Hotmail.com<P>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"

Jo-<P>I am afraid you are headed for a downward spiral with this. You cannot explain these things to your H while he is still in the midst of the affair. You just have to live them. <P>My H tried everything to keep me from going to plan B - told me I was selfish and mean, told me I was doing the same "conflict avoidance and grudge-holding" that damaged our relationship before the affair, told me what I was doing would hurt the children and even talked about suicide - he did everything except commit to separating from OW, the one thing that I needed. It was excruciating and it kept me from executing a real plan B. I am now in a total messy situation (the suicide stuff finally got to me - although he never did anything, I couldn't just ignore this), my plan b is shot and I hurt more than ever.<P>I am now of the opinion that you really have to be very close to out of love for your spouse before you go to plan B for it to work - especially if you have a history in the marriage of being more of the giver/caretaker. These patterns are so so hard to break. You need support to stick to this - and the last place you will find that support is with your H. He doesn't want you to stop contact. He will manipulate you in any way he can to accomplish this. If you are really ready for this last ditch effort - resist his entreaties with all that you are. Or decide that your lovebank is still healthy enough to endure more plan A.<P>Have you discussed this step with a counselor or Harley?<P>My thoughts are with you Jo. I know how difficult this is.<P>starpony

Here you go, Jo:<P>Your husband is exactly right, they ARE procedures. In fact, the whole MarriageBuilder's system is behavioral based methodology.<P>Love is a process. It's not magic, it's not chemistry (well, it IS brain chemistry), it's not fate. In fact, creating love can be pretty much a "scientific" process, if you're good at it and have learned the methodology. But there's nothing wrong with having this "LOVE", because it still feels just as wonderful. And you can create it (and recreate it) by knowing the processes you need to follow.<P>The alternative is the "dumb luck" naive love that everyone seems to think is good, because it's so "spontaneous" and so "effortless". But that love usually doesn't last unless the couple "learns the procedure" to modify their behaviors to keep their love alive, as they grow as individuals and as a couple.<P>And if he doesn't like that explanation, give him a shock on the electric collar...

Jo,<P>Welcome to the "I don't wanna" club. My H is convinced that anything "forced" (read: trying at anything) makes it unreal and unnatural. Which is why he behaves like such a selfish a** whenever he wants. He believes in unconditional love - but without my having any boundaries. He believes that if I had just "loved" him, we would be okay. Guess what? I always loved him. I never stopped loving him. But I just got tired of being hurt.<P>If your H does not want to try, Jo, there is nothing you can do. Remember, his mind is clouded right now. He's just had this seemingly "wonderful" relationship with another women where everything was effortless, so he's bound to think that your marriage should be equally as effortless. Don't give up trying. And please - consider Plan B.<P>belld

procedures...plans<P>po TA toe...pah TAH toe<P>It doesn't make any difference. He is, of course, discomfitted by you continuing Plan A on him. It makes him feel a bit guilty that he doesn't deserve your kind, loving behavior. So, I'd say you are doing fine!<BR>

Jo - <P>I will have to agree with a lot of what is being said. Your H is still in the clouds and will not listen to reason. It's incredibly frustrating when everyone else around him can see what's happening. In my situation I never told my H what I was doing. I have not told him about the Harley principles either. In time, I will. Right now I doubt he will listen. His head needs to be with me and not with the OW. It may be too late to do the same since your H already knows. However, I would consider Plan Aing without him knowing or the two of you discussing what it is you are trying to do (the plan A/plan B stuff). He needs to see and feel the love you have for him. You need to be the safe place for him. Have you shown him this on a consistent basis? If not, try. <P><P>------------------<BR>Molli<P>Find your strength within!

Don't sweat the small stuff. It doesn't matter what he thinks of it. It will work just the same.

Ugh. That's precisely why I never told my H that such Plans exist. He would have decided it was phony manipulation. He knew I was reading relationship books and sometimes I owuld copy pages and highlight things for him. Who knows if he ever read them or not. Telling him there was a "plan" would not have beena good idea in my case.

Resilient,<BR>You aren't being manipulative or using with Plan A/B, you are chosing and changing your behavior. In any relationship, when one person changes, the other must also change in some way. Your H changed by becoming a WS. You then changed by chosing MB Plan A behavior. You could have chosen to drink too much, see OM, shave your head and tear your clothes and sleep in the street. Would he call those behavior manipulative of him?<P>He sidetracked you with an accusation, hmmm, couldn't THAT be manipulating? Pay no attention, choose your way.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hey Daisy Jo,<P> How are you enjoying our weather? <P> After my W moved out to see BoyToy,I tried talking to her on the phone.I told her I was reading books,and tried to explain what she was going through,and how we could work things out.It didn't matter.She told me I could read all the books I wanted,it wouldn't make any difference.<P> Wasn't much later,I went to Plan B,but I never explain what that was.But then again,Plan B was for me,not for her benefit.<P> I guess you could call it a procedures or role-playing,but it's the theory behind it that counts.Maybe you are telling your H too much in the way of what you're trying to do.After my W's comment about the books,I just shut up about it,and applied the theories.Although I applied Plan B until the cows came home,it didn't do any good.<P> Have great week.It's supposed to be nice here all week. <P> ~~Murph/BeachBum