Oh cerebral me...<P>I rarely get a chance to post a question or thought of my own...<BR>...but here it goes anyway... <P>Most of you know that I advocate Dr. Harley's principles with a great deal of fidelity especially in the application of Plan A and Plan B...<BR>...whether they be procedures or processes or otherwise...<BR>...and it might seem strange that as I continue my long distance Plan A, I now propose a discussion of Plan B.<P>Yes... this should be on the Plan A/Plan B forum...<BR>...but there are few responses there... so I continue here...<P>The thrust of the question/thought is:<BR><B>Many who have not yet made it to <I>RECOVERY</I> have wondered... "When do I quit?"...</B><BR>With this in mind... I asked myself...<BR>"since we consider Plan B as a final step... and we deliberately leave off a time limit in the Plan B letter... <B>when does Plan B really end</B>?...and <B>how is it to end</B>?"<P>My thoughts...<BR>...take them as just mine...<BR>...in humbleness... I force nothing on anyone... <P>The issue of a truly abusive situation...<BR>...one that "breaks" the relationship... it is then, unquestionably, over...<BR>...but when one can apply Plan A and perhaps Plan B... I explore these further.<P>Plan A ends usually by entering into the perils of what many expect to be the joyfulness of <B><I>recovery</I></B>...<BR>...All too often we hear the stories of how it would have been better to not enter into this stage at all<BR>...tribulations continue<BR>...change by the spouse not accepting Plan A efforts is slow<BR>...learning the 4 rules of a successful marriage never takes place at the pace we'd like<BR>...struggles in working out a personal POJA hampers all efforts<BR>...growing pains are hard<BR>...triggers remain<BR>...and even here... success isn't guaranteed...<BR>...but through all its difficulties<BR>...<B><I>recovery</I> is the best goal to strive for</B><BR>...and its continuation is one of a <I>healthier</I> marriage.<P>Plan A can also end...<BR>...by starting Plan B...<P><B>...but what about the ending of Plan B?...</B><BR>(I can't rule out Plan A ending this way too...<BR>...for those who continue in Plan A and... never quite make it to Plan B... {Chris... you and I are included here and... I did read your post the other day... what timing for your <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004256.html" TARGET=_blank>"update"</A>})<P>So what about the end of Plan B?...<P>Obviously... if one of the goals of Plan B (forcing our S's ENs to be met by the OP) reaches its desired result... the WS will return...<BR>...and the normal push toward <B><I>recovery</I></B> starts...<P>But for some in Plan B (and a few in Plan A)... this travel into recovery does <B>not</B> occur. <BR>We are told... and I plug this as much as anyone... (<B>K</B> included)... <BR>...we are to reach a state of ("near Nirvana") where we can move on...<P>...but there comes a point (or several points) along this roller coaster ride... a conflicting scenario...<P>Plan B (in the standard letter) says... "we are saving what little love (in our Love Banks) we have for our spouses"...<BR>...but then... in time... we're expected to <B>...move on...</B><P>...clearly to do this... that now infamous "no contact"... (or extended long distance Plan A)... itself leads to a slow drain of that precious love... and periodically we reach anxiety points when we sense the loss... (like a buoy riding on top of small waves in an ocean searching for the sight of the shoreline) ...the shoreline of "the state of lost love"... and the start of a new journey.<P>How do we know that we've reached that shore line?...<BR>Are the waves crashing on our backs the sign?....<BR>Is it the rough shells our feet walk upon among those signs?...<BR>Is it the water running off of our backs?...<BR>Might all of these be just temporary reprieves before we really reach that shore line?<BR>Once we reach the dry land... are we rejoining the "tree dwellers"?... <BR>...or the "wind walkers"?...<BR>...(see my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003302.html" TARGET=_blank>Inspire (13)</A>)<BR>Signs are often misleading...<BR>Listening with the "inner" <B>EAR</B>... found only in our <I>h</I><B>EAR</B><I>t</I>...<BR>...will direct us to this truth.<P>All through Plan B (and Plan A as well) we <B><I>all</I></B> say... <BR>....this is a time of growth...<BR>....it gives you time to better learn the <B>skills</B> of marital success...<BR>....it let's you re-find your direction<BR>...... thrown off stride by your unrepentant and/or unforgiving spouse...<P>But even though we can never reach the fullness of these skills alone<BR>...and work at the skills without human interaction (maybe a partner)....<BR>...through which we practice and hone those skills...<BR>...is there merit to the learning of these skills?<P>Those marital skills...<BR>...after all...<BR>...are skills of <B>all</B> human relationships...<P><B>The rule of protection</B>... after all... is to protect anyone from our inevitable failings<BR><B>The rule of care</B>... after all... is to care for... to love our neighbor as ourselves... even our enemies<BR><B>The rule of honesty</B>... after all... is a desire to have honesty shown us... by everyone... to <I>not</I> bear false witness<BR><B>The rule of time</B>... after all... is to give of ourselves the most valuable of all human resources...<BR>...since in the end... that is what we really lose out on...<BR>...see my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003682.html" TARGET=_blank>Inspire (35)</A><BR>...are these "rules" procedures?... or processes?...<BR>...to that... all I can say is... does it matter?!<P>So back to... "when/how does Plan B end?"...<P>There comes a time.... sometimes when you're close enough to the shoreline...<BR>...and you're enlightened... in the reality <B><I>that your spouse has left</I></B>...<BR>...left in a way deeper than not being physically close...<BR>...left in a way deeper than losing their own faith/mind/spirit...<BR>...left in a way deeper than just a filing or completing of a divorce.<P>A divorce is not the end of Plan B.<BR>The signed document isn't a testimony... just a decree of entering a transition!<P>The end comes in knowing... both...<BR>1. You have learned <B><I>all</I></B> of the 4 rules of "human" relationships<BR>...and...<BR>2. You have an "acceptance"... of a new journey in your life.<P>Both must happen... not just one... or the other.<P>We, most likely, know if we learned those rules...<BR>...like everything we learn in life... it is made better only by practice...<BR>...our learning will be imperfect... and that is OK...<BR>...as long as we can persevere...<BR>...and it is under our control!<BR>...failure leads us to hurtful(rebound) relationships<BR>...success leads us to wisdom... and healthy relationships<P>But... that "acceptance"... it is the more difficult and less absolute aspect...<BR>...this comes to us as a presence of mind...<BR>...it is not something to be worked at...<BR>...it just happens...<BR>...whether we are aided by waves crashing, our feet on the shells, or water off our backs...<BR>...when we can accept this presence of mind<BR>...... to close out what we've lost...<BR>...we will then begin a renewal!...<BR>...the suffering of the past can then be fully put behind you.<P>What is decided as a new journey is up to us...<BR>...it could be a new relationship leading to marriage<BR>...it could be as a life as a single<BR>both are valid vocations... <BR>...aided mostly by how we have learned in "building good relationships"...<P>In my mind...<BR>...when you know your on that new journey...<BR>...that is... when the Plan B ends.<P>I pray for all to heal... <P> <P>Jim

Wow, Jim...great thoughts!<P>I wondered and wondered how or if I would know for sure that my family was complete.<P>As I packed away the baby cloths and toys after #1, I cried and told myself they would be upacked again.<P>As I repeated this after #2, I cried again and comforted at most probably they would be unpacked again.<P>After #3, I packed the clothes up without crying, but warm memories and GAVE most of them away. What I couldn't part with I packed and labeled "For Grandma's House...me being the potential Grandma".<P>I knew and all the contemplating about knowing was really unnecessary. <P>I hope you find that is the case someday.

Hi Jim, I always like to read your posts and wanted to reply because im in my own plan B.<P>I guess I think (in my not always coherent way) that while we talk about plan A for life in any relationship, we can plan B for life as well. <P>I will love my H always. I loved him the day we were married and I love him now...despite my somewhat battered feelings.<P>Even in plan B... I will love him. I actually love him enough to set him free if he is so miserable in the marraige. But I probably needed to distance myself (via plan B) more for me than anything. I just had to get stronger so that I can raise my kids!!<P>I am simply hoping my hurt, battered self esteem improves in plan B. I know the love will always be there. I remember a wonderful marraige even if he can only remember one or two happy moments. ( I know he was happy...I have the photos and videos!!!!!!! all with his warm joyous smile towards me and the kids!!!

I have been in Plan B now for 5 wks, and I'm sure at great relief to my ex. Plan B will end for me when he actually marries. He and OW are engaged, but no date has been set. <P>Our son leaves tomorrow for a 3 yr tour of duty in Spain, so it will be the first time I have seen ex in 6 weeks. I will do the best Plan B possible at the airport, and Jim, I will be following the advice you gave me in another post. Thank you my friend.

Hi NSR -<P>Cerebral you is right!!!! Geez, not something I can concentrate hard about on a dreary Sunday Morning...especially with only the first few sips of java to open these tired eyes!!!! <P>For YOU, I try though!!!! LOL!!!<P>I am a Plan A person (oooh, there's a surprise, eh?).....<P>TO ME - and I want to emphasize that!!-<P>Plan B is ONLY implemented when you have done EVERYTHING in your power to effect any changes you can for a consistant time (to yourself, your communications with the offender, your situation, etc.) for the relationship. After you have done this, your own emotions/thinking should be at a more healthy level - stable!!! <P>It is only at a "stable" level that we can truly know if we are actually LOSING love or if we think we are because we are in pain and/or anger. <P>Plan B is essentially closing someone out of your life.....that means that you will no longer want them in it!!!! EVER!! <P>So when does "ever" end?<P>Yes, you can argue that this is not true because they can become part of it if they meet your criteria to be "let back in" to your life.....but that is not a given, so you must look at it that it could very well be forever!!!! You must be ready and willing to have that be the outcome. <P>Since Plan B includes a letter of love with some "reconnecting " criteria outlined......it does not END until that criteria is met.<P>I am not a person who holds back what I feel.....I try and it doesn't work. You can see it and feel it coming from me no matter how much "armor" I put on.<P>Distance is a different story....if one needs to have less than normal contact to preserve "love" than that is what they should do......but that is NOT Plan B - it is still Plan A!!<P>Maybe it comes down to how much we separate the behaviors from the person - the old "love the sinner, hate the sins" kind of thinking.<P>Perhaps also, us long time - not getting cooperation - MBers should separate our references from implementing/following MB Plan A/B to BEHAVIORS of Plan A/B being our choice for the future. Meaning that we choose to behave the way WE feel comfortable and right about.<P>We cannot confuse that with a PLAN B though......these plans have outlines and that is the reason for their effectiveness. Some situations, like yours Jim and mine, have circumstances that lead astray of the "norm" such as our spouse's upbringing, us not losing love, fast track to divorce, etc.<P>What you concluded is true, I believe - it will just happen the way it will happen.....we are, and have been, on a new journey. I never believed that it is a conscious "decision" to "MOVE ON" for us....it is more of a self journey that moves us on as we go along. It is the destination that is unknown!!!<P>Moving on does not mean "dropping" old......moving on is carrying it with you!!!! Hopefully, in a good way!!!<BR>If it's not good, it will haunt...if it is forcefully "decided" it is rebellious......<P>Another thought (and this is not a factor for me) is Plan B'ing when you have children.......<P>I do not see how that can be done. Not if you want your kids to be mentally healthy and to learn how to communicate effectively in problem situations. I just don't get it........<P>I said that it is not a factor for me, and in the sense of my having children with my H - that is true!!!<P>I do have nieces and a nephew...they are a part of OUR lives....they did not disappear when we fell apart!!!<P>My niece Katie (on my side) asked me if this means that she will never see or talk to her "Uncle WAD" ever again. She just LOVES him....always has......<P>What do you say? "I don't know"!!!<P>What does that teach them? What does that tell their little hearts?<P>I told her that I hoped that she would but that I can't guarantee it. She said, "well, that's not fair! Doesn't he love any of us anymore?" I said that she could write to him if she wanted to.<P>It broke my heart!!!!!<P>I told H about it yesterday.......<P>How do you Plan B that? You can't - you just have to "go with the flow" of it.....setting a good a morality about it as you can.<P>OK, I am done rambling....<P>See, knew I needed more coffee for this, Jim!!!!! LOL!!!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P><BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited July 30, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sheba:<BR><B>Distance is a different story....if one needs to have less than normal contact to preserve "love" than that is what they should do......but that is NOT Plan B - it is still Plan A!! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good Morning Sheba!<P>When I talk with Dr. Harley this week regarding where I'm at (Plan A/B) I will express this thought to him because this may be what I'm feeling as opposed to being in Plan B.<P>I don't YET feel that true "stability" you talked about in your post. I have to admit I still waver from flashes of emotions in anger/pain. It greatly affects my decision making, but I'm getting better, promise.<P>Thank you for posting this right when I needed it. <P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 30, 2000).]

Glad it could help Jo!!!<P>Hey, when you talk with Harley, see if you can get any feedback on how to get a spouse that says they want to work on the marriage to ACTUALLY work on it!!!<P>So many are in this situation and yet the MB tools are not getting introduced because these spouses just want it forgotten and moved on from.......<P>If you can find a place in your session to inject it.....don't want to take any time away from YOU and YOUR H!!!!!<P>HUGS and don't forget to fill us in,<P>Sheba

I guess Plan B would end when;<P>1. You both decide to “try again.”<P>2. You decide to get on with your life & not worry about her. Also, I feel forgiveness is something you need to do for yourself. She wanted out for reason(s), affair, you’re an a$$, she never lived alone, whatever. At some point in time, you’ll have to (oh & I so hate this phrase), “just get over it.”<P>No, you worked through everything you could. You understand what went wrong & you did your best to “fix” you. Hold a grudge against her & be a bitter old man? No way. Let her live her life as she chooses. You need not be a part of it.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Oh yeah. Perhaps ask her for forgiveness for whatever she saw you doing wrong? Something to think about.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Hi NSR -<P>OK - you make us hurt our brains and then you disappear!!!! LOL!!!<P>Where are you and what are your thoughts?<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Ok...<P><B>FaithHopeLove</B>...<BR>...I agree...<BR>...instinctive ...inspired ...that is the time ...not measured in a conventional sense!<P><B>tootrusting</B>...<BR>..."can plan B for life"... very possible<BR>...how about "plan A for life"... as Sheba may be suggesting?<BR>...even that maybe ...possible!<P><B>db713</B>...<BR>"...(Plan B) until he marries OW..."<BR>possibly... what about when they divorce?.. and begs to come back?...<BR>...<P><B>Sheba</B>... ...at the end...<BR>...<P><B>Jo</B>...<BR>Sheba's more than right about "stability"...<BR>...now maybe a followup is how do you know when you're "stable"?...<BR>...<P><B>Chris/Chris</B>...<BR>..."you’ll have to"...“just get over it.”... perhaps?!<BR>..."you’ll just get(or be) over it.”... more likely!<BR>Forgiveness... you! your wife!... always a prerequisite... even for ending a good Plan A!<P><B>Sheba</B>...<BR>...Sorry for the brain ache...<BR>...a few thoughts on your input!...<P>"consistant time" in Plan A ... <B><I>ABSOLUTELY</I></B>!<P>"Plan B is essentially closing someone out of your life.....that means that you will no longer want them in it!!!! EVER!! "...<BR><B>I'd take it you think Plan B CAN go on forever</B>... I'd have to agree!<P>Your "Distance" thought... is 100% on the mark!!!<BR>Bravo for you! Preservation is always a continuation of Plan A!<P>Ah yes... your Plan B AND children...<BR>...this too should be a separate thread...<BR>...the 100% <B>pure</B> Plan B is impossible...<BR>...but...<BR>...what is there to "teach" them...<BR>......moral values beyond the "mechanics" of "no contact"<BR>......this too can be consistant (and ongoing) (and not contradictary to faith)<BR>......and that is where the real work is... and continues... for long running Plan As and Bs!<BR>......that <B>flow</B> IS your faith... <P>Oh boy...<BR>...this is deep...<BR>...if it weren't... <BR>...none of this would be worth us being here...<P>...I'm planning to be here...<BR>...hey... at least a while longer!<P>Sheba...<BR>...how about a <BR>...you're loved too!<P> <P>Jim

Hey Jim: I am so amazed with your insight, and yours too, Sheba.<BR>My response to your response. At this point, I don't think my ex would ask to come back, even if he and OW eventually marry and divorce. I don't think I would want him back, if he actually marries OW-in my mind, that is the final nail in the coffin.<BR>Update: ex did not come to airport to see son off to Spain where he will be for the next 3 yrs with the military. He did take him and my daughter out to an early breakfast, although plane did not leave till late afternoon. Although I have been in Plan B, I was quite surprized he did not come and I really felt he should have been there. These are the things that are draining my love bank. Anymore, its not the major battles, but the little things that add up over time. I'm at the point even now, I would have to think long and hard about reconcilling, and I would have to see major changes. Fog or no fog, I am having a hard time accepting the insensitive things the betrayer does.

OK...Plan A for life. I guess I'm not really very good at these MB pricipals. My plan B is really more of a plan A via kids and plan B (not his friend for my distance and strength).. When the WS is NOT living with, sleeping with??? or at least saying he doens't want a relationship, they just have this coworking bond thing.... <P>I can't get the kids in the middle. He does love them and they do need him (even if he is not emotionally all there)<P>SO I guess it is plan A for life...<P>Do explain to me how you could plan B in the sense of having them entirely out of your life when they want to spend so much time with the kids????<BR>I do have a difficult time explaining all of this to the kids. These type of actions send so many wrong messages.<P>I just keep telling my kids that their dad is not doing this to them on purpose. That he loves them. With guidance from their counselor I told them that some adults get confused regarding what makes them happy. I told them It was important for them to discover what makes them happy and treat others gently in their pursuit.<P>It really brings up tough issues for all of us!!!<BR>

<B>db713</B>...<BR>"...its not the major battles, but the little things..."... absolutely... and the waves that bring you up and down... (if you remember by buoy analogy)...<P>"I am having a hard time accepting the insensitive things the betrayer does'...<BR>...to this I would say what <B>Chris</B> added...<BR>...forgiving/forgiveness even through Plan A and Plan B... is going to help!<P><B>tootrusting</B>...<BR>You've said it...<BR>...you can't have them completely out of your life... when the kids are there!<BR>...whether you call it a Plan A or Plan B... it doesn't matter.<P>You sound like you really are telling your kids the right things...<BR>......"their dad is not doing this to them on purpose"<BR>......"That he loves them"<BR>......"some adults get confused regarding what makes them happy"<P>...the relationship I have with my kids is such that I can bring into my discussions with them a little bit more of moral teaching...<BR>......that the "sin" is still wrong<BR>......that the "separation of sin and sinner" (as <B>Sheba</B> said)... is God's truth<BR>......that their lives can be better... morally through it<BR>......that they don't have to accept societies preaching of "relative morality"<BR>.........and that that is not God's will<P>I teach them with words... and actions...<BR>My Plan A comes through... my never saying their "mom is bad"... just her sin...<BR>Never saying she is the "sin"... that the salnder they hear is the "sin"... the expletives they hear are the "sin"... the hand gestures they see are the "sin"...<BR>...but there "mom" is to be always loved... always forgiven... always to be respected because she is their parent!<P>My 18yo son has the hardest time with it...<BR>...retribution (especially on the OM) is his major focus... <BR>...but I try with him... especially!<P>Morality... faith... belief in values... ARE "tough issues for all of us!!!"<BR>...but when you can stop ducking these issues...<BR>...and bring them out without being self-righteous<BR>...but more with the kind of love God wishes us to express to our "enemies" (at least)<BR>...in time the "tough"-ness can diminish.<P><BR>Love to all...<P> <P>Jim

Hey Jim, <P>Every once in awhile I pop in and look around... and I really couldn't pass you up...<P>I could never do a Plan B. I don't know why... maybe because I'm one of those people who always want to smooth things over, make them right, not go to bed angry... I wouldn't have a clue... I'd want to keep in touch to keep trying to right the wrong...<P>...and I don't think I ever got Plan A down either, at least the not the "do it forever" mentality that needs to be implemented if it is to succeed. I guess I'm just too stubborn.<P>I think what you're saying to your children is commendable. That's the hardest part, I think... to watch your spouse choose the other person and not trash them to your children and anyone else who will listen, and especially when your children are older, like ours... an 18 yr. old has realistic eyes, and knows the score... we need not say anything much... but to turn it around and insist on respect when we have none for them is truly remarkable... at least I think so.<P>Jim, as always, you are a dear man with a heart of gold. <P>