I was wondering if anyone was brave enough to explain how having an affair after being betrayed feels, especially during recovery or a supposed plan A or plan B. I know there are a few of us here who have been there. <P>If you are hesitant, might I suggest using a seperate user name. You'd be doing us "about to's" and "almost did's" a great service. Maybe help us to let the idea go. <P>I've heard others scream their frustration with WS and feelings of loss of self esteem and how badly they'd love to have an A of their own to feel desired/have revenge/give the WS a taste of their own medicine. I've said as much and then the opportunity fell into my lap! I know it was my Giver giving up and my Taker roaring it's ugly head. <BR>I'm coming to terms with what happened.<P>Hoping this may thread may show what such actions may bring--we say "it's wrong" but I'm curious as to exactly what is thought/ is felt/happens when one does follow the old "eye for an eye" rule. <P>How does the WS turned BS feel about it?<P>What did it do to recovery?<P>What How do you feel about yourself after you've had the A?<P>Do you think it was worth it?<P>Did it improve your feelings of self worth/esteem/desirablity?<P>Was this OP a "good" person--someone you thought would be a "better deal" than your spouse?<P>And any other thoughts on the subject or advice would be greatly appreciated.<P>A guy, username "Rooster", I think, once said he was going to have one. Tried to talk him down. Haven't seen him post for months now. Are you still out there, Rooster?<P>Please help those of us who fantasize about it or are given the opportunity and are weakening. It happens to alot of us on the dip side of this rollercoaster ride. Maybe we can save some people from a ton of unnessary pain.<P>Mahalo,<P>Leilana <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 01, 2000).]

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I was wondering when someone would ask this question. And yes I am responding under a different name!<BR>First what I did was not out of "retaliation" since I have no intention of telling my H so I didn't do it to hurt him. Also I don't see myself as now being the WS - you must understand that the moment my H chose to have an affair is the moment he ended the marriage. I have told him that we are not H & W right now, that we have no marriage, we are roommates and he has to work on rebuilding - that the foundation is still there but the marriage in its true form isn't. Since I feel this way, I don't see what I did as an 'affair' simply because I am not married at the moment.<BR>The man I was with is someone who has been a friend for about 3 years now - a younger man who has asked me on several occasions would I consider having an affair with him - the answer was always no just as it was to the countless other men. I never faltered & would never even consider doing something like that. I was happily married & in love with my H. When I discovere my H's affair, I saw no reason to keep saying no to this OM.<BR>What I did I didn't do out of revenge, but for me. Some may not like to hear this but it actually helped me - not on a self-esteem level but somehow it made me stronger & made me realize that should my H choose to walk out on our marriage, then I would be able to handle it. I never thought this was possible - that I am capable of surviving the end of what was once a wonderful marriage. My life was turned upside down on dday. This strength that it gave me did make it worthwhile for me.<BR>I was never looking for a replacement for H. I do not love this OM, I do not fantasize about a life together - he simply is not my 'soulmate' but I never pretended that he was. I am not emotionally tied to this person & that has also helped a lot. Had I been emotionally involved, I think it would have made matters worse for me - especially given the fact that it would not last & I would be devastated by the end of that as well.<BR>He's actually the first person I told about my H's A and the end of my marriage. For a while he was the only person I could speak to & still speak to him about it. We have a clear understanding as to what our 'relationship' is - we're there for each sometimes & that's it, we hang out sometimes & have fun & no we don't always end up in a motel room somewhere. <BR>I can't say this is something that will work for you or anyone else for that matter. All I know is that it worked/works for me as I wait for my H to decide if he wants to spend the rest of his life with me or not. I'm in limbo at the moment & being with this OM gives me some kind of power over my life. Being with him doesn't influence me when it comes to my marriage - I have no desire to be with this OM & that is helpful. Had I been stupid enough to fall in love with him & have him waiting in the wings (like my H has his OW waiting in the wings) then it would influence me in a negative way & I would not work on my marriage that much.<BR>Maybe not the response everyone wants to hear but there it is - the truth according to me & me alone -

But, Sophia, if you have no intention of telling your H, doesn't this break the Rule of Honesty? Your marriage is not over until the divorce is finalized. Did the A help your self-esteem or your self image. I would imagine that I my self esteem would be improved by knowing that someone was attracted to me, but my self image that states that I am a good person, would suffer by knowing that I had an A. If you can call it an A, then you must at some level recognize that you are still married.<P>How will you ever be able to rebuild if you can't be faithful and honest with your S. I, too, would love to have an A just to see what it feels like to be with someone who loves me. I know I won't do it. I mean if someone really loved me, they wouldn't want me to cheat on my H no matter what pain he has caused me.<P>As far as improving my self esteem. There are better ways to do that than meaningless sex with someone.<P>Sorry, Sophia. It may have helped you now, but I don't know if you will feel the same way in the long run. If you H turns around and comes back to you, how are you going to feel then about betraying him?<P>Sorry, Leilane, for not answering your post. As much as I would be flattered by a proposition, I know that I would never go through with it, so I'm not a BS turned WS, but maybe I've given you some questions to ponder.

Interesting, Sophia<P>It is a sense of power, isn't it? Now you have your own dirty little secret. Your h thinks you are the strong one, trying to help him out of the cesspool.<P>But you can't yet answer all of Leilana's question about how the WS feels to be betrayed. Might you be throwing away all chances of recovery by continuing this EA?<P>Not judging, just curious. I too have felt I had every right to have an affair myself, but haven't done it because I want my marriage!

Lapeine - I did put the word affair in quotes - I dont see it as being one, I just don't know how else to refer to it. And no I don't feel I'm a bad person nor do I feel guilty about it. I did put an end to it at one time because my H said he was willing to work on the marriage. This was all I had to hear. Had I continued, then I would have felt guilty. But then H did a 180 & decided not to work on our marriage. So I started it back up again.<BR>It's not meaningless sex nor is it 'having someone love me' since it simply isn't that kind of 'relationship'. I'm not sure how to explain it exactly but it somehow gives me the courage to go on should my H walk out. For so long I guess I defined myself with H, my entire future has been intertwined with his & then I was faced with what I thought at the time to be no future & of course I questioned the past - was my marriage a sham etc?? What I discovered is that I have ME & I never thought in those terms before. It's helped me to know that I can survive.<BR>Like I said, it's not the answer for everyone. I just don't have any regrets. And if my H does decide to get back on track, well I won't feel guilty then either - it was not a betrayal on my part - I don't need a piece of paper announcing a divorce - as it stands now, I am not married.<BR>schizzo - of course I want my marriage to work. When my H says he's working on the marriage then no EA is going on. It's when decides to abandon the whole thing that I think well I'm alone again so why not. It's on again, off again EA depending on where my H is at with OW. All I need from H is to committ to working on the marriage. Only when he does this can I be a loving, faithful wife. With no committment, then I'm nothing to him.

Boy do I fit this very well. I was the WS and my H decided to have a 'revenge affair'. His reasoning behind this was that he wanted to do something that he saw as all his fault. He still does not completely understand how miserable I was while he was away for a year, and how disappointed I was by him thinking "V is strong, she has her family, she'll be fine without me". How each time I needed him, he was never there. I felt abandoned by him and the 1st guy that listened to me, engaged in good conversation, (basically met all of my ENs) became the OM. I don't think he'll ever truly understand how his attitude enabled the situation. I don't blame him, but the conditions became just right for it to happen. So, he embarked on a PA to be the cause of pain for once in his eyes.<P>How did it feel? - If it weren't for having this board before d-day, I'd be locked away in jail. I'm sure I would have physically harmed them both in my rage. But, really all I could do was sit and say - I knew he'd do it. Then I felt guilty again for having my own PA, because if I hadn't this wouldn't have happened.<P>Recovery - Very tough. I hate the rollercoaster of feelings. I'm having to deal with my guilt, anger, and depression all over again. My H told me the other day that it still didn't accomplish anything, because I'm blaming myself. He doesn't see how I can do that. But I know that if I had talked to him after d-day of my PA and cried in his arms instead of while he slept, he wouldn't have done this.<P>My H thought that the OW was the better deal, mainly because she had a child (we have no kids yet) and that she was alot like me except she tried to demoralize him on several occasions. Stuff I just don't do. <P>All I know is that this revenge crap doesn't help anyone. It only makes things worse because now you have two people dealing with another set of issues and feelings. I feel like it has really set us back in so many ways. He trusts me now, but I don't trust him. For me it has really hindered me in so many ways. <P>Vee <P>

Sophia,<P>I so appreciate your honesty and the fact that you were the first to "brave the waters" so to speak. <P>But I honestly didn't think anyone would be repremanded for their response to a (albeit emotionally loaded) question I put out and I'm sorry it happended. You did qualify that this was your opinion and yours alone.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sophia:<BR><B><BR>When I discovered my H's affair, I saw no reason to keep saying no to this OM.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's why I started this thread. Alot of us feel <I>justified</I> to have "an affair" whether we actually do or not. I'm hoping that people who read these posts can feel good about their continued decision to "not".<BR>Or if they already have, to see what they are up against and can prepare.<P>You say it wasn't for revenge. <P>It helped make you stronger (or gave you power over your H according to Schizzo.)<P>You don't feel it will adversely affect your recovery with your H, should that happen.<P>You feel "good" about this situation.<P>May I (respectfully!) ask if you've heard of Dr. Harley's "Giver and Taker" theories?<BR>It sounds like you've given so much that you finally decided to "do something for you". To start "taking", in effect. <P>It also sounds like you're saying recovery would be "nice" but it's not a priority at all costs--and only if your H does ALOT of giving because he's been the Taker for so long. Did I get that right?<P>Is it possible for a Taker to work at recovery? Maybe that's why having an "emotional and/or physical relationship after d-day with a non-spouse" (see, I didn't call it an A!) may not be such a good idea. <P>Maybe it takes away your drive to work your hardest at recovery. <P>OOh, here's a question (all my wheels are spinning)--Sophia, what EN's of yours do you think this OM is meeting? And if he's meeting an EN, why WOULD you need your H? <P>And for those of us who have emotional ties w/ or w/o physical ones to an OP, does that mean we are "Giving" to someone else so we no longer have anything to "give" to our WS or to our recovery or Plan A?<P>Sorry, Sophia, I think I'm talking to myself now! <P>Thanks for the responses, Hon. You got me thinking new thoughts. <P>Lapeine:<P>Felt the vehemence in your response. Know it's hard to stay strong in the face of temptation so you want to "cast out all demons" when you see them. Been there, done that, Hon. <P>But people keep posting threads like "Help, I'm in recovery but attracted to another", etc. We need to see what happens on the "other side". Let's not stifle that revelation with judgements or trying to correct their view on it. We need this information too much.<P>I do commend you on your strong conviction of not having an A. But I felt the same way--in a really great recovery. Love my H, he loves me but still working on some kinks. Then one day some guy tells me he's in love with me, I'm what he's been looking for all his life and how he'll never love another--and whew! I had no idea how powerful a met EN could be!! I came "this" close! Couldn't see any negatives--just wanted to do something "for me" for a change (and for this guy!). Managed to walk away but still reeling from the experience. Next time I want to be stronger! <P>Feel good about your convictions, L--do the things that keep you strong/build your self esteem.<P>Would you please share your list with us, L. <P>I think it belongs here. And I need more ideas <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 02, 2000).]

Dear Leilana,<BR> I hopped over here at your invitation in your fabulous response to my "shattered self esteem" post. What you and others have said is very intriguing to me.<BR> I have wondered what it would be like to be with someone other than my H, not so much for "revenge" (or maybe it is) but just to feel what he felt during his affairs. To be able to freely be attracted to someone without all this pain....to be able to express desire for someone without crying inside over pain of betrayal....to feel wanted and desired without all these other horrible feelings attached. To have someone touch me and want me without me feeling badly thinking "Am I really good enough....is he thinking of someone else....<BR> I have no options to play this fantasy out.<BR>No one is knocking at my door. And I believe I wouldnt act on it if I could.......and that belief comes from knowing how much pain this has caused me. Ive prided myself all my life on having sound morals and principles regarding marriage and family. I thought my<BR> H shared those with me. I was fooled.<BR>He thought I would always meet his needs....He was fooled too. <BR> He said in our therapy last night that he didnt marry me to have affairs....he married me because he beleived I could give him everything he needed in this life. I didnt. <BR> I will punish myself for that for a long time. I think if I had an affair....it would just be one more thing I would punish myself for and I dont think I could handle it. As it is I wonder if I can handle my life now.<BR> Sorry I got off track.......<BR>I fully understand how one can have or want to have a "retaliation affair". It very well might feel wonderful in some ways, and we all feel so horrible that "a little wonderful" would be nice. I guess I pray I wont ever have the opportunity to test it out because as we all have learned so well...."you never really know until youve been there".<BR>Warmest thoughts.....Magenta<BR>

Sophia, for me that piece of paper saying that my H and I are married is the only thing that keeps me going sometimes. I can't pick and choose when I want to feel married or act married. That paper says I am and until there is a piece of paper saying I'm not married, I have to act like I am.<P>I don't really understand how you can have an on again/off again EA. If your H returned and said he wanted to work on the marriage, could you work on it wholeheartedly while this OM lingers in the background?<P>I really am not trying to criticize, but it seems like you are creating a fog for yourself, and that scares me because eventually, people come out of the fog. You said that this shows you can survive without your H, but really the question should be can you survive on your own without any man? Are you keeping this EA in the wings because you are afraid to end up alone?<P>It also concerns me that you are not being open and honest with your H. If you are not open and honest with him, how can you expect him to be open and honest with you?<P>I'm concerned about you. I'm concerned that you are rationalizing your actions so they are right. I'm concerned that will eventually catch up with you. I think this is what my H's OW did with him. Her H and she were divocing and she didn't want to be alone. I do hope that your OM is single. I know you don't want to bring pain to another relationship.

Lapeine,<P>Please read the post located two above your last. I started out responding to Sophia but near the bottom I addressed something to you. I should have done so seperately. I asked you to share your "list". <P>Perhaps instead of rings, we should have tatooed our marriage certificates on our bodies.

Another thing, <P>I know I said "retalliation affairs" in my topic heading. <P>But I meant <B>any</B> A that the betrayed spouse has after learning their spouse had an A. <P>Revenge/to "build" self esteem/"empowerment"/giving up on the WS/getting an EN met....it doesn't matter whatever your personal reason is.<P>For me I think I had an EN met (that I didn't know I was starving for) and I ALMOST had an A to show my enormous gratitude to this guy! Plus the fact that he was lonely and I felt sorry for him...and my everloving H has TWO women fighting for his love. <P> Good grief--it was probably a combination of all the reasons I listed above!

Leilana - I want recovery - I'm just not going to get anywhere each time H decides no he won't work on marriage. All he has to do is commit to it & I'm there. I'm growing tired of his 180s & hate this roller coaster. Its the broken promises & 180s that makes me work less & less. Each time H does this to me, I give less back. If he continues, I won't have anything left to give. I'm not so sure what EN the OM fills - all I know is he's someone who hasn't hurt me & can never hurt me since I'm not in love with him. It's not this OM really offers me anything except maybe independence & knowing that I can have a life afterwards should the worst happen - not a life with OM but a life filled with choices that I may have to make one. I've seriously thought about things like what part of the city "I" want to live in as opposed to "us", what car to buy, a # of things. The idea of being without my H scared me. Now I realize that should he decide once again that it's over, then I can be independent in every way. You need to understand that I "never" felt this way before. But I'm coming into my own. Without him, am I half a person - I'm learning that no, I am one. Believing that I'm half a person would give me low self-esteem.<BR>Lapeine: when the marriage is "back on" I don't have the OM waiting in the wings. In fact even when the marriage is "back off" I don't have him waiting in the wings. I don't dream of a future with him nor do I want one. As I said above, it's learning that I may one day have choices & it offers me independence & yes freedom as well - something I've never had my whole adult life. Funny thing is it's something my H wants - freedom. I never really thought about it but if I end up on my own then it's kind of nice to know that for the first time I have choices in my life. Each person has to do what's right by them - I can't be the loving, faithful wife while he's in his "the marriage is over" state & out with OW. It's just not possible for me to do - I take my cues from him. <BR>

Sophia,<P>I think we can all see where this is heading. H isn't going to work on the marriage if he's spinning around doing 180's all the time (sitting on the fence).<P>You're down to your last love unit for him in you love bank--maybe even less. You aren't going to be making any huge overtures now either. You're depleted.<P>There won't be any recovery with your H if no one is stepping up to the plate.<P>You would have to be the one. I think it may be too late. <P>When you still feel love for your spouse but you're love units are getting depleted, that's when us MB people say you now have to go into Plan B mode--Before you literally don't give a rat's okole about your H and recovery anymore. <P>Ok, that being said, just what do you think would happen if you did tell your H about your being with another man? What do you think his reaction would be? Just curious, Sophia. Don't you ever wonder about that?

I have a bit of a problem with the term "retaliation" affair. Both revenge upon the spouse AND callously using another person are wrong. I hope you didn't mean it that way, Leilana?<P>The reality--as BS we are terribly vulnerable. Yes, I had a friendship turn "more" this winter after my H left me again. The guy was nice and told me utterly wonderful things about me--great for my self-esteem, he wanted to marry me when the divorce would be final.<P>Then my H made the 2 year MB predicted turnaround, he didn't want the divorce and he wanted me. My overwhelming feeling was that for so long NO ONE had paid me any attention and now there were 2 men--not as nice as it may seem, I became an emotional wreck. I understood why my H had settled on the fence for so long--my marriage drew me, the new life drew me. The OM backed off to give me space to be sure about my marriage. Months later I'm back with my H, and if the OM hadn't backed off, I really don't know what the outcome would have been. My marriage & intact family was always a strong force for me--I was just running so hard from the pain, and the OM supported me in my run.<P>For me it came down to: I did Plan A for 18 months to wait for my H to come to his senses, as my H says, my prayers were answered. My feelings for the OM, along with all the regular BS trust/pain issues, in addition to giving my H trust issues about me nearly destroyed the possibility of reconciliation. <P>My advice from the trenches? Be sure your marriage is over before getting involved with someone else. I thought mine was over, the H was gone again, I'd served D papers...but that is no justification and there're reasons divorces aren't instanteous, hearts may change. Moreover, take time to heal because otherwise you'll be dragging all your marital baggage with you and whacking the new person with bags s/he didn't load.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

I would like to see more replies about this topic. I have been toying with the idea for awhile. It scares me. If I was in your position of someone telling me he wanted me so much I dont know what I would do. <BR>I fantasize about having a affair. I guess it is the excitement of it. And also the revenge factor. Since I found out about my H ea, I have thought about it. He made a comment once that the OW could probably have an affair with whoever she wanted. Well so could I. I have lost weight and look better than ever. Men are always checking me out. I know if I wanted to I could have an affair. But, I havent. And I wont. It goes against everything I believe in. So I have to protect myself from it. I dont flirt back with men. I wear my wedding ring. I dont hang out in places where the opportunity can come up. Yes, I still think about it and I wish I didnt. But those are dangerous thoughts and I need to stop daydreaming about that. <BR>TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE A RIGHT!

Lor,<P>Look three posts above yours, Hon. <P>I wish I could have changed my "topic" heading but I couldn't think of a shorter way to say "What's the consequences of having an EA/PA after your spouses has had an affair and you're in recovery or plan A or plan B"!! <P>Thanks for submitting, Lor. Was it very hard to let OM go? Is there "no contact"?

Jillian,<P>You nailed it when you repeated what you H said re: OW being so desirable (not in those exact words) and you hear the unspoken opinion that YOU are not. I felt the same way. <P>It wasn't until this guy laid it on so thick that I realized how badly I needed to hear it and feel that way. I was a hypnotized! It's like a siren's call. Saying a little mantra like "Two wrongs don't make a right" just isn't gonna work with an onslaught like that! <P>I described my whole "ordeal" under Missy9's thread several pages in--about how plan B is working for her--she's been dating while in plan B. <P>One positive thing about it (well there were several) was that I felt like I had "one up" on the OW. I know, not very enlightened of me but there it is. The things that were said to me were NEVER said to her by my H. This guy could talk circles around my H.<P>But I do feel a little guilty for not telling my H about this him. I KNOW he'd want to strangle him! So for his protection as well as that of my H's very small, easily threatened self esteem, I have put it under lock and key. Maybe one day when this is way behind us and we both feel more secure, I can tell him. <P>So the little glitch in our total honesty policy is a downside to all this ego boosting.<P> <P>

Leilana,<BR>I did miss your rephrasing, and I still think that it is important to realize that revenge bites and that, hopefully being a decent person, the OP can and probably will be hurt by any intense or serious overtures when your heart continues to be with your marriage.<P>It is hell to give him up. Limited contact late Mar-mid May. No contact since. Everytime I think of contacting him, I basically ask myself "What would you say?" He thought I was on my way to being divorced, when I delayed, then put the divorce on hold, he told me that as long as I'm married, he's not in the picture. I started the discussion on "no contact" with him, he has made it a reality. Gotta kind of respect that, especially being on MB since 12/98, I haven't seen a lot of OP draw that line and hold it. So, with my reconciliation with my husband, there truly is nothing I can say that the OM wants to hear, at least nothing I can say and still feel respect for myself. He also told me during the limited contact time--when I was calling him which my H knows about--that if I got back with my H, that would be the worst thing in the world for him and that was one of the reasons he couldn't see me until I had everything resolved because it hurt too much.<P>Be careful with the hearts of others.

My stbx and I were sitting on the porch talking about the divorce decree in his hand, and he says, "I wish I wouldn't have gotten involved with someone like that"... and he meant his latest affair. He knew it was what ended the marriage.<P>He had several affairs in 1987, seven years after we were married. In 1999, I had an affair, not as retaliation, and it royally messed both of us up (I have about 2000 posts about it, if you care to do a search). Biggest mistake of my life. He, in turn, had another affair on me, and is still with that woman. We will be divorced in early November.<P>And he would be quick to tell you that I am seeing someone else now. Maybe he considers that a retaliation affair. I don't, but hey, who am I to tell him how to feel. Truly. <P>Retaliation caused us to divorce. Plain and simple. Don't try this at home folks! <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited August 03, 2000).]