There often is success calling the op if the op has something to lose from continuing to sneak around, if the betraying spouse has something to lose, if the 2 betrrayers have any sense of honor and self control left, or if the 2 betrayers can be made to see that theirs is a fantasy and not the true love of star crossed lovers. <P>Talking to ow about how good our marriage had been and continued to be despite the affair combined with threatening embarrassing public exposure in Court did get rid of her. For example, she was absolutely shocked and appalled to know that my h had been immeasurably enjoying his sex life with me during his affair with her. <P>Often the fantasy they create won't hold up at all to meaningful examination. The affair participants may not listen to their spouses and may just whine, pout, and verbally attack. If some neutral person they respect (like a good counsellor) sits them down, and examines the fantasy with them, there are some unescapable truths that they must acknowledge.<P>I think sometimes the "big stick" approach is necessary to get them away from each other long enough to think. I also think men are more often willing to ignore practicalities - like effect on children; women are more likely to realize that their new affair relationship if carried to its conclusion will cause more problems than it solves. If ow is not just a slut (and some but not all of them are), sometimes they can be reached.<P>I agree with Dr. Harley that you do what you have to do to break off the contact between the 2 betrayers.

Forest I need to respond to you because I do understand a lot of your situation because I lived it. My husband and I started out like you and 'A'. I understand exactly what you mean when you say you were not in a fog, but really loved her. I do believe you did love her. When my husband and I first came forward to our spouses and told them about our affair and wanting a divorce his ex responded with wanting to make the marriage work, not caring if he didn't love her just wanted him to stay. I knew that I wanted out of my marriage even if the other man was not there waiting. His ex told him that if he left her she'd make sure that he had limited time with his children. He also felt the extreme guilt that you did/do. The pain and tears that I saw when looking at him killed me. I told him that he needed to work on his marriage. Try the counseling and to not have contact with me. After saying that I know the pain you felt. I grieved for him as many of the betrayers on this board have done and are doing. But, I managed to go forward with my life just as your 'A' is doing. She'll be fine and I want you to know that. And she didn't come chasing after you down your driveway because she loved/loves you. I didn't chase after either but that didn't mean that I didn't hurt or didn't love him. I just couldn't live a life like I had. Don't check on her because that will open wounds for you and if she finds out she'll start all over too. She really, really will be fine Forest. One more note, it's ok to talk about your affair with your wife...answer the questions she needs answered but don't take the path of telling her over and over how much your hurting for the other woman. I know some believe you should but if it happens too much that might be enough for her to give up on you and your marriage. I think she needs to believe that there is some love for her some where in your heart.

Oh, Truthseeker, sorry. sorry, you're right, I am not paying attention here. Hard to when the kid is right under my elbow asking me to let him play "Get Set to Learn with Sesame Street." And the dog needs to be let out every ten seconds.<P>My friends berated me for calling the OW and telling her to back off. They said that I should stay out of "their" business. (This was coming from MY friends, believe it or not.) However, I have the distinct feeling that it was the best thing that I could have done, and still do.<P>She was a mess. He tried to break it off a couple of times, but she held on with all her might. That's why I confronted her.<P>She used the "Your wife is a B, you told me so, so why are you back with her?" tactic.<BR>I think that it was important for me to talk to her, to show her that I was a real person with feelings, that I am actually a NICE person and not a monster, and that I really love my husband. It made me a human being to her, not an "obstacle."<P>That's all it took, too. One phone call. A couple of e-mails over the space of one day. I was polite, not abusive, and I didn't pry. Well, the phone call was polite, anyways.<P>She threatened me with legal action for "not leaving her alone." Whatever. I have not contacted her since then, and never will again.<P>I stand by what I did.

Wesse,<BR>Your delicacy about OP being sluts is heart-touching. Being the male betrayer, i guess it's hard not to blame myself for the op. I have a hard time not thinking of the OW as a victim first, but that's just where i'm coming from. I'm not being argumentative, i'm sure you're talking from painful experience, and since i'm a hurter and not the hurtee, i probably have no right to say the above, so, i'm sorry already.<P>Suppose the two betrayers have enough brains and hormone control to realize the effects on each other's spouses and families. Suppose they've spent the majority of time together testing the star-crossed bs to make sure that the relationship isn't some psychoanlaytical fantasy. Your post makes me wonder what the test really is. After several months or years of no contact, if the feelings haven't faded, what is it then? besides still being wrong? Can you be honest and wrong, and live? Or does honesty gradually allow something wrong to be righted?<P>Can you climb inside your husband's head and know that he still doesn't feel for OP?<P>Again, i'm not trying to fight here, just looking for some clarity.<BR>forest

BonnieSept:<P>Thank you, more than i can say. I'm hoping beyond everything at this point that 'A' is ok. I know the 'hoping she comes down the driveway' is just a childish, idiotic way of trying to shut down what i feel. I do believe she still loves me, maybe that's what hurts the most and keeps the pain alive.<BR>When i came back, and told everything, the effect on my kids was mindbending. And my wife spared them nothing, which is what i deserved and agreed with, but might have hurt them more than it was constructive. In any event, i know everyday, that the choice was my happiness or their lives, and i still feel like i made her ('A'), as 'A' said, an 'expendable agenda item'. I've never met anyone who knew what was going to happen, how people she didn't even know, and I knew all my life, were going to react. She tried so hard, early on in the relationship, to get me to just say goodbye to her, but i wouldn't, i refused. She ended up being right.<P>Thanks again so much, BonnieSept. You've helped me somehow.<P>Not to crack open a wound, but does your husband still have love in his heart for his ex? What i mean is, how can i care about my wife, love her, and feel this way about 'A'?<P>forest<BR>

Forest the om and I eventually married. When I say "husband" he was once the om. That's why I KNOW how the two of you felt/feel about each other. But, if the om (now my husband) would have moved in with my children and I (like you did) and then left and went back to his ex wife I would not have been there again if he had wanted to come back yet again. So I agree with you...if you went looking for 'A' the chances of her ever taking you back would be slim or none. It would always be in the back of her mind that you'd do it again every time you felt guilt over your children or maybe had a bad night with her. You have crushed the other woman by sitting on the fence, just as you did your wife. Your back with your wife now, to leave her yet again would destroy her.

Forest:<P>I forget, I am too lazy to go back and read through ALL of this stuff again, (blah,blah, blah) but how long has it been since you have seen 'A?' Is she living in your vicinity? Do you have means to call or write to you? Is she open to your contact? Are you open to hers?<P>I am wondering, because, like I have hinted, I was in your shoes, too, and that is why I understand you so much. Forget all the straight-up stuff I wrote, because I wrote it from living my own experience. <P>I was wondering if it would help you to tell my story. I don't want to waste your time or anymore space on this message board, but I thought that maybe one story could help. If you are interested.<P>I am not into psycho-babble or over-analyzing something to death. I like hard facts, and I go on them. That's why I pay the most attention to the stories that are posted here. Yours sounds like mine, a long time ago.<P> while I am suffering with agony and filling the ears of all you nice people of my story about how my beautiful husband has betrayed our marriage, I have another story to fess up to. <P>I cringe with guilt and hypocracy to admit that once, when I was a very young woman, married to a very yucky man, I dumped him for an 18 year old cowboy I met at my first duty station in the army. I did not betray my husband--I immediatly divorced him without a second thought to be with my "soulmate." (I was actually going to wait for sex in a potential marriage that I deemed as being "meant to be," when the marriage actually happened, if that isn't outrageous thinking!)<P> Since this was a relationship without sex, more or less, so I never wrote it down in my journal as being an affair. (I have long since admitted to it being otherwise.) It was my one and only sick obsession in life, though one that consumed me for a very long time and even lasted, for a while, into the engagement to the husband that I am now with. The after-effects lasted far into my marriage to him.<P>Maybe I was justified in my divorce, and maybe the obsession was just one of those things, but nevertheless, it caused immense heartache in my life. Even though the actual relationship lasted for a very short time, I spent way over a year sick over missing him.<P>It affected me physically (I gained so much weight! And for even being an athelete into bodybuilding, I actually became so weak, I failed an Army PFT.) Thoughts of my sweetie consumed me long after he was gone. The guilt of what I had done was overwhelming. And I was a mean person for long afterwards, too. And even when I had finally admitted in my mind that it was over, the warm feelings remained, and the thoughts of getting close to ANYONE else ever again was a big no-go. Funny how that's exactly when my husband-to-be showed up in my life. Needless to say, this was a struggle between my heart and my head.<P>Like I said, the effects, and the after-effects, of this one little fling went on and on and one, maybe even today, even though I never think about the guy except to aknowledge that he existed.<P>So I know, even though I am here on this forum to talk about being betrayed in marriage, exactly what you are going through because I have been there. <P>So that's why I asked you these questions again. You are probably getting sick of this forum by now, I would guess, with all the fussing going on.

Now, I understand the phone calls to the OP. The way they were handled is what made them successful. I was misunderstanding (big surprise, huh?) the nature/context of the situation.<P>If the phone call worked and your spouse didn't consider it an LB, then it was obviuosly the right thing to do.<P>I know at one point I accused my H of emailing the OM. It turns out that he hadn't, but if he had, I would have considered it a huge LB at the time.

Forest,<P>OK, I'm not BonnieSept., but have you ever had an old girlfriend? A childhood sweetheart? Someone you once had sweet special feelings for but now just have fond memories and an occasional "What if..." pang?<P>I know you and W were h.s. sweethearts. My H and me as well. But I still had some bittersweet relationships before him. I know you're feelings go much deeper and are "adult" but I liken my H's feelings now toward OW just as that--an old flame. He doesn't hate her. He wishes her happiness. He has only good thoughts of her. He doesn't see any of her bad qualities and even smiles indulgently about the "fights" they once had. But he no longer feels real love for her. <P>He said last nite if he could change one thing, it would be that he never crossed that line over their friendship. That is his regret. He has reached this phase. To wish he had never caused this pain to her, to me, to her H, everyone involved. He regrets the affair, not the fact that he didn't end up with her. Not every betrayers sentiment, I know. I'm one of the lucky ones, I guess. <P> Forest, I'm smiling as I read your posts now. I think you're going to end up "sponsoring" NoMas. <P>You're gonna make it, Dude. You sound like you're more than halfway out of the withdrawal phase if you can focus so much on your marriage (which is made obvious by the way you post) and not reflect so much on all the warm fuzzies you had with 'A'. Sounds like you got your nose to the grindstone. Not the fun part, I know.<P>For me, if my H was having thoughts of OW and feeling low, I'd rather he hold my hand or ask for a hug or go together for a walk and just "be" together rather than he tell me how much he misses her or have him isolate himself somehow. (Or lie about it) I'd rather he share his pain with me in that way that doesn't hurt my self-esteem/ego and deplete love units. Instead, in this way, we'd kind of be depositing them for eachother. <P> He can tell me he's having a "hard time" or feeling low and I'll know what's going on in his head but glad he's turning to me for help instead of pulling away.<P>Your W is your partner. Let her help hold you up when you feel weak. <P>I'm one of those honesty advocates (gulp!) for a strong marriage. But there is a way to be honest without being hurting her heart too much. <P> <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 07, 2000).]

Hello Forest,<P>I am a betrayed, and in one of your threads on this post you said something about you and OW sitting down and praying and reading from the Bible. You asked what does God think about this.<P>I believe God honors marriage and hates divorce. But he gives us free will to choose.<P>In my situation the OW constantly paged my H and left voicemails saying "You don't belong with your W (Resilient), you belong with me and your son, you've already given Resilient 7 years, now it's time for me and your son. God won't give you your future until you accept it. Trust in God, I'll pray every day from this day forward that you'll make me the one, that I could be the one and you will leave her, it's God's destiny for us. We're your family not Resilient."<P>Well, you know what happened, he left me for OW. So what is that??? Did God answer her prayers. You tell me because I can't get my mind around this one.<P>Jo

Berzini and Truthseeker,<P>Thanks Berzini, I was also at the point of insanity and someone had to stop it or stop something. My H had told her he was coming back to me and that it was over and they had been going south since the d-day. He taped it so I could hear it.<P>She would call him to see if he was "ok", she would call him on his cell to "just hear his voice message", BARF!!! She would call with her private name showing on the caller ID just to let him know it was her. This went on for four months after he came back home.<P>I did not weeny whine and weep to her to leave my H alone. I put it very bluntly, and meant it...b/c all I had to do was to make a phone call to her H, who still to this day , does not know about their A. (some people are protected)<P>She left him in July 99 b/c he didn't like to have fun. Hah! Fun!, maybe his libido couldn't keep up with her nympho ways, even if he was on viagra. Two weeks after my H signed off and out w/ her she called him to tell him she was sleeping with someone else now b/c of the way he treated her. Oh, poor baby! What a sleaze! Oh well, gotta get off this jag, I'll be slapping my H when he walks in the door.<P>Read you soon,<BR>Cathy

Forest,<P>I really felt what you said about you not being able to comfort each other much.<P>This was one of the strangest parts of all this. That we were both so unhappy, but could not be there "together". It still helps to be open.<P>I dug up an old thread in hopes it may help. Although it addresses telling the spouse, we also discussed how we supported each other emotionally through withdrawal:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003202.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003202.html</A> <p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited August 07, 2000).]

My sentiments exactly Leilana! I do believe we have a survivor here!<BR>By George, I think he's got it...<P>Forest, You will make it, I too believe you are half way through the fog now, you are only in the mist.<P>You say it has only been two months since your reconcile efforts began. Well, after two months for my H, he was still a basket case, I don't think he was doing as well as you are.<P>It took him a good three, maybe four months before he could take a deep breath. I can't tell you how he felt inside, but, outwardly, I could tell when he was having a paticularly bad day, hour or minute. And he may still be having bad days as of now, although I don't see it displayed openly any longer. <P>Like Leilana said, you are focusing on your wife and children, if you weren't you wouldn't be with us right now. You're doing good. Keep her (W) in the forefront of your mind.<P>Are you sure you aren't my H? Are your OW's initials LJ?<P>You scare me !!!<P>Good luck, you'll lose a few fingernails while hanging on, but that's ok, you need to lose something, right!

Yeah, Catplay, I have to fully admit that I used that line, too, in one of those e-mails that I told you wasn't "as polite as the phonecall." <P>I said "Okay, I know where you and my husband were on Valentine's Day. I gotta deal with this. But how about your husband and your kid? Who gets to tell them?"<P>I would have never, ever told her husband, no matter how much I threatened. If there is one thing that is none of my business in this whole matter, it's their marriage. I believe in the sacredness of marriage--even with a skeezer like her. By the way, I did see the dialogue between my H and OW of the night she told her husband that she was moving out to "find herself." My husband asked if he still cared. She said "Unfortunately, he does. He says he still loves me."<P>Now why would I tell the poor guy that his wife was a permanent resident at Motel 6? It aint my business. And I feel sorry for him.<P>Forest:<P>Yeah, I think you are gonna make it. These are some smart people here (I don't think that I am one of them) and they have a lot of great things to say. I am sure that if you stick with it, I mean, this forum, and are honest with yourself and your wife, you will begin to heal.<P>You may always think well of your 'A' but in time she will become just a person you knew. If that is what you want for your marriage.

Jo:<P>My wife constantly reminds me that God would never honor the prayers or bible study of two people committing adultery.<P>'A' never prayed that i would leave my wife for her, just that God would show us some path that would lead to each other, and we were both adamant about getting married.<P>Stupidly funny thing is we both hate divorce too. Her, because she went through it with her parents, and me, because i swore i'd never do that to my wife and kids.<P>Jo, i don't know what to say. I don't believe anyone knows what prayers God answers, or if everything that happens is the answer to prayer. I'm sorry, not that that helps, but when i see the terror and panic both my wife and kids reflected when i separated and started mentioning divorce, i know i couldn't live with it. So, was that God answering my wife's prayers, or just what happened. My wife prayed everyday, devoutly, that our marriage would never go through anything like this, but that happened too.<P>forest<P><BR>

BonnieSept:<BR>i figured out that you and OM eventually married, that's why i wanted to know if he still had feelings for his ex wife. And wondering if you still have feelings for your exhusband.<P>Just to clarify, when i separated, i lived alone, in a different state, not with 'A'. We never moved in together. I was determined, at that time, to end the marriage without making 'A' the focal point.<BR>Which was a joke. And 'A' is(?) married with a child of her own. I don't know if she's divorced or not now.<P>forest<BR>

God hates divorce, but a whole lot of us don't pay attention to God, and divorce happens. And so we must deal with it.<P>God doesn't get into our way unless we ask him to. Sometimes he lets us go ahead and makes mistakes to teach us.<P>My husband's girlfriend told him over and over again that she was praying for God to give him to her as a lifetime mate. I am praying for him to stay with me and be my husband, as we intended--but that I also want for him to be happy. And I want God's will to be done, first and foremost.<P>My husband is not a believer. He does not pray (I used to think that a major factor in him straying was that he was not a Christian man--but after seeing the number of Christians, ministers and Sunday school teachers admitting to straying, I believe Dr H when he says that it can happen to anybody, no matter what they believe.) So he is a neutral party to all of this prayer stuff.<P>Is this a Battle of the Prayers? Or is this like Solomon dividing the baby into equal halves--the one who truly loves is the one who is willing to let him go?<P>God's will be done, first and foremost.

Bernzini:<P>It's been almost 3 months since any contact at all. We communicated through email, phone, pager and my visits to her. She lives states away. It is quite possible she has left the country. I have promised my wife complete openess; if 'A' calls or emails, i will let her know immediately. My wife has access to both my voicemail and email, our phonenumbers and my pager number has been changed several times. I honestly don't know what i am really 'open' to. I'm starting to wonder if i'm really in love with 'A', because if i was, i suppose i would just call or email, no matter what consequences it brings to my marriage. But... back to square one. <P>forest<P>

Forest,<P>Did you have a chance to read the thread I found and linked?<P>Are you and your w able to cry on each other's shoulders?<P>It helped a lot to share our pain with each other even though we experienced it alone. Later, we had to focus more on doing fun things together.<P>The battle of the prayers?? I honestly don't understand the confusion there. If God granted requests that were against his own commandments, he would be waffling like we do.<P>I know there are folks from all religions here, but the God of the Bible would not break up a home to grant the request of someone for a "soulmate".<P>It sounds more like Santa Claus than God.<P>I guess it's easier to attribute our failures to God than to own them fully and completely. My spouse failed. I failed. No ifs or buts.<P>Our prayer is and has been for a long time that God would grant us wisdom and strength to do what we need to do. And still we fail. And we learn from our failures and hopefully don't repeat them again. We strive to be wise, that we can look back and not see ourselves living the same year 70 times, rather growing.<P>OK, off my soap box...<P>Forest the secret is to have a marriage that is truly fulfilling our ENs. We are rebuilding what we failed to build the first time. I don't believe any woman can give him what I can, and he now knows it. But neither of us knew that at dday. It has taken our walking down this road...<P><BR>

Forest, Resilient and the rest:<P>Alright, I'm breaking out the Bible verses. <P>Forest, you said you are a Christian. Me too. Therefore, our guide is the Bible, right? <P>I don't want to berate you. You sound very sincere to me and I applaud your efforts to rebuild your marriage. However, you can be sincere and still be sincerely wrong.<P>You go on and on about how the OW only wanted the best for you, your happiness, blah blah blah. Not true. If she was truly unselfishly interested in your well-being, she would not have gotten involved with you. She would not have been a party to hurting your family in such a devastating way. <P>I know you care for her and you don't want to hear this but... if you are interested in what the God you said you prayed to has to say - hear it is:<P>"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral."<BR>Hebrews 13:4<P>"All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the Lord."<BR>Proverbs 16:2<P>"As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly."<BR>Proverbs 26:11<P>"My son, pay attention to wisdom,<BR>Listen well to my words of insight,<BR>that you may maintain discretion<BR>And your lips may preserve knowledge.<BR>For the lips of an adulteress drip honey,<BR>And her speech is smoother than oil;<BR>But in the end she is bitter as gall,<BR>sharp as a double-edged sword.<BR>Her feet go down to death;<BR>Her steps lead straight to the grave.<BR>She gives no thought to the way of life;<BR>Her paths are crooked, but she knows it not.<P>Now then, my sons, listen to me;<BR>Do not turn aside from what I say.<BR>Keep a path far from her,<BR>Do not go near her house...<P>Drink water from your own cistern,<BR>running water from your own well...<P>And may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. <BR>A loving doe, a graceful deer - <BR>May her breasts satisfy you always,<BR>May you ever be captivated by her love.<BR>Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress?"<BR>Proverbs 5<P>My dear forest... This woman may not have realized the full weight of what she did. I don't know her and I can't say. BUT, let there be no doubt as to WHAT SHE DID WHETHER SHE WAS FULLY AWARE OF IT OR NOT! Okay? If you are a Christian then you should seek to see this through God's eyes. Period. <P>Does God love her? Yes. He died for her. Does He think she did an evil, evil thing? Yes. Read His word yourself. Proverbs, my friend. It just really gets my dander up to hear you defending her at every turn and then to read what "I perceive" to be your lack of genuine concern for your wife. I understand you are in withdrawal. And by all means, vent away. Glad you are here. But, please take to heart what I am saying.<P>You said your wife spared your children nothing in telling them of your affair. You say you agreed but, gosh, couldn't she hold out on some of the gory details? Am I wrong? Read that between the lines. <P>Okay, forest... YOU and the OW spared your children nothing. Look at that pain in your wife's face. OW and YOU did that. This wife of yours is part of you, according to God, so that pain CAUSED by OW was not for your betterment, your ultimate happiness, your soul-mate realization experience. <P>Ephesians 5 tells us, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies."<P>You said that you and your wife are both so hurt that neither one of you can help yourselves, much less each other (or something like that). Therein lies your problem, forest. <P>Give yourself up for your wife! Stop being selfish. How? First of all, PRAY without ceasing that God will remove the feelings of love you have for OW. Get out the ol Bible and do some reading so you can be sure that that is what God wants. Don't take the word of little ol me. I'm just relaying the words of Almighty God. <P>He wants you to love your wife and no one else. (OW that is). Proverbs again - "The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity." So, pray, pray, pray that God will help you in this. You are spinning your wheels to say, "Oh man, I miss her. What a bad deal. When am I gonna get over it?" Get on your knees man! <P>If you are waiting to be able to help yourself before you can help your wounded, broken wife - then I hope you have one heck of a good Rolex.<P>Meet her needs. Think of all the things you can do to make her life easier. Get your eyes off yourself and your problems won't seem so big. I suggest you write her a list of all the things you love about her. Shoot for 25. Hair color, patience with the kids, intelligence, whatever. Give this to her and keep a copy for yourself. Everytime you get the "I miss the OW" blues, break out the list. Remind yourself every hour of the day of what you love about your wife. Make yourself another list about everything God says about how to treat your wife. Pray over these things and ask Him to make them real in your life. Ask Him to help you love your wife WITH HIS LOVE. See her through His eyes. See her with His compassion. (I'm talking about your wife here, don't forget!)<P>And as far as you lying to keep your marriage together, haven't you seen where lying gets you in your marriage???? <P>Why on earth would you think it would be a good thing? I don't care what pastor said that. You listen to what God says about lying. <P>One final thing... <BR>all this praying with OW and OW saying it was God's will for man to leave his wife (Resilient's dilemma) this is CONTRARY TO EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE. Anyone who feels they have a direct revelation about some circumstances which are in contrast to what God has revealed in His word, are on the wrong path. Maybe well-intentioned, but wrong, nonetheless. <P>"If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law,<BR>even his prayers are detestable."<BR>Proverbs 28:9<P>Okay, I'll get off my MB pulpit now. Just kidding. I don't mean to offend you and I hope I haven't. But as a Christian, I just felt like you were looking for answers in all the wrong places.