Forest: I was just wondering. Ref my story I told early, after seeing not seeing my sweetie for a whole year, and pining for him the entire time while dating the guy I was to marry, I met up with my cowboy friend again.<P>To make a long story short. All I had to do was see him once, see, with my eyes, and then I was ready to pull the stupid sign out of my pocket and hang it around my neck.<P>What in the sam hill had I been thinking?!!!!!<P>I threw my life away for this guy, and he was just basically a figment of my imagination! Just an ideal, a picture of in my head. The real guy was just another joe-blow, after all. And after dating my husband-to-be and growing closer to him, the "soulmate" of my memories was a nobody. I just didn't want to believe that the whole time.<P>It's complicated. That's why I asked how long it's been since you've seen 'A.' The time may come when you see her again, and she and you both will be totally different people, and you will have the same reaction that I did when I saw my little cowboy again. "What was I thinking?!"<P>Your mind rests on the old memories, the fun times that you had with someone and won't let go. And that's all that you remember of that person, the pleasant feelings and the closeness and the things shared. And granted, that's nice to remember. But in reality, after you part and time goes on, the person makes happy memories of her own, and so do you. Memories that you do not share. And you grow apart. And become different people.<P>You will always remember her love and friendship and the good feelings that she brought you. But know that while you are apart, she is changing from that person that was yours into something new. Every new experience in life brings even the slightest change to a person.<P>You have to make happy memories-to-be with your wife now. Allow yourself to now get close to her, and look at her as a new love, a fresh romance. Pretend you are meeting her for the first time. This could be fun!!<P>But Forest, I think that you have gotten the point by now. You seem like a very intelligent man who knows himself well. I don't think that you have to have it spelled out for you any further. I hope to hear positive things of your progress. Luck!

Forest, in response to your questions. During my seperation/divorce from my ex he did some things that were so evil and vandictive that they wiped any chances of my having any "good" thoughts of him. That is such a long story but to answer your question, just hearing his voice makes me shake all over with hate from the way he treated and still treats his children. So, no good thoughts there. My husband was married to his ex for only 5 years. I think that is a bit different compared to the long term marriages that have a lot of history. Do I worry about him thinking about her? No. Him and I have been together now longer then they were and have built our own history. They married at a time when most of their friends were already married and had started a family. My husband cared about her, liked her but was not in love with her. She knew that going into the marriage. Having been deeply in love at one time in his life he felt he'd never feel that again and that caring for the person was as good as it got after you'd love and lost once. They still have a friendship and I think that's wonderful. I wish my ex wasn't so messed up for his kids sake.

Forest -<P>Your compassion and pain has touched all of us who responded deeply. You do sound like you are at least pointing yourself in the right direction, and your main problem right now is the pain of losing the OW, and trying to figure out what to do about the love you still feel for her. Try to remember that perhaps the reason the OW is not contacting you is not because she doesn't still care for you, but maybe because she cares so much that she is seeing beyond HER own selfish desires and wants to help you do what you have to do by staying away. What is the point of reopening old wounds? Same for you - think of it in terms of staying away from her because you DO still care, and you want to spare her any more pain. Try to rise above your own desires is what it is all about - you are doing the BEST thing for the everyone - not the perfect solution, but the BEST solution. This is not about what you or your OW THINK might make you happy if you were to have run off together. Its about honoring your commitments, and coming through for the people in your life who need, and need to trust you the MOST. <P>You are without a doubt going through the most painful stage of withdrawal right now. Give your self another 6 months and I guarantee you will start feeling better. Not completely over her, but much better and with a better perspective. That is, only if you continue to maintain NO contact with the OW whats so ever. If you slip up, you'll be back to square one and just open up the whole painful can of worms for everyone once again. I know it seems impossible - but those feelings will fade with time. You may always feel a little sentimental, but stop trying to tell your self, torture yourself with the constant question "if this hurts so bad, doesn't that mean that its true love and can't be ignored?" You must realize that the emotions you feel are normal trying to stay away from what made you feel so good, but that these emotions are fueled by fantasy, and all this drama just increases the illusion that this must be too strong to forsake. <P>My husband tried many times to break it off with the OW. Each time he tried, he missed her, the drama and intensity just became magnified due to these attempts, and each time they got back together, the feeling of desperation just fueled the fire. Its ironic, but I truly believe if they wouldn't have tried to "do the right thing" and break up so many times, if they wouldn't have got caught and just played it out without trying to break up, it would have ended on its own and died a natural death. Same thing if he would have run off with her - but the price he would have payed in having to hurt me and the kids to find out that it wouldn't have worked was too great. So he ended it when they both still cared, with that same nagging question that you have " Am I walking away from true love, the one person that could have made me happy?" The secrecy, the longing, the desperation - it all fuels the fire. <P>My dad used to say - "you can probably fall in love and be happy with a thousand different men, so you might as well pick a rich one". The point is, if the timing is right and you allow yourself to stray, there are probably many, many women out there that you could fall in love with. She is only special because you allowed yourself to cross that line and fall in love with her. <BR>You allowed her to be special by letting her into your life and becoming intimate with her, both emotionally and physically. And whenever we allow someone into our lives like this, we are loath to let it go, cause its painful. The bottom line is, you made a mistake, its painful to let go, but ya gotta do it. <P>Give yourself time. You and your wife WILL heal. Comfort each other - you both feel pain, you both feel love, you need each other more than ever before, and you really can be there for each other. Comforting my husband as he cried over his OW was so painful, but I did feel for him, and that is what true love is all about. When you talk to your wife, talk to her with compassion, that you know she is hurting too. Its weird, but the times we really felt the closest was when he confessed that he was hurting over her and let me comfort him. The bad parts were when he was hurting, keeping it from me - he just acted distant, resentful, and we both cried alone. <P>Some practical suggestions - get physical !!<BR>My husband bought a drum set, a punching bag, joined an adult soccer team, pumped iron, played pick up basket ball - all this stuff was a good release for him, and really helped. We are 7 months past d-day, 5 months passed the ending of all contact. 2-3 months of hell, then another 2 months of gradual improvement. One day at a time.<BR>I know he still cares, and misses her, but he is finally over his most painful desperate period, and able to enjoy me and the kids again. Stop questioning and analyzing your feelings for the OW and the A so much, just accept that you are going to hurt for a while, keep yourself pointed in the right direction, have faith in yourself, you wife, your family and your future. You will make it - I promise. Take care.

DeadInside:<P>Strange nickname for someone posting Words of life. Thank you, the verses are familiar, believe me, both 'A' and myself poured over them, trying desperately to find some direction through what we both knew was sin.<P>As for giving myself up for my wife, I did that for twenty years. I'm not complaining, but after all that time of doing what needed to be done to meet her needs and my kids', i felt useless, empty, and yes, "dead inside". Maybe that's why i fell in love with 'A'. Typical mid-life crisis, right?<P>Malachi 2:13-16, my wife had my son read this to me, on our way to church, after i had told my wife i wanted a divorce. I had memorized it already, but to hear your own <BR>child read it through hysterical tears...<P>And please don't read me wrong, i'm not defending her endlessly, 'A' is an adult, more intelligent than i'll ever be, and knew what she was doing. But i made the first advances, i took advantage of her situation, i made myself available at every turn, i traveled the distance to see her, and i refused to say goodbye when she kept insisting that she was just 'ruining the perfect picture'. I'm not trying to flog myself here, i'm just being objective and honest about what went on and how. <P>I am in the Word everyday, Christian radio on the commute back and forth to work, and in devotionals and prayer with my wife each and every day, even when i really don't feel like it. No, i'm not looking for a pat on the back, i'm just expressing the fact that i know that in myself, i don't have what it takes to rebuild a marriage i managed to destroy so quickly. And i am, without being phony, trying to build her spirit and her self-respect back up, although i know i need to keep trying harder. The last thing she wants now, and this is my wife talking, is patronization.<P>The 'withdrawal' or whatever it is i'm dealing with, when it gets the worst, is always tempered with honest pleas to God that He remove the feelings from me, perform some type of spiritual lobotomy on me. I am willing to let the feelings go, they just don't. It's not fading, not mellowing. And it's strange for me, because i've never felt anything like this before. Is it just the fact that it's sin? Was it intensified because of the emptiness that i felt at home and at work? And since home and work haven't really changed, is that what's keeping the feelings alive? Man, that sure sounds pathetic. <P>Thanks, DI, you're not berating; first post that sounds like a counselor we (wife and i) went to see when this first all started, except he was into the 'constructive lying' thing.<P>forest<P><BR>

Forest,<P>I've been following this thread, but I've been silent because you've been getting very good advice. However, you are in a personal crisis. I know because I've been exactly where you are. In fact the withdrawal got so bad I had to go on anti-depressants. I used to post about a year ago looking for the same answers that you're looking for. The only thing I can tell you is that in order to help yourself you need to realize that the relationship outside of marriage would have only destroyed you and everyone around you. Get a copy of Frank Pittmans book called, "Private Lies". Read chapters 10 and 13. You'll start to see what an illusion the relationship was. You too may need to go on anti-depressants to get over the withdrawal, but it will get easier. But the most important thing you need to do is end all contact with the other person. No emails, telephone, pages, etc. No contact at all. When thoughts of the other person come into your head force them out. Stop dwelling on the good times you had and could have had. It's all just an illusion. The other thing you need to do is (and this may sound strange) get out of this forum after you think you received all the help you can get. You'll know when that is because the answers and advice will start repeating. I say this because after a period of time this forum stops helping and just keeps opening the wounds and reminding you of what you should be trying to forget. Another thing you can do is get involved with something that will keep you mind occupied. At home or at work it doesn't matter, but start focusing on something that will require your concentration and when thought of the relationship come into your head push them out asap. Don't dwell on them. You may never forget this person, I haven't and it's been over a year now, but the pain will deminish if you take charge of yourself. Good luck and remember we are in control of our own destiny.

Forest,<P>I wanted to reply. About the nickname... I picked it when I had just found out about my H's A and I could think of no other description for myself. God has been my only deliverance and the only deliverance for my H, I might add. Maybe I can get him to talk to you...<P>I am glad you are relying on God. You don't sound pathetic to me at all. And I don't know if it is because it is sin that your feelings are so intense. I'm sure that is part of it. You know, the reason God gives us all these instructions is to warn us from the pain we are walking into. Sadly, I have learned this lesson the hard way many times in my life. As you are learning it now. It's like, "OHHH, this is why God told me not to do that..." <P>I definitely think the reason you could be holding onto these feelings is that things have not changed for you much at home or work. You still have the same problems, but only now no "pick-me-up". Your wife has a responsibility here to make an environment where you both can thrive emotionally. It is just so hard for her right now in the midst of these circumstances. <P>I know one of my H's big problems with me was that I "didn't appreciate him", didn't act like I liked him and thought he was the greatest... The OW did. Well, after he first told me about the A I sure didn't feel like liking him then! It drove him back to where he felt appreciated, liked, whatever. This is a long story and this thread isn't about me, I just say this so that you will know that it is hard for her to be all you need at this time. And I know it is hard for you because you have not stopped needing what you need! <P>My bottom line here is that he had to learn where his significance really comes from. God. And as he has grown in the Lord, God has done so much healing in our marriage. <P>Our situations are somewhat different in that your OW sounds like a somewhat upstanding citizen while all would agree my H's was not. So, you seeing the relationship in a negative light may be more difficult for you. Either way, I know you know it doesn't change God's opinion on adultery. <P>Have you clearly communicated your needs to your wife? You may have addressed this (too lazy to go back). What is it that you need? Maybe we can find ways of helping you get that. You want to be happy in your marriage and you have every right to pursue that. WITHIN YOUR MARRIAGE!! With the strength of God, I have been able to make changes that needed to be made in our marriage for my H. <P>In reality, this is not your marriage. This is God's marriage. For us it all started with God. We would not be here today without Him.<P>Keep praying, brother. <P>"But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him. If you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul." Deut. 4:29<P>In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight. He will! <P>P.S. Do you have an accountability partner? You should get yourself one. <P>

Wow, freedom.<P>This is very good advice.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>The other thing you need to do is (and this may sound strange) get out of this forum after you think you received all the help you can get. You'll know when that is because the answers and advice will start repeating. I say this because after a period of time this forum stops helping and just keeps opening the wounds and reminding you of what you should be trying to forget. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that is what's happening for me. I'm identifying too heavily with the word 'betrayer' and I'm constantly being reminded of the past. It's keeping me from moving forward.<P>So how do I break THIS addiction?

Lady DI,<P>Dead inside sounds a bit harsh and DI feels like i'm talking to a marine, so...<P>I haven't had the time to really go through the whole EN, love bank thing here, so even trying to express to my wife why the adultery happened ends up sounding idiotic, as i just search for something to say. My wife was clingy, yet so was 'A', to some extent. I really don't know what to tell my wife when she asks what it is she can do, change, stop doing. She's constantly asking me what I need. What I need. Incredible. After what i did, she really really cares about what i need. And i can't even be helpful enough to know what it is i need. <P>I'm praying, relating everything to the Lord every waking minute, He's more real to me now then He's ever been, yet...<P>And as far as 'A' being a 'pick me up'; she had tremendous personal problems herself, none of which i was the answer to. Which really didn't add up to a big 'pick me up'. If anything, i'd get more distraught over her circumstances, and my inability to do anything real for her. Other than complicate matters further for her. <P>I would love to be able to just express to my wife, here, this is what i need. This and that is why i felt like i did before all this happened. But it's not there. I search, i look inside, i'm either incredibly shallow, or just don't have the tools to find what it is that i really need. I keep coming up with these lame, vague, unfocused feelings about emptiness, disconnectedness, things no one can do anything about but me.<P>Proverbs 3:5-6, my wife's favorite verse, it's all over the house.<P>Bottom line, no matter how bad i feel, He keeps me on line at home, and He alone is keeping me from contacting 'A'. Because i know i would have already, along time ago. I never knew 3 months could seem like a century.<P>I think i'm about through here.<P>Thanks again, DI<P>

Forest, have you seen a doctor to see if perhaps you are clinically depressed? If you are, you may not be able to get yourself out of it. There are really good medications available that may help you if taken for 6 months or so. I do hope that you are able to find peace of mind!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would love to be able to just express to my wife, here, this is what i need. This and that is why i felt like i did<BR> before all this happened. But it's not there. I search, i look inside, i'm either incredibly shallow, or just don't have the tools to find what it is that i really need. I keep coming up with these lame, vague, unfocused feelings about emptiness, disconnectedness, things no one can do anything about but me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lame, vague unfocused feelings...not unusual. Part of the process is learning yourself, and what you really (down deep) need and want, and then sharing it with your wife. But, a lot of the process IS self-discovery, so don't feel like your lack of ability to ID all this is too strange.<P>Do consider depression as a possible part of this...if it is there and not treated, it WILL make all this harder.<P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I keep coming up with these lame, vague, unfocused feelings about emptiness, disconnectedness, things no one can do anything about but me.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. that about sums up my problem and it's taken a good long time (months), but I have finally admitted that I am suffering from depression and need help with that. Hopefully the task of finding out all these things will get a little easier once the depression is under control.

Dead Inside and Forest,<P>I, like Forest, can't believe someone with such biblical insight uses this name, you should change it to God Send, because that's what you are...<BR>Dead Inside:<BR>Since Forest has more than likely made the decision to not post anymore so he can focus on his needs and his wife, will you continue to answer others?<P>You are terrific, I wish I had been able to contact this board last year this time. So many of you are such wonderful inspirations.<P>I probably wouldn't have made myself look or act like such a desperate, needy fool! I wish I could communicate with you personally. But, I don't know how to do this on this site.<P>Forest:<BR>Good luck to you Forest, I think you will be ok soon. At least you are trying to find answers and share you misery. My H still has not addressed so many issues and I wish he would have shown the remorse and convictions you have shown.<P>He keeps talking about his not knowing what his needs are and he doesn't think that I can meet them, whatever they are. We have some issues that involve bad habits and I believe he is more in love with them than me and is unwilling to give them up for me. Therefore, it is so difficult for me to respond to any of HIS needs, trust him and love him when I know I'm not the "thing" he loves most.<P> Forest, I hate to see you go so soon, but do what you have to do and again, good luck.<P>Cathy

Forest<P>This is my very first reply here on the Marriage Builders forum. I have been following these post for the past week because I am in the same situation as you. I have gone back and read the post by freedom and his reply to this and I find myself in the same situation. Whenever I get the nerve to post my story and ask for help here, I will. But, I will tell you that you are not alone. I am still in an affair that is now into it's second year. I am still at home as is the OW. I am trying to end it because it is simply "WRONG" and I can't do this anymore. The problem with me is that I cannot walk away from the love that I have developed for the other woman and she can't walk away from me. I have read here for the past month trying to get the guts to post. So here I am. I am trying to get out of this relationship, but I feel like I am dying inside. I just wish there was someone out there that could tell me how to do it.<P>I fell better now and I hope you and I and everyone else here can get through this "TIME" in our lives. I know how I feel right now, God only knows how my W is going to feel when I have to tell her. I just don't want to hurt her any more.<P>I don't know which way to turn. Thanks for letting me get this out.<P>"R"

Roadie,<P>It is good you are here. I and many others know your pain and what you are going through. You have taken a good step by coming to these boards and posting. It took me 4 months before I ever posted anything - and I don't think I've ever posted my whole story. I know exactly how you feel. <P>Stay here, keep reading and post when you can. It is very hard, but you can make it. I am praying for you. With God's help and the support of people here you CAN do it. <P>------------------<BR>"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

First counselor we went to mentioned the possibility that both my wife and myself were clinically depressed. The chemical inbalance in the brain, all that good stuff. I'm not anti-doctors, or anti-medicine, but the thought of taking something that's going to 'make' me feel better just scares the crap out of me. I really, truly believe that what i did was wrong and that i'm just reaping the fabulous benefits of sin. That might sound fundamentalist to some, but as i've posted before, they ain't the Ten Suggestions. <P>Besides the fact that i get wasted taking aspirin, anti-depressants might have me crawling the walls.<P>Thanks all,<BR>Forest<BR>

Just wanted to second the antidepression route. I think that a lot of people stuck feeling empty and disconnected are stuck within themselves.<P>One of the things my H said to me after he left was that he had been wandering in the darkness of our marraige for a long time (which he now admits was 2 years and due to stress at work, although he is still out, still with OW, and we are heading for D)<P>Acknowledgeing it is the first step.. Exploring the reasons for it is the next step. I think a good personal counselor can help tremedously, but it requires really wakening up to those issues from "long ago" that put us in that shape. <P>Antidepressants don't really alter your thinking... I actually think they can help you see things more clearly.. or at least start you on the way to dig very deep, which is very, very painful.<P>My h is in counseling, and will admit it is his problem... but I still see him not really doing anything about it but continue to medicate himself by changing his ideology (antimaterialim thing) and his mirror (exchanging me for the OW).

Forest,<P>Lady DI sounds good to me. I AM a big Princess Diana fan! Harsh is no good and I am certainly no marine...<P>Listen, don't beat yourself up over not being able to identify why you had the A. I have struggled so much with "WHY why why." My H's counselor said I am looking for logical answers where there aren't any. Unmet needs, yada yada. That is true. But, I was looking for RATIONAL reasons why my H did a very UNRATIONAL thing. You may never be able to tell your W, "Here, this is why I did this" and have her say, "Oh, that makes perfect sense." So, there is nothing wrong with you that you cannot come up with a rationale for your A.<P>I seriously do not think that you are a shallow person or you would not be giving so much of yourself to this process of really trying to fix your marriage. Shallow would have been out the door and never wondered why... <P>What the others said about depression could be a very real possibility. I know it can be hard for people, men in particular sometimes (no offense), to admit they need help. It was for my H. It took practically losing his W and two children for him to realize he needed help. He is on antidepressants now and in counseling and he is a different man. <P>I am just wondering if this could be the case with you. He too felt "lost, empty". Please check into this possibility it could mean the world to your family. <P>And while I am out on this limb speculating about the mental health of a stranger...<BR>Do you think you may have some problems with false intimacy? Are you familiar with the term? This, we have discovered through counseling, is a problem for my H. Your posts say some similar things. Don't mean to judge you, understand. Just fishing. You speak of disconnectedness. Have you ever talked to a counselor about issues in your past dealing with real connectedness to important people in your life? Could be you've got some issues there. <P>And I don't mean your OW was one big happy hour pick-me-up. My H's was loaded with personal problems, needy as can be, he basically was a party to further exacerbating her traumatic life. But, her needs were not real to him. He did not have responsibility for her life. He did not care about her overall well-being or he would not have gotten involoved. He could, however, swoop in and rile up the "romance" giving them both a quick fix from everyday life. Him - a quick fix from his depression and undealt with issues of shame and disconnectedness in his past. Her - quick fix from - well, I can't begin to speculate about her. A lifetime of being used, abused, blah blah blah. <P>Figure out what it really is OW provided you with. I think you said you are seeing a counselor. Is this right? It may be helpful if you see one on your own as well. <P>Catplay:<BR>I'm glad if something I said helped you. For now I'm sticking with the nickname. Frankly, I can't remember how I registered in the first place... Too much trouble to change. My email address is family1st_642@yahoo.com. Don't think I have all the answers. Those are the words of God. I just can read!

Thanks SLW for your reply.<P>After I wrote this post I felt like it was my first step. I took the second step and called the OW to tell her my decision and what I had done. She cried. Now I feel like dirt. I asked her to come here and gave her the internet address. I told her what my ID was so she could read my post. I hope she comes as well because she is going to need the help and support also. When I put the phone down a feeling of tiredness washed over me. Now I can hardly do anything. I know I am infringing on forest post so I will clear out for now. THANKS!

roadie,<P>one more reply: two things that helped me a lot were<P>1) to expect the way you are feeling so it doesn't take you by surprise and you feel you need to give in just because you feel so bad. Don't give in to how you feel. Expect to feel pain - it always accompanies sin. <P>2) I listened (and still do) to music almost all day to keep my mind focused. Don't know if you are a christian, but if you are, you might listen to worship music that can keep you focused. It is a real battle in the mind - keep at it with your face set like a flint straight ahead on the goal - to do what is right and restore your marriage and love for your wife.<P>As much as it hurts - and it definitely does - there is a sweet relief/peace that comes from knowing you are finally doing the right thing and are back on the right path. You are not alone, many have walked where you are now. There is hope.

SLW,<P>Thanks, I know this is not going to be easy. I am at a very low point right now but trying to cope. It is going to take me awhile to get around to telling my W. Should I tell or not? I don't know here. And I thought the hard part was going to be telling the OW.