Most of the posts I read are from Betrayed Spouses Plan Aing and Plan Bing there themselves to death.<P>In my situation, my H had the affair. I don't want the marriage anymore. I am saying I will never love him again. I am wanting out. I went through withdrawal from him and am coming out of it wanting a divorce.<P>He feels that since he ended the affair, went through the Harley Books, that sort of thing that we are on the road to recovery, atleast as far as he is concerned.<P>I am just too tired to want any part of it anymore.

Does the betrayer ever have to do all the work? Yes I think for a time they do.<P>I have to work continuelly to try and earn my husbands trust , respect ect ect.<P>No I have not earned it. He is devestated. For reasons I cannot understand He is still here.<P>Plan A is something I also have to do.<P>mercy

I guess what I'm getting at is that I have what so many here don't. I have my H back. He isn't needing space to think. He isn't going through withdrawal. He isn't being unfaithful to me now.<P>We should be in recovery. We should be a success. We would be a success if I could just let him back in.<P>I am saying the things that I hear coming from the betrayers who "no longer love" their spouses and have no desire to save the marriage, yet I am not in the midst of an affair, I have never had one. I am trying to get past my H's affair.<P>My H says I am having an affair with a fantasy. A mindset of having an untainted marriage. A marriage with a man that never cheated on me. He says that is my affair and my betrayal. Is that possible?

Fickled:<P>Typically, the one who has more "love" in the lovebank does the work. That's often the betrayed spouse in the beginning, because the wayward spouse who's having an affair usually isn't "in love" with their spouse. But it can often switch roles in recovery, as the betrayed spouse has the emotions and resentment coming through, while the wayward spouse is out of the addiction and clearly sees how much love their spouse has spent on them through that awful time.<P>However, you have let things get too out of hand, because you've lost "all" your love for your husband. Let me remind you that love is temporary and conditional---and although you say you will never love him again, you certainly could, if he would meet the conditions you need to feel that love again.<P>The issue from the last post seems to be that he's not meeting those conditions. I'm also betting that he's probably not even sure of what those conditions are, or that he's not getting "feedback" from you. This is because you're hitting withdrawal from the marriage, and you don't feel like bothering with the effort anymore.<P>I'd urge you to try the MarriageBuilder's counseling together. Steve Harley is a tremendous coach, and I think he could instill in your husband the importance of a focused, sustained, on-target effort on regaining your love. I'm guessing that you would have less to do in this process, initially---he'd want you to learn how to give feedback to your husband to help him perfect his skills at making you love him.<P>You've stated that you're staying in the marriage; for convenience, because you're scared to be on your own, and for biblical reasons. Since you're going to stay, I'd encourage you to try to muster up some effort to have the marriage become terrific. It's clear that you're tired, and that's why I'd recommend that you call MarriageBuilder's and help them jump start the recovery process. Their office number is 888-639-1639.

Fickled,<P>Welcome to MB.<P>In the other thread, you said, you have lost the feelings and can't get them back SEVERAL TIMES.<P>Like a tape you are playing in your head.<P>I don't know your story, but for me too the betrayal came on top of years that my needs weren't being met. We both had empty love banks.<P>The Harleys said you can get it if you are willing to do work. Love is CREATED.<P>I wasn't sure, but was willing to try. Neither spouse can do ALL THE WORK for long. Recovery begins when both are trying.<P>Despite my lack of feelings, I did 80% of the work for many months while he pined for the bimbette. I did it for myself, I wanted that great marriage the Harleys said I could have.<P>I have no regrets. The feelings are better than ever for both of us.<P>I think it is those of us who almost lost our spouses that got the wake-up call. If your h never left, you may never have truly thought about life without him.<P>You are right, there are many WS on here, who waffle about working on their marriages. Are they happy, you think?<P>I personally could not have continued to "drift" in my marriage. I too had stayed for religious reasons, but not now. I am here now because I want to be.<P>For me it had to be full recovery (let's see if these Harleys are right?, what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, I work hard, but he will have strong feelings for me if I do leave him later, now he wouldn't mind at all...) OR tell him to pack and leave and not come back.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

We have a Facilitator in our area that who is certified through Dr. Harley's methods. He gives the seminars, the whole bit. I have read all his books and my H has read some.<P>My main obstacle is that the things that I feel I need my H can no longer give to me. That is why he says that I am having an affair with a fantasy.<P>This is what I "FEEL" I need:<P>I need for him to have never done this. <P>I need to be married to a man that had not ever committed adultery. <P>I need to be married to a man that never lied, deceived and betrayed me. <P>I need to have a relationship where there is a feeling of confidence that I can grow old or even maybe gain some weight and still be perceived as attractive. This was a major part of his affair.<P>I could have these things with someone else.<P>I cannot have this with him no matter what.<P>We didn't have a good marriage before. We had to start over from scratch. I would never initiate a relationship with a man like him.<P>Maybe I am unreasonable, but these are my obstacles. I don't want to feel this way and I fight it, but it just always creeps back.<P>It has been many years and it is still there lurking and waiting.

I think it was in "His Needs/Her Needs" chapter on affairs that Dr H. stated that not all marriages should be saved. If you have truly put forth the effort and things are not improving after so much time than maybe it is time to call it quits.

Fickled:<P>You're right. Your needs are unattainable in your current marriage. If those are really "needs". I doubt it---they seem to be more of a protection mechanism for you to not have to suffer again.<P>There are no guarantees in marriage, and I would advise you to ponder that carefully. I think if your love is truly dead for your husband, than you should definitely divorce. I'd still encourage you to try a different counselor first, because you still don't appear comfortable with divorce.<P>And if you do divorce, based on your list of "needs", I would strongly caution you against remarrying. There aren't a lot of perfect people on this planet, and you appear to have a low tolerance for mistakes.

I am a perfectionist, but I direct this at myself as much as to others.<P>I have learned a lot about myself through counseling over the years and feel that I am much more capable of handling a relationship correctly. I also completely admit many of our marriage problems were my fault and I failed in many ways to be the wife I needed to be.<P>My H has told me many times that I have become so much better at meeting his needs. I doubt that he will be able to handle the lack of emotional attachment indefinitely. I know that I am setting him up for having another affair if someone else steps in and provides him with the "love" that I cannot express to him.<P>This adds to my feeling of uncertainty and my lack of confidence and trust. I cannot provide for him the love he needs with any amount of sincerity. I haven't said "I love you" in well over a year. I know this is something he needs. Those words scare me to death. They were used by him so often with absolutely no meaning behind them. He would call me on the phone to tell me he wasn't going to be home for lunch, say "I love you", hang up and go to her house for lunch instead. I swore to never say those words again unless I felt them. He promised me the same. He doesn't say them very often, but I do believe him when he does.<P>So much of Plan A is "fake it til you make it". I can take care of him physically and even sexually and appease my conscience because it is an act. I can express tenderness and thankfulness because I do feel it, but to express love is a lie and I feel that would be wrong. I have worked on our marriage for years without wanting to with the hopes that in the process my feeling would return. They have not returned.<P>Although I do not suspect he is having an affair now, I know that I cannot give him what he needs to help him with the temptation of another affair, anymore than he can give me what I need.<P>His needs are even a little more realistic, but I cannot satisfy them. I cannot feel love for him, adoration, respect. The needs that rely on "Love". I can keep him sexually satisfied and take care of him physically, but not emotionally.<P>Being a perfectionist, I feel I should quit now rather than fail. Throw away the paper with the marks on them and get a brand new sheet, because even if you erase or use whiteout, the old mistakes is still there.<P>I just wish there was something I could do. Some other book I could read. Hypnosis, a better antidepressant, amnesia, shock therapy, frontal lobotomy. I want to spare my children the pain of a broken home, yet I want them to have the example they need to help them have a good marriage some day. Outwardly, my H and I can appear to be doing just fine. I take care of him. I bite my tongue most of the time. I don't talk badly of him to the children. I stress the importance of taking care of him to my children. I talk to them about the importance of meeting his needs. I am teaching them Harley's methods now.<P>I am living Harley's methods by Plan Aing, and except for my lack of expressions of love, I do okay most of the time.<P>I've faked it, but haven't made it.

You my dear, are not a perfectionist. A perfectionist does not set them self up to fail! Failing is not in a perfectionists vocabulary. They strive extra hard to make things perfect. K is right. You won't find another mate out there that won't let you down in some way at some time. Your hurt for what your husband did is very understandable but your not being able to forgive him will destroy you if you stay married. It will destroy you if you divorce. I know. I was the one that had an affair in my first marriage. My ex could not and will most likely never forgive me. Geez, it has turned him into a horrible human being. He is a miserable man that no longer has contact with his parents, friends, siblings or children. He picked a woman who is evil to the core and has decided to follow that. Please believe me, being unable to forgive and unable to except a person who is really trying to find love with you will only damage you. You picked your "needs" knowing full well that your husband can not live up to them. You did that for a reason. Those aren't your real needs, they are needs you came up with so that he could NOT pass them. If you really want out of that marriage then do it. There is no reason to stay in it and make BOTH of you miserable.

Fickled:<P>You're not living the Harley plan very well. You've completely thrown out a critical element---that of total honesty. You're not letting your husband how you feel, and by keeping this inside you, you deprive him of an opportunity for him to rebuild your love for him.<P>That's not going to be easy, but I think it's possible. Again, I encourage you to consider the phone therapy with Steve or Jenn Harley---they may have considerably more insight that what your counselor has by attending the faciliator training (which is pretty damn short, and focused on HN/HN). I counseled with Steve for over a year, consider myself a "MarriageBuilder" supporter (OK---everyone else says "zealot"), and when I talk with Steve on occasion, I'm still surprised at his insight.<P>I'm guessing that you don't really have those needs. What you have a need for is to keep your family intact, and to feel the wonderful love of a fulfilling marriage in which you can trust your husband. The pain of everything else will fade. This can happen, but it does take work, and with what you're doing now, you're not making progress and ruining your future chances by draining your lovebank dry.<P>Call Steve.

This is not a matter of forgiveness. It is a matter of acceptance.<P>Those two issues are definitely different.<P>I no longer hate or even blame him for what he did. I just can't accept it.

Yeah, my H the betrayer had to do all the work at first. And without the benefit of Harley or any other guidance. I just wanted a divorce--I kicked him out on d-day. Stubborn man camped out on our lawn. Let him back in on the third day out of pity.<P>After seeing how badly he wanted me and our marriage I started to just go thru the motions--felt I owed him that much. At least before I kicked his butt out again!<P>Couldn't say I love you, either. Then one day I accidentally just parroted it back to him (cause he never stopped saying it to me). You should have seen the look of joy on his face. (I kind of spoiled the effect by saying "$h!t!") And then I was able to think it but not say it. Then eventually I was able to say it--and mean it.<P>Now I'm the one doing all the studying of MB principles and basically running the show. Continually analyzing the state of our marriage and what needs to be done to keep it on track. H just wants to move forward and avoid any reference to the A/past as much as possible. But he's still very much committed and is afraid I'll still leave. He follows my lead for the most part.<P>He had to carry the load in the beginning. I was apathetic. Things have shifted around quite a bit since then. <P>Said the same exact things re: NEEDS--you stole my list!<P>I still have daydreams of leaving the marriage. Starting over with someone who would never love another. Someone without this nasty history. Someone faithful and true that I'd never have to be suspicious of. And I've had a VERY serious offer from someone who filled all those requirements you listed. But you know what--thinking that would be my fairytale relationship is a fantasy as well. I never thought my H would be capable of all this crap either. Whose to say this guys wouldn't eventually do the same or worse? <P>And sure, I'd enjoy the adoration but I know he'd bore me within a month. <P>And I don't think this guy could do an impersonation of a tellatubby singing a dirty song like my H can.... <P>Or pick up and swing around my 74 year old mother and make her giggle like a schoolgirl....<P>Or has teenage boys coming to his door asking if he can "come out and play". (I married the original Peter Pan!) <P>Fickle, doesn't your H have <I>any</I> redeeming qualities? Or is he just total pond scum? <P><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 04, 2000).]

My H does know how I feel. I have told him.<P>I want ya'll to understand that I do not "want" to feel this way.<P>I also don't like to have people question my feelings. How many times have I read here that we Own Our Feelings. No one can change the way we feel, only we can.<P>When I look at him I see a very handsome, fit man, that is a wonderfully selfless and attentive lover. He is a good provider with great future potential for providing much more. He is a father that criticizes and belittles too much, but realizes it and works on it. He is a man that puts up with my selfish periods and thrives on my unselfish ones.<P>But he is also a man that had unprotected sex with a very worldly woman over a period of years. This didn't just happen. He is far to controlled and controlling for that. He thought it out long and hard and made the decision that he needed to do this because it felt good. He needed to do this because it was something he hadn't done before. He had to keep it from me because she wouldn't be as good a housekeeper and would definitely not be a good example for his kids.<P>Yes there is still so much bitterness in me. I have told him how much it hurts me for him to try to control my feelings.<P>I also realize that if this marriage fails it will because I am unable to handle things the way they are. It will come about because of a failure on my part. He has really tried.<P>I hate to think that I am just a bad person. I am looking for ways to try to understand what my hangup it. If I could just say to myself "I love him again" and make it happen I would.<P>We can't afford Harley. We have spend ourselves to near bankruptcy trying to recover. We literally are not making the bills anymore and will probably have to let the bank foreclose soon. <P>Please try to understand that I hate this about me. I hear loathing in your posts and I loath myself too. I guess my H is right when he says that I am just not strong enough or a good enough person to get past it.

Fickle, I feel exactly like you do except I thought I had a very good marriage before his affair. I no longer respect him. If I were to meet him today I would not marry him. I would not marry a man who had an affair.<P>My therapist also tells me to fake it til you make. Boy am I faking! But I am also honest and he knows I am faking. <P>He wants so much for everything to be okay that he just keeps trying. I WILL not try for him, since I don't think I was ever doing anything wrong. He will tell you that too. What he won't explain is why he had the affair. His claims he doesn't know to most of the questions I ask. My therapist feels if he knew he wouldn't have done it. Unfortunately that is not working for me.<P>I am only not divorcing him now because of financial stability. If I get stronger through therapy or I win the lottery (lol) I am out of here. <P>This board is really for people who want to keep their marriage so there are not many people who seem to feel as we do. I keep reading hoping something will set off a lightbulb for me that will help me feel better. <P>I also accept but don't forgive. Can't imagine I ever will. And since it can't be undone, I don't know what to do. I can't honestly say I will even feel better divorced. I was still betrayed, whether I live with him or not.<P>Wish I could offer you words of wisdom. Just know you are not alone. S.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fickled Feelings:<BR><B>Being a perfectionist, I feel I should quit now rather than fail.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Let me say from one perfectionist to another, the only way you will fail is if you do divorce. No matter if you try your hardest or not, no matter if it is your fault or not, if the divorce goes thru you will feel like a failure. My first H physically and mentally abused me for 7 years. I divorced him and to this day, 16 years later, I believe I did the right thing. However, in my perfectionist mind, I have failed. I went into marriage with the same high ideals you have. My expectations were that my husband would never hurt me and I would be married forever. These expectations were way off as we are all human and we ALL make mistakes, including yourself. I am sure if you look back over your marriage you will see places where you have failed. That is why God places forgiveness high on the list of expectations from all of us. You have not forgiven your H and worst of all you have not forgiven yourself for not being able to have prevented this disaster.<P>If you are truly wanting to stay in this marriage and don't want divorce, you will give anything a chance, including forgiveness. Without it you will end up bitter and alone and your husband will go on to love another. Your forgiveness frees you to live, it does not let the other off the hook. <P>I will pray for you my friend. You are hurting and we all need compassion. God bless you. Starry-eyed<P>

No disrespect AT ALL but...<P>Do you ever feel that you are putting your <I>pride</I> before your marriage. It that pride more important to you than the vow you once made? <P>Oh God! I can hear it now (cause I do the same thing!). Didn't HE put ______ before HIS marriage, and wasn't that more important to him than his vow?! <P>But put him out of the equation for now--I'm asking <I>you</I> the question.<P>I ask because I've got TONS of pride. I'm the type that would gladly die a thousand deaths rather than say I'm sorry or forgive an insult. <P>I STILL pine for a perfect, unblemished relationship. I feel I deserve THE BEST. But I still take some responsibility for his unmet needs. I can even see myself doing something so unbelievable evil as having an affair if I'm feeling low enough in self esteem (I never thought I would say that--but then the opportunity fell in my lap 2 1/2 months after d-day!)<P>I still hate my H some days for what he did and the memories he has of her and has given me. But I grudgingly understand alot more than I ever did before. <P>How long has it been since d-day for both of you? Just curious. For me--oh, my gosh, yesterday was 4 months exactly and it didn't even dawn on me. First time I didn't know the hours, minutes and seconds since d-day!

It has been well over 2 years.<P>I feel I have forgiven. I wouldn't be able to even fake it if I hadn't. I just haven't accepted.<P>Part of me is staying because I know that he could not withstand the temptation of a relationship or marriage if we divorced and according to our beliefs, he would not be able to remarry. I would, he wouldn't. <P>That makes me feel as if I am somewhat responsible for his soul. Let's don't bogged down in over analysing that statement okay.<P>I care for him. I want him to be right with God. I want him to go to heavan. I have gotten past the stage where I want him to hurt or pay. I am way beyond that. I just can't open my heart to him. I fear that everything he does is for a selfish purpose. I feel that I would not have ever gotten the good stuff in our marriage if it hadn't been for his affair. I feel that I had to tolerate this ultimate selfishness in order to be loved by him. <P>I also fear that the moment he feels confident that I love him he will stop trying. Over and over this has happened. If I have a few upbeat weeks, he slacks off and starts ignoring, controlling and insulting. It makes it very hard to open up my heart.<P>

Fickled:<P>I wish that I had something magic to say to you that'd make you feel better, because I can see you struggling so hard for this. No loathing---frustration, perhaps, because this isn't going to be an easy situation for you to get through. But no loathing.<P>Somewhere on the website there are a list of books (NSR has compiled these). I'd encourage you to check out books on forgiveness, especially from Smedes or John Powell. I don't think you've really "forgiven" here---not because you don't want to, but perhaps because you don't know how.<P>Forgiveness was one of the key parts of my recovery from this. I was blessed with discovering it while I was separated from my wife, and before my wife's affair was over: it's what helped me accept her back after she became pregnant by the OM, and it allows me to see this child for the joy that he is, rather than a constant reminder of the pain. <P>I wish I knew how to help you find that forgiveness. I got "lucky"---perhaps some of these books can help you.

Fickle,<P>You posted while I was writing. I don't think you've fully forgiven. But I also don't think your husband has become a "model" Harley husband either---and I think he MUST start to do that, to regain your trust.<P>If you can't afford the counseling, would he come to this site? How about trying the "Five Steps to Romantic Love" workbook, which can be used as a self-study course?