I agree that there is a difference between forgiveness and acceptance. Acceptance comes when something is irreplaceably gone, and you decide to learn to live without it and go on.<P>I do understand your "need" to have had him never do this. Faithfulness is something you held dear, and he violated that. Your marriage will never again be "untainted", and that hurts very deeply. Despite the fact that my H never consumated his love for the OW, there are things in my marriage that I will never have back either. There are things in my life that I would give my right arm and more to have back.<P>But, at some point, you have to accept that it is gone. Your choice then is to move on..either in your marriage or without it. <P>You do sound depressed, and I;m glad that is being treated. But you also sound like someone who has not been allowed to fully grieve the loss you've had. I think your H needs to first let you grieve for what you've lost. I hope this doesn't sound too off-base, but it sounds like he has been so busy working on things, maybe he isn't willing to let that happen...he should not be telling you your vision of an untainted marriage is just a fantasy. Of course, no marriage is wholly untainted, so in a sense he is right...but the loss of that perfect vision is still a loss, and requires mourning before you can move on, whether in your marriage or not.<P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi<P><BR>

Fickle,<P>As far as the financial situation. You need to file backruptcy as soon as possible. Dont tlet them take your home. You can file bankruptcy and keep it. <P>I have several attorneys in my family. You can get yourself out of that mess. You need to seek legal advice and get out of that. Dont worry about the credit history. You can rebuild it later.<P>As far as the way that you feel about your H. I am the betrayer. I felt the very same way. I felt no love for my H at all. You canread my post since January. <P>The only reason I hung out was because of what God said. Till death do you part. People done this all over the old testament. So I thought. What the heck they done it. I can to. I dont have any children. I know I would have not even given it as an option.<P>I just hit my knees and gave it to God. He has helped in this house tremendously.<BR>PRAISE YOU LORD!!!!! <BR>Thank GOd I hung on!!!!<BR>Prayers<BR>Renee<BR><P>------------------<BR>We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!

<BR>********************************************<BR>I agree that there is a difference between forgiveness and acceptance. Acceptance comes when something is irreplaceably gone, and you decide to learn to live without it and go on.<BR>********************************************<P>I can't make that decision. That is where I am. It was just too important to me because it was all I had for so many years. I had no love, no importance, no happiness. All I had was the false belief in fidelity. Now I have nothing, not even that.<P>I'm more down today. Not a good day.<P><BR>

Fickle Feelings,<P>I guess I will weigh in with a different opinion of your problem. It isn't that you are a perfectionist, nor that you haven't or cannot forgive. You gave the reason in one of you posts above.<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I also fear that the moment he feels confident that I love him he will stop trying. Over and over this has happened.<BR>If I have a few upbeat weeks, he slacks off and starts ignoring, controlling and insulting. It makes it very hard to open up my heart.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems to me your problem is much simpler and can be fixed. You have erected walls to protect yourself, such as unattainable goals for you H to meet. I suspect what you really want is an H that is a consistent loving H, not one that goes back to the old days.<P>You won't open up until he can show you constant love. You know Fickel Feelings I would show this whole thread to your H but particularly you post that contains the quoted sentences above.<P>I hate to be simple minded but it seems to me the solution to your problem resides in your H's behavior, not your perfectionism, your forgiveness. You are plain and simple protecting yourself, because he does go back to his old ways. He may not even be aware of it. <P>It is time for a serious talk with him and hopefully a counselor.<P>Hope this helps and<P>God Bless,<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited August 05, 2000).]

My first reply, of course, will be to Fickled Feelings. Let me tell you about your feelings; you only think you own your feelings. The truth of the matter is; you need to give all your feelings, especially the bads ones, to God. Then and only then will you be in touch with FEELINGS. And if you think that you can sustain true happiness without God, you are sadly mistaken.<P>Take a moment out of your day/night and make a connection with God, be honest with HIM. Lay all your feelings out on the table, and ask that he take all your feelings of anger, vengence, etc. and return them to you in the form of love, forgiveness, mercy, etc. <P>I don't know what your spiritual level is, or if you have any spirituality, at all. My best recommendation would be to start with the Bible, confessing to God, and letting HIM work HIS will in you. You have to stop trying to control the situation. You're in need of help beyond the extreme costs of therapists. GOD's help is FREE. Just open your heart to HIM and you will soon understand what I am saying. GOD has worked wonderful things in my life since I've taken a stand for my marriage, even though I was the one that betrayed my H. I had to let go of my guilt, (that now sits at the feet of Jesus). I had to confess my feelings to God, about my anger, because my husband doesn't want to work very hard on recovery. I had to confess my own sins so that I could be forgiven my the Lord, first. Than I was able to forgive myself. Now I'm working on prayer, for my husband. Prayer that the Lord will soften his heart, and open his ears & eyes and see that if even a ember of love burns within the two of us, with dedication to that Love and commitment to the Lord, HE will make things possible. But understand one thing, even with the Lord to guide you through, you may still go through some very rough times before the better times make their appearance. Patience!<P>Hope this is not too much for you to comprehend. If I offended you in any way, please let me know. In the meantime, I'll pray that the Lord finds his way into your heart so that you may find some peace and joy in your remaining days on this earth.<P>Sincerely,<BR>HD<P><BR>The next part of this post is going out to "Summertime". Since I know that you have already read my reply to FF, and I have read yours, here's some advice from me to you. An affair occurs, because something is lacking. NEEDS are NOT being MET. You have the same attitude as my husband, whom I betrayed. I am taking a very strong stand, in the name of the LORD, to bring our marriage into recovery. The bottom line is: It takes TWO to make it, and TWO to break it. The sooner you can admit and accept that (maybe you should change therapists, cuz I can't agree with your current one). If you can't forgive your H, you will never have TOTAL happiness for the rest of your life, NEVER. Your inability to forgive will eat you up like Cancer. Take it from me, it is stated, that way, many times in the GOOD BOOK. Speaking of book, I can offer you a great one, to read. It's called Infidelity, The Forgiveable Sin. It really opened my eyes, as the betrayer. Maybe it will open yours as the betrayed. I only hope that someday, my husband, can be educated by the knowledge that I gained from that book. I will pray that the Lord, continue to have mercy on you and your H. Maybe, a miracle will occur, someday.<P>Sincerely,<BR>HD

HD:<P>I recognize that you were trying to be helpful with words to Summertime, however I must point that affairs are not necessarily about unmet needs.<P>There are numerous causes of affairs: Mid-Life crisis, sex and love addiction,<BR>various mental disorders, and the "Ijust wanted to know what it felt like to have sex with someone else/ego stroking/it was fun affair. Many betrayers readily admit that what their spouses did or didn't do played no part in their decison to have an affair.<P>Also everybody heals in their own way and in their own time. Summertime and Fickled Feelings I am sure will heal eventually .

HD, I could tell you were the betrayer. Perhaps your needs were not met but did you ever tell your husband. <P>I thought my marriage was fine. My husband kept his unmet needs from me. He CHOSE to keep his problems to himself and he CHOSE to go outside the marriage to solve HIS problems. That is a true betrayal. I think if there are obvious problems in a marriage and a couple can't solve them together, you get a divorce and move on. If one member of the marriage is having problems, it is up to them to go to their spouse. Most of us are not mind readers. But if you decide to go outside your marriage before a divorce, your are an adulterer/adulteress and there is no way the betrayed spouse should take any blame for THE BETRAYER's choice. How we each deal with it is personal but the bottom line is the Betrayer made a choice.<P>My marriage will always be tainted now. And so will all the others on this board. As someone else said it has to be accepted. It can never be undone. <P>I hope you and your spouse are both able to achieve what you want. S.

HD, if your needs were not being met, odds are your H's needs weren't either. Did he go out and have and affair? The needs issue perhaps mitigates your affair, but don't place blame on h for not meeting your needs. While having the affair you were not meeting his, but he didn't betray you.<P>Work harder on understanding why he is in pain and why he is struggling with forgiveness. Empathy from you is the key. Forgiveness is much easier to say than it is to feel... He will continue to have great difficulty as long as you appear defensive. <P>I always understood that forgiveness is in my best interests, but that did not make it happen any easier. It has been a slow process, and each time my h became impatient set me back measurably.<P>I think that the more you can do to help him the better you will feel about yourself. It will help you in handling the guilt you probably feel. I hope that you and your H will be able to work through this.