I had an interesting and unsettling discussion with my H and one of his friends tonight.<P>Apparently, going to a strip club and even having a "lap dance" is not cheating, although the friend said that if a guy does that all the time, he would consider it cheating (but not if it's just once in a while). It's all "just entertainment"! HAH!!!<P>Anyway, I think that this conversation has made me realize that one of the reasons I'm not healing or recovering from my H's affair is because I get the feeling that he thinks screwing another woman is no big deal and that I should just "get over it".<P>Could it be that he thinks of sex as just being "entertainment"? Can he have changed so much from the man who once told me that sex didn't mean anything without the love behind it? Or, maybe he hasn't changed...sex without love isn't the same thing as cheating because it doesn't mean anything?<P>Oh, yeah, and when I said jestingly that I was going to a Chippendale's show, he said that wouldn't be any different from men going to a strip joint. True, but what got me was when I said that a man doing a "lap dance" for a woman (do they do such things??) would not be the same as a woman doing a lap dance for a man, he insisted that if I believed that, I wasn't "human". I told him it wouldn't be the same because the physiology is different. And, I also told him that the sight of a man's naked body didn't affect most women the way a woman's naked body affected men...that just the sight of a d*** didn't make most woman want to fall into bed with the guy. He told me that I didn't know what I was talking about. So, apparently, he thinks that I just melt (or should) with desire at the sight of his naked body (maybe that's why he doesn't particularly like doing foreplay so much...maybe he thinks it should be unnecessary?)<P>Anyway, I'm feeling rather unsettled by this discussion. If my husband really feels like sex is just "entertainment", I don't think I'll ever be able to trust him again. BTW, he wasn't raised to believe this. I truly believe that his father never even THOUGHT about cheating on his mom.<P>Do any of y'all wonder about how your spouses view sex in general? Do they think it is just a SPORT???? UGH!!!

I asked about this in the very first post I wrote to the forum. I have an extremely difficult time getting over the fact that my husband had intercourse with another woman. To me, it was something very sacred that he violated. It disturbs me very much that some people see sex as a recreational activity, or--whatever.<P>I am by no means some kind of prude or have an obscure psychosis about sex. In fact, I was sitting down with my 5-yo and 9-yo kids just today, who had an anatomy book open, and we had a very frank talk about body parts and where babies come from, ect. I think it is important to teach children the facts from the beginning, no "mysteries" or "someday we'll have that talk." Not like I was raised. Sex should not be a intrigue. Not secret, but sacred. It should be private, not made for entertainment.<P>I think that I am going to get so completely wrapped aroung the axle discussing this, it upsets me so much. So I will quit early on.<P>But I must express that I feel that sex between a man and woman is a beautiful, fantastic thing when there is a commitment and vow to be lifelong partners. It brings joy, and a physical bond between people who love each other most in this life. I look at my kids and understand that love with their father brought them into the world.<P>Now I see that the same activity conducted to conceive our children was the same activity that he enjoyed with someone else--for the very reason that she COULDN'T have children. That was a big plus, her infertility. It meant endless fun and games for them. Her body and his, just for sh*** and giggles.<P>I hate pornography and now all the sudden, he sees nothing wrong with it. Our C drive is filled with nasty pictures. I think that things like porn, dirty movies, strip clubs put ideas into guy's heads, maybe just into the subconscience, like: "women are so available," "so very many women, so little time," "why won't my wife do 'that?'" "women are like gum, you chew it for awhile, it starts to loose it's flavor" "women like to do stuff like that" ect.<P>Okay, some women, too. I am hammering guys here. Some guys do very well to control those stallion urges. Some girls are the predatory creatures.<P>It's like opening the door just a crack to take a peek. But once you got that door open, you're lured into bigger things. I firmly believe that porn is just the seed planted that grows into something bigger--infidelity.<P>I am sorry if I am preaching. Some of you might disagree with me, and if you do, pardon. I feel strongly about this.

Bernzini,<BR> I see that you feel the same way I do.<P> I've pretty much worked through H's fling with the STD Tramp, since he finally did admit that to me. I don't believe, however, that it was the only time he cheated. I still believe that he had something going on with Cafe Woman, but he refuses to admit it.<P> I can't see any difference between responding to a "lap dance" (how can a man NOT have a physical response to it?) and responding to some whore rubbing up against him in a bar (as he apparently did with the STD Tramp). Did my H consider that as "just entertainment"? His attitude indicates that he did (and probably still does).<P> So, any of you guys out there care to respond???<p>[This message has been edited by Sweetpea (edited August 05, 2000).]

Guy strippers don't actually "lap dance", they more shove it in your face and wiggle it around. Seriously. I've been to a couple "strip shows" with the gals I worked with at the time. It was mostly curiousity because I'd never been. Based on my response to the men there, one in particular who nuzzled my neck and told me I smelled nice, I decided that I'd best not go back again. It's too much temptation. I don't mind if H goes once or twice, since he's never been either, but if it got to be more than that I would definitely worry. As for the sex being just for fun, I do know men like that exist. I was on another message board and had quite an interesting discussion with a man who seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with any female he felt like it with. I feel sorry for his wife. Sad but true. Thank God my H sees sex for what it is, only a way to show each other that we love each other. He doesn't want it with anyone else, because his fling with OW showed him what he really had waiting at home.

Yeah, maybe I AM an old church lady, the thing is, ol boy had no hesitation about getting into bed with me right after he was with The Joker. He is in the military, he has to take the semi-anual AIDS test, but I sure as heck know that he didn't have one before he was romantic with me. I don't want someone else's cooties.<P>About a month after he resumed with me, my stuff was on fire, it lasted for about 2 months and then went away. Had I the slightest inkling that he had been with another woman, I would have had it checked out. I have no idea what it was. Hopefully, that's all it was, just cooties.<P>I could kill!!!! him for this. When I told him, he was just nonchalant-"Well, uh, I'm, uh, okay, so uh, I don't know what you're talking about."<P>Playin with my health and life is a big no-go.

ktgirl,<BR> I have absolutely no idea what happens at a Chippendale's, but I have to admit that I'm curious. Do I think I would be tempted at one of those shows? Well, I might enjoy it, but I've never been attracted to men who, right off the bat, come on to me sexually. I've had guys "come on" to me, but never even was tempted. I always put them in their place and told my H about it. It's always bothered me that he never got mad at the few of his so-called friends for coming on to me. One of them, however, told H to take good care of me, 'cause I was a lady through and through. Now, HE might could tempt me NOW (because of what he said about me)---if we weren't both married!! 'Course, now, he's over 65...but he still looks good! <P>Even if I was divorced, I don't think I could sleep with another man....actually, I'd say I WOULDN'T. It's just totally against my beliefs...and totally ingrained into me from my upbringing. Heck! I held out against my H until we were married , and I didn't have nearly the strength of character that I think I have now!<P> It just bugs the heck out of me that my H has such a cavalier attitude about extramarital sex.<P>Oh, and Bernzini! My H did bring me home an STD...trichomonas, and LIED about it for over 13 YEARS!!<P>[This message has been edited by Sweetpea (edited August 07, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Sweetpea (edited August 07, 2000).]

It wasn't actually chippendales, but it's definitely different. One of the guys took my friend's glasses and put them on his g-string right over his stuff. He got up in my bosses lap and put it right in her face, and we got pictures of all of that. I wasn't actually married at this time, so I guess that's where the temptation came in. He didn't approach me, I did him, because he had beautiful long hair, and I just wanted to run my fingers through it. As I did that, that's when he nuzzled, and my neck has always been a sensitive area, if you know what I mean. I'd obviously had way too much to drink, because I'm not the type to approach any man like that. Good thing I gave it up!!!! Coulda got me in a lot of trouble. LOL

SweetPea,<P>I believe that anytime sex is reduced to merely being a form of entertainment that "anyone" can provide, something very beautiful has been lost in a marriage.<P>I certainly DO believe that a lap dance with a stripper is cheating. Geeze, alot of these guys actually reach orgasm during these "dances". <P>I also believe that anytime a man (or woman) is willingly aroused by someone other than their spouse, it's cheating and this includes those guys who masterbate to centerfolds, and also those who fantasize about someone else while making love to their spouse. It all boils down to cheating the way that I see it. By the way, in reading (and from on-air listening) to Dr. Harleys's stuff, apparently he feels the same way too.<P>I am no prude, and in fact have really messed up my life at times due to my own immoralities, but I can tell you that the joy that comes from truly being faithful to one another (including mental faithfulness) is a true blessing that provides a sense of security that makes you feel lighter than a feather!!! <P>I just pray that my husband and I can continue to give each other this beautiful gift of security and love--as each of us have had unfaithful times in our married life which only brought us tremendous agony. <P>I appreciate the posts you gals have written, Sweetpea, Bernzini, and ktgirl, because I can personally relate to much of it. Good luck to all of us who have had to deal first-hand with this shallow view of something as beautiful as sex.<BR>Binkie

I actually should clarify something, after reading my last post, it may have sounded like I actually did something with the dancer. No way. I went home to the old man, and boy did we have a night!!!!!! My H always says, "I don't care where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home!"LOL!