Well, I'm sure you're all going to take this as NEGATIVE as you possibly can, but I'm telling you in advance that it is not meant that way...<P>As far as being of the "Moving on Variety" I would think that the H's who are so able to put this thing behind them so quickly... will be just as able to pick it up and begin it again... Just as easily... I'm not so sure I would be so quick to believe it is really over that "quick and easily"...<P>As for NoMas and the rest.. they are HERE, WORKING, on their problem, sharing with you the pain and reality of withdrawls... struggling and fighting to get through it and I am pretty sure they would rather not be there, going through that place at all... but yet, YOU are the ones that learn from it... We ALL learn from it...<P>But the point is... They are RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT... they are not through it yet... but working on it... and hopefully one day, they will be to the place where they can honestly say, "what what I thinking?" <P>The betrayers here who share what happens with them, are learning tools for you, the betrayed. If we weren't here to tell our stories and our side of things and the feelings we have.. you would just talk back and forth to each other whinning and complaining about your spouses, hugging each other and consoling each other... (for which you have every right to do) and possibly never get to the point where you truly understand what can go on in the mind of a betrayer and what we are doing to get back to the place we belong....<P>As peppermint said...<BR>"Some betrayers are so caught up in their own self-righteous "suffering" that they can't even begin to give the spouse they betrayed the help needed to deal with the tragedy of infidelity."<P>Although what the betrayed did is wrong... this statement can work both ways... Learn from what you read.... and understand the betrayers side and work together with it... as we learn how the betrayed feel and work together with it...<P>

O.K. Lacee, <P>Since you mentioned my name, I'll go first.<P>Your opening comment about being certain of "our" negativity was not appropriate. Just as much as anyone here, I learn from most posts and try to see both sides. I often respond to betrayeds and betrayers and try to be sympathetic and helpful. I see many betrayers here who truly are trying to save their marriages, and basically are very good people who made a horrible mistake.<P>I am terribly hurt by my husband's betrayal, but I don't feel the need to respond to everyone here by repeating that hurt over and over, nor do I feel the need to minimize anyone else's problems by maximizing my own.<P>Let me be blunt. I do not personally believe that NoMas is seriously working on his marriage. I think he uses this site to stay connected to the other woman, whom he met through this forum, and to satisfy himself that he is doing "something" in the name of rebuilding his marriage. I find his entire demeanor to be abrasive, condescending, and self-righteous. I am offended that this "minister" broadcasts his "love" for the OTHER WOMAN here on a daily basis, while continuing to relate that his wife just doesn't understand him or give him what HE needs. The thought that members of his congregation might actually come to him for marital counseling appalls me. NoMas tends to launch personal attacks on ANYONE who disagrees with his desire to constantly let everyone here, INCLUDING THE OW, know about his "love" for her. <P>Now, those are MY feelings and I have a right to have them. I know that some betrayeds have said that reading his posts gives them an insight into their spouse's minds, but that might not be correct. And I doubt that any betrayed person would appreciate their spouse writing what NoMas does, but not sharing it with them.<P>There are thousands of betrayed spouses who read these posts everyday. What if reading those posts makes some of them completely give up hope? Why is his constantly posting how much he "loves" the OW here, knowing that she reads it, more acceptable than him calling her on the phone everyday and telling her?<P>Because a majority of the posters here are of the betrayed variety, we empathize more with Mrs. NoMas than we do with him. Perhaps his comments create a fear within us that our spouse is doing the same thing- claiming that they are working to save our marriage while actually maintaining a connection to the OP. For whatever reason, NoMas brings out the worst in some of us. He knows that, and I think he actually enjoys envoking those feelings in us and then criticizing us for having them. He certainly enjoys having other posters praise and defend him.<P>I have been here for quite a while. When NoMas first started posting, I responded and tried to be encouraging. But in those many months since then, there has been no change in his "story", therefore no progress. He is at a standstill, and it does concern me that he might have the same affect on some of the "newbies" who come here without realizing his history.<P>I don't paint all betrayers with the same brush, please don't depict all betrayeds the same way.<P>Peppermint

Amen, Peppermint!<P>I am the betrayer and I see the same things that you do. I have even posted to NoMas, trying to have him look through that fog and he is stuck. He chooses to be stuck, long for the OW and not work on his marriage. No matter how he is told, he cannot hear the message. Even when Forrest posted similar things, he was shocked that it sounds the same, but he cannot move forward. Enough said about him, since he refuses to move forward.<P>Lacee, <P>We know how frustrating it is, being the minority. However, some betrayers are just looking for excuses and justifications, under the guise of venting. We both know what is appropriate to our marriage's recovery and what is not. Plus, most of the posting to NoMas is trying to help him recover his marriage, help him get unstuck. Help him ease his pain, by challenging the way he views things, don't ya think? <P>Lora, <P>Please do not get discouraged. I am sorry we are taking over your thread.

And I say "Amen" to you, too, Peppermint.<P>I am still new here, I have only been here for a couple of weeks, and I have gotten a lot of valuable insight from both sides of the story. It helps to know. I am so thankful for that. If I was ever offended, I wouldn't come here.<P>I too, show my friendship and support for those who have betrayed their marriage and want to find some resolution. Just as I love my husband, who has betrayed me, I offer friendship to those who need it when they are confused and filled with guilt and pain. <P>It hurts, I see it, I know it, I have experienced it first hand. I have been there myself. It is one of the most difficult things in life to overcome, I believe, letting go of someone you love.<P>But there is such a thing as wallowing in self-pity, self-doubt, whining and bellyaching. It helps no one.<P>What it comes down to, there is a place where you turn around and start to get a grip on things. You start to heal. And mend your ways.<P>If you, despite everyone's support, advise, and guidance, really just want to whine and have people feel sorry for you, then you have come to the wrong place for sympathy. <P>This is not what Marriage Builders Forum is about. It's about moving on and healing, whatever the case may be, not lamenting and feeling sorry for yourself and getting others to feel sorry for you.<P>I believe that this is what the majority of people want when they come here--a listening ear and some guidance and to know that they are not alone. A few want the listening ear, but it's just to moan and carry on and vent their poison. <P>Like I said, this does not help anyone, especially those who need hope in rebuilding their marriage.<P>Am I mean, or what?<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited August 07, 2000).]

Peppermint, <P>May I co-sign your post? <BR>But I never considered he was posting for his OW's benefit! That's creepy, NoMas!<P><B>Lacee</B>,<P> Please refer to NoMas' "To betrayed's: Ever feel like throwing in the towel?" thread. <P>In fact, do a search on ALL his threads and posts. I believe you will have first hand observation of a man truly stuck in a hell of his own making--who continually slaps--no--chooses to ignore the hand of those trying to pull him up. Worse yet--sometimes he'll try and grab your hand to pull you down! Posts like "throw in the towel" is one such blatant attempt.<P>We learn alot from Betrayers, I agree with you there. I think Forest is one we might learn alot from. He posts from an honest place within himself--the man that he was before his affair.<P>The only think I've learned from NoMas was how delusional they can be. Oh, and how important having a sense of humor is. But I continue to love and pray for him. And also his ever suffering W. She has no clue what she needs to do and he knows but won't help her. He keeps all the information WE know from her. She doesn't stand a snowballs chance in <I>his</I> hell! <P> IF he ever makes it into recovery--he will be the Number One Betrayer Poster Boy! It is a wish of mine. To quote him, "*sigh*".<P>IF your theory of late-blooming-recovered-betrayers is correct, NoMas will RUN AWAY SCREAMING if another woman ever looks at him sideways. <P>And you better believe he's reading this thread right now. <P>Hugs and kisses, NoMas! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 07, 2000).]