My H is at a family reuinion in another state with our kids. I am at home with the ailing old dog (long story).<P>The only thing I asked H to do when he was away was to personally watch our 4 year old if she went in the water. She has a fear of the water since she took off her water wings and jumped in and promply started sinking in a friend's pool. I was sitting right there and my oldest daughter grabbed her by the time she was an inch under, but it was a horrible sight. I know that makes me a little paranoid, which is of course irrational, but she really has been fearful, too. He said OK.<P>Tonight when they called, 4 year old bubbles over telling me how she went under the water. She actually seemed happy about it. I still do not know circumstances, but it must have been a controlled by choice go under.<P>I then talked to my H and nicely asked him what she was talking about. He didn't know because he wasn't there! He didn't even know if she had her new tighter fitting (impossible for her to get off) water wings on. He wasn't even sure who was with her, although he though his sister was. His sister is very responsible, but the reason I wanted HIM to be with her is I wanted someone totally focused on her when she was in the water.<P>OK, I guess I LB'ed a bit, although I never raised my voice and only asked why he didn't follow my one request when he said he would. He started some story about how situations are not always that easy. Yes, that is true, but I suspect the only other thing he possibly had to do was take a nap. Didn't even say that. Asked something like "If you did not think that this request was reasonable or that it would be possible, why did you say you would do it? Why didn't you object or try to modify the request? Total silence, followed finally by "This could take an hour or more to discuss." This translates to I am not going to talk about this. He uses this line to cut off most conflict resolution. The disrespectful judgement on my part that followed went something like this: "I think you tell me whatever I want to hear and then go off and do whatever you want to do, IF you even remembered you even said this to me. I would not do this to you. I do not say one thing and then do another." More silence. Finally when I really began wondering if we were still connected he said. "Anything else?"<P>Anyway, he did agree to call me when he gets back. He was going to visit with his Uncle for awhile since Uncle is leaving in the morning.<P>I hate for us to be apart and be so tense. My questions:<P>Is this a guy thing? Or is he avoiding conflict? Is this a big deal or am I blowing it way out of porportion.<P>Even if you think my request was unfair or dumb, I think the larger issue is that he agreed and then didn't follow through and then refused to even acknowledge that this was a problem. <P>I know I am quite the stickler for honesty. I am with myself and my kids. They know I can tolerate almost anything but dishonesty. In fact to prove that, I taught them early on that whatever they did, if they came and told me, they would not be punished. They may have to follow through on the natural consequence (which I usually help them with, like cleaning up), but they are hugged and told that I am so happy that they told the truth. So far it seems to be working perfectly for my girls...not so well for my H.<P>Any great thoughts that I can use immediately?

Hi FHL,<P>Working late tonight and thought I would drop in. You know just because someone doesn't do something you want or the way you want, that doesn't mean they are being dishonest. You seem to like the word dishonest, but I do wonder tonight if that is the word you are really looking for.<P>Quite frankly maybe it is a guy thing. But I must tell you I am not a conflict avoider, believe me when I tell you that, and I would have done just what your H did. I would have let you blow off steam on something, that you know nothing about, and then not even gone there. Cannot even argue about it when one side knows so little, it is just a lost arguement. <P>He probably thought/thinks your D was well watched, had a ball, and got over her fear of being under water. Further, she was watched the whole time and probably had her ironclad vest on to boot. What is the problem??? This is probably a guy thing. <P>I will not make excuses for your H because I know just slightly less than you do about the situation. But your D, obviously has gotten over her fear of water and is very happy about that. The only way that can happen is if she does go under water. She probably did it because her relatives (the kids) were doing it. And if it isn't scary to them then it isn't to her either. <P>I would also bet that your H didn't just leave her alone at the pool. Some reponsible adult was there and obviously was watching her. I know you think your H is clueless and he might be, but I don't think he is clueless enough to recklessly endanger his daughters life.<P>Please think about this. You know you cannot run his life for him. Would you enjoy it if he told you exactly how to raise the kids, what to feed them, and expressed deep concern about you ability to keep them safe, while driving them places, taking them to the pool, whatever? I don't think so. I know this is a woman thing as well. <P>My wife wants things done around the house, but they have to be done her way. My response is fine, do it yourself. I am not a conflict avoider. If I am going to do the laundry or cook a meal, I expect the same courtsey that I give her. I don't tell her what to do or how to do it and I don't expect that type of guidance either. I will say if I don't know how to do something I do ask. <P>I guess you are getting the idea by now that you might have hit a touchy point. And I know you worry about you children. But FHL you know this stuff so well and you give such good advice, surely you see, what you are doing? You are unhappy, your H is unhappy, and all that happen is that your D had a great time. Does this make sense?<P>Think about it and take care, you are such a good lady.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hmmmm, can't really negotiate on something that has already happened. I guess you're going to have to just let the incident go and praise God that you're little girl has a guardian angel.<P>I'm mentally having your H die a thousand deaths. I feel exactly how you do--but would have really lost my cool. Still, it's because I'm using a judgement against him...no matter what excuse he could possibly have. Nothing would be worth the safety of my 4 yr old daughter, if I was so blessed to have one. But we are not "allowed" to use a judgement here. So we must vent that anger away from our H's and maybe negotiate for a future swimming experience. POJA. <P>Did you ever come to a MUTUAL decision about your daughter being monitored in the water? Or was it (sorry!) a demand of yours? (It's a basic bloody LAW to protect your babies as far as I'm concerned but we're talking Harley here!)<P>Maybe that's why he only gave you lip service.<P>Next conversation you may want to apologise for being judgemental (I'm chewing on a stick as I write these words!) without going into how HE was responsible for upsetting you, let him now that you felt (you choose a milder word) upset, disappointed, angry at the time. The I'll lend you my stick to chew on so you don't scream when he gives you his reasons/excuses or denials. Then take the stick out and try and POJA.<P>Aloha,<P>L<P>Did that help? Ok, now I need somebody to talk ME down!<P> <P>

Dear FaithLoveHope,<P>I'm going to most likely stick my foot right into my mouth here, but you made an open request. But, for the record; I will state that I am a father hen. Which means I worry over my kids, I have to know where they are when they are in my care; even if my W and I are both watching them.<P>I wouldn't say that your H was trying to anger you or disrepect your opinion. I would say that he felt with his sister there, your children were in good care. Maybe even better care than with him there. We all have strengths and weaknesses, seems like child care isn't one of his strengths. Also, maybe he doesn't worry over the kids like you bc he may feel that you fuss too much over them.<P>What ever the reason, he was the parent with the responsibility at that time and it was his decision to make. But, that doesn't relinquish him of not keeping a promise to you.<P>But on the other hand, did you give him the opportunity to discuss "why" you wanted this promise and allow him the freedom to disagree.<P>It seems like there is a communication gap here....you say it, he agrees and then does it another way.<P>Personally, I get miffed when my W states the obvious to me concerning child-care. I've done well for almost 5 years without a major incident and when she tells me some thing that I know bc I feel she doesn't trust my judgement, I usually say jokingly, "Duh, I'm smarter than I look, or I haven't lost one yet." That usually prompts her to laugh and actually complement me on my parenting skills. Do you ever complement your H on his parenting skills?<P>She tends to worry more than me and I allow them to do some things she fears....but, she and I have discovered that these differences have to do with the way we were raised. We have also agreed to disagree over how to care for the kids; but, we always try to reach a compromise.<P>My W and I still have heated discussions concerning the kids....but, we both have confidence in the other's parenting skills.<P>Although in a marriage, the wife usually assumes her skills are best and the husband has to prove his. But, like any thing else that requires skill building, it takes practice and positive feed back.<P>As far as him breaking the promise, I think that is worthy of a discussion. But only if you allow him to explain the situation and that you create a non-confrontive environment for this talk.<P>Well, blast me if I'm way out of line. Just giving opinions.<P>Hang in There!<P>ps<P>He must do fairly well with the kids for you to allow him to go away alone with them. So, there must be some real positives to his parenting skills. Build him up before confronting the issues. And don't accuse, just explain your feelings.

My God, this is a guy thing! My H and I just talked about your story and he's siding with your H and JL.<P>I guess guys can't be maternal. If they carried them for nine months and went thru labor, maybe they'd see their children's safety as something slightly more important than socializing.<P>More judgements.<P>I'm making an appointment for my H's vasectomy tomorrow! <BR>

Leilana,<P>Your poor H. Actually, it is a guy thing. It is why we are needed in raising children. We permit and even encourage "risks" that our W's wouldn't permit. But we know something you W's won't abmit, we know they will be on their own soon enough and they must learn how to handle situations. Having two teenagers and a 20 year old, I am constantly amazed at the difference between W and I. Although I had much more experience with children than she did when we were married. I have a younger brother a decade and half younger and as the oldest I got to take care of him as well as my younger sisters.<P>But I do worry about the children always have, but in different ways than my W. I allow them to fail, I expect them to handle the teachers when they are having problems. I will step in only after they have exhausted all of their resources. I expect them to challenge themselves, but yes I do watch them or make sure that someone who is compenent is watching them.<P>If you really want to see the difference, see how many women freak out getting the first baby sister for their children. Men don't. We want to know the baby sitter is compenent, and will make sure they know how to reach them, but after that you must let go.<P>So yeah, this is definitely a guy thing. And I thought nowhereman expressed it very well.<P>Well, good night and God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS We not only worry about the children's safety, heck we even worry about our W's safety, especially when out a night. <p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited August 07, 2000).]

JL...gotta love you. I was really hoping you'd see this. I am reasonably sure that you described my H's mindset. I never thought he deliberatly was trying to hurt me, but I get really tired of requesting something, having it agreed on, then just brushed off. It irked me before the affair and it is a real trigger for me post affair. <P>My H is a wonderful father and is great with the kids. However, I think he over estimates how capable they are and assumes everything will be OK. Actually for as safety minded he has to be at work (Nuke Plant), he really isn't when it comes to kids, pets, etc. For instance, a few weeks ago I found a small bowl of anti-freeze on the garage floor and we have 4 cats and two dogs. Duh. Although I do like to be "on top" of what my kids are doing, I honestly don't think anyone would label me as over protective. In fact many can not believe everything my H does with the kids, like rock climbing. I basically do not like to limit any activity my child wants to be involved in, but I do require that the activity be done as safely as reasonable possible...like biking with bike helmets.<P>I will even concede my request could be viewed was unreasonable and short-sighted. I was just concerned in the festive highly active atmosphere that my 4 year old could easily get overlooked for a minute, and I witnessed last year how devasting that one minute could be. Add in her fear and I didn't want her fear to be increased by another bad experience. I wanted her to take swimming lessons this summer, but the scheduling could not work out.<P>However, if he thought my ONE request, not a laundry list, was not feasible, he should not have agreed. I outlined my reasoning, so he knew my concerns. I even said I know your sister, mom, etc...are normally responsible, but considering all the distraction and activity, I just would be much more comfortable with daughter having one on one supervision. He agreed.<P>JL...I never give my H a to do list, never even comment on how he does tasks and rarely ask anything of him. I am not a perfectionist or a control freak. I do not even attempt to run his life. After the affair I like to know where he is (and he is accountable), but other than that he completely makes up his own schedule and unless I really have a time conflict, I schedule all else around it.<P>I learned to pretty much leave my H to pursue anything he wanted whenever he wanted and to do anything he wanted to do any way he wanted to do it. I had those lessons down early in the marriage. In fact I pride myself on my non demanding, non nagging approach.<P>On the other hand, although my H rarely gives me care instructions for the kids, he is continually coaching me on how to do everything better. He once years ago called me away from something I was doing to show me how to get a glass of milk poured with one less motion. Really he did. A guest asked once what we do with our empty cans (meaning she had an empty can) instead of taking it from her or directing her to the sink, he explained in detail how we rinse them out, drain them carefully, leave them over night to dry them put them in the recyle bag in the garage. She said weakly, well I'm not going to be here in the morning, so can I just set my can on the counter? <P>Does your wife try to run your life?<P>Maybe dishonest is not quite the right word, maybe dismissive (spelling) is more accurate. My H, king of logical thinking, will continually and I do mean continually change his mind or direction based on any new information. I think he so values logical thinking, and of course he values HIS logical thinking above all others, that it is easy to dismiss another's point of view, or nullify a commitment.<P>I appreciate your advise JL...and I do think this may be your sticking point. From my expanded explaination, do you still stand by what you said or do you have any adjustments?<P>Leilana...yup, you get it. Although I appreciate a variety of viewpoints, it is nice to know I am not alone on my planet with my opinion And yes, we had a detailed discussion prior to the trip and this was the ONE thing (besides saying hi to everyone) that I asked.<P>nowhereman, no you are not out of line. Thank you for sharing. My H is a totally committed father and is wonderful with the kids. Actually we parent really well because we usually respect what each of us brings to the mix...and we don't overlap much, so there is no competition. If it has anything to do with emotions , it is my department and he stands clear. If it has anything to do with an activity, it is usually H's department and I join in.<P>Leilana...thanks for checking with your H. <P>SO GUYS, ARE YOU SAYING IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT YOU AND YOUR WIFE AGREED ON, IF YOU SEE A SITUATION DIFFERENTLY YOU JUST GO WITH YOUR JUDGEMENT, EVEN WHEN IT MEANS BREAKING AN AGREEMENT?

No, breaking an agreement isn't o.k.<P>But, maybe the situation you were concerned about didn't happen the way you envisioned it.<P>If this was the case, he may have felt that your concern wasn't valid at the time and made a judgement call.<P>I did say let him off the hook....the issue needs to be resolved. Just allow him to explain why he broke the agreement. You don't have to agree with his decision. And he needs to acknowledge that what he did hurt you.<P>Dittos to JL's last post. Just as an aside, I grew up in a family of boys with a tom-boy mother and my W grew up with all girls with a non-tom-boy mother. Her father was very protective while mine taught us how to hunt, fish and ride motorcycles....so, there lies some of my W and my differences.<P>Hang in There!<p>[This message has been edited by nowhereman (edited August 07, 2000).]

Well, he called as he said he would and was in a fine mood until I brought up the pool thing.<P>I opened with "Maybe I was a little hard on you before." He agreed. I then gave him ample opportunity to explain or apologize to me. Nothing. I then said I had spent some time trying to do a Root Cause Evaluation, which he is trained in, I am not.<P>I defined the problem was that he did not honor my request and then didn't see THAT as a problem.<P>As expected he said he would have defined the problem as unrealistic expectations on my part.<P>I agreed that was possible, but why did he agree? Answer: He didn't know they were unrealistic until he got there.<P>Now I will concede my daughter was perfectly safe. I envisioned a big pool area and it was actually quite a small pool. So he may have been right to make a different judgement. However, when we talked earlier he could have explained himself. Instead he was defensive, cold and silent. Although I am sure I didn't sound thrilled, I had not raised my voice nor was I harsh. Although I probably ended up making an disrespectful judgement, it would have never even progressed that far if he would have just told me the situation. I gave him the opportunity.<P>Even after we discussed it and I told him it sounded like he had made the right decision, he didn't offer any sort of olive branch.<P>The phone battery went dead. I don't know if he thought I hung up on him, but he hasn't called back. I don't want to call and wake the kids and his sister.<P>It is times like these I have to fight hopelessness. Everything is fine in our marrage if I don't request, I don't expect and I don't try to address any relationship issue that even touches on emotion.<P>Maybe this isn't even the best example, but I am so tired of trying to reach him on any intimate level. <P>Here is one recent glimpse of cluelessness. H answers most questions with one word and often in a tone that does not invite further probing. I'll ask about his day. Fine. But he knows I really want him to share more with me. One day he tells me this extremly short story of how a group of guys (H included) were talking about the safety record of the Concord and then the next day it crashed. In fact, I don't think he even said more than a sentence. I said something like "Wow, that's strange." H beams and brightly says "You really like it when I share this kind of stuff with you! That's why I told you!" <P>I of course thanked him. But that was his idea of deep meaningful conversation. It makes me want to scream.<P>Thanks for the quick help...I appreciated it!<P>

JL...my basic motto for being a mom goes something like:<P>"A mom is not to lean on, but to make leaning unnecessary."<P>When my children complain about their problems with teachers or friends, I am happy to listen, but I try to ask them questions so they come up with the answers instead of just giving advise. I can not remember any time I have stepped in for them, except as toddlers. My questions at teachers conferences always include, is my child behaving, is my child working up to their potential, how is my child treating other children? <P>However a 4 year old in a pool is a little different catagory than a kid with a beef with a teacher.<P>I never freaked out getting a sitter, by the way, but I made sure to have #s available and if I would be more than 1/2 hour away, an available adult in town to step in if baby sitter called. Of course I only did that when they were babies. When they walked and talked....I was outta there <P>My H almost never worries about anything, which is why I question if he really cares deeply. That may not be true, but sometimes it FEELs like it is true. Example. On vacation a drunk driver ran into kids and I on the highway. I do not have a cell phone. H and I were supposed to have a date when I got back from sovenier shopping. We were hit at about 9:30 and I finally got back to hotel after midnight. No one stopped to help us including the police. Long long story.<P>Anyway, we get back and H is worried? No, he's sleeping. I was supposed to be back around 9...and when I was past midnight with three kids in a city known for "problems" and he is sleeping. He figured I ate out with the kids or something, so he went to bed at about 11. I have never been even close to that late and not called...especially if plan would be changed.<P>I like that he values self suffiency and besides coaching me, really never exhibits any kind of jealous or controlling behavior.<P>But you'd think he could be a smidge protective sometimes, wouldn't you?

FHL,<P>That sounds so familiar. A number of years ago, I was out driving in a snowstorm and got back very late. I was concerned that he would be worried, but I needn't have - he was asleep. On another occasion, I came home in a terrible ice storm, and said if I had known it was going to be that bad, I would have stayed at work - and he got angry at the thought that I might have left him overnight with the 1.5 year old baby because she was still nursing occasionally. Nevermind the fact that if I had been killed on the way home, he would have been left alone with her permanently. <P>One of his favorite things to say when I was worried about something, not necessarily safety-related, was, "Just don't think about it." It must be so nice just to be able to do that. That is undoubtedly how he copes with leaving his children, almost never calling them, and refusing their requests to spend more time with him.

I think it truly is a GUY thing. I just do not think they are geared the way women are with the same protective maternal instinct. Not to say that they do not love the child just as much, but they are just different about it and how they think.<P>Here where I live, this male nurse was driving his baby to day care and going on to work at the hospital. Later on in the morning he talked to his wife and she mentioned the child. His heart sank and he flew to the parking lot....Yes, the child sitting in the car seat in the car, dead from the heat. The guy had forgotten to go by the day care and just gone on to work. The child was asleep and he never gave it another thought until he talked to his wife. How tragic and sad it was.<P>Now, I could be wrong here...but a mother does not usually forget she has her child with her. We are just more focused on the child...It is hard to explain...but I think it really is a guy thing. Sometimes it takes a terrible accident like this. I know that father will probably never be the same, and would be EVER so cautious.<P>The sad thing is, his wife was pregnant at the time with their second child. The marriage did NOT make it, because of this accident. I think she blamed him and he could not deal with the guilt. Very, very sad.<P>[This message has been edited by Susan (edited August 07, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Susan (edited August 07, 2000).]

Hi FHL,<P>Ever wonder why the phrases "conflict-avoider", "clueless", "men", and "husband" are used so often in the same conversation?<P>Seriously, from your description I'd say that he made a promise that he intended to keep, but when the situation arose it really seemed like no big deal to him, and it turned out okay, so he doesn't see the problem, and he basically thinks you're over reacting, but he'll try to be patient/patronizing with you until you just get over it.<P>Of course, that's just my experience with my husband, who is constantly promising me things that never quite get done. I must say we had a major breakthrough on this very subject this weekend via a long discussion (without LBs on my part for a change). Perhaps you can glean something from this that will help in your situation.<P>At the beginning of this recovery process, my husband easily agreed to do everything I requested. He basically promised the sun, moon, and stars in an attempt to save our relationship. Nearly all of those promises "bit the dust" very early on, leading to a lot of resentment on my part. While we were talking this weekend, he told me that all I do is focus on the promises that have been broken and that I give no credit for the ones kept. I had to agree that was true.<P>Further analysis revealed this: he has kept every promise that HE offered to me, but none of the promises that I asked (read demanded here) of him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, does it?<P>The promises that he voluntarily gave are things that he honors and considers important, the promises that I "asked" for were things he agreed to in order to keep the peace, but are things that he basically just can't see a good reason for.<P>So, through negotiation/conversation, we have really made progress here. I "released" him from all promises made and he voluntarily made new ones that HE wants and thinks will help us, and he is diligently guarding those things.<P>Finally, to my point. The chances of someone keeping a promise that they see no reason for is not very good. The promises that my husband did not keep were not important ones, he has kept the ones that are important (no contact, honesty, recommittment, etc.). Yet, those broken promises built up a lot of resentment in me that really impeded our progress.<P>My question to you is this: Are you upset because your daughter was not properly supervised, or are you upset because your husband did not honor a promise that you illicited from him? If it is the former, be thankful that she is safe and negotiate to make sure it NEVER happens again. If it is the latter, acknowledge that to him, forgive him, and let it go.<P>I have come to realize that I am very seldom upset with my husband about the thing that I complain about, if you can understand that. Sort of "the straw that broke the camel's back". That's why most of the time he sees my anger as complete overreaction, because it is for many things at one time. I'm sure you know what I mean. Sort of, "I know I forgot to take out the trash, but why is she so mad that she won't even talk to me about something so unimportant." When I'm really upset about the fact that he comes in and sits on the sofa after work instead of talking to me.<P>As to the secret for having a meaningful conversation with your husband, if you find out please let me know!!<P>Peppermint

OK, I slept on this.<P>I don't think my H's or my definition was accurate.<P>I think a more accurate definition of the root cause of the problem would be:<P>Our origional agreement was made under false assumptions (the pool area being big and noisy and crowded) and did now allow for a back-up plan. <P>Contributing factors:<P>Past history of H not watching the kids closely in a potentially dangerous situation<P>My heightened fear of the pool scene after seeing my daughter sink while I was watching her in a friend's pool. (A year ago I would not have thought to ask H this)<P>I did not think my request through and plan for a situation other than I envisioned. H did not think his reply through and accepted without considering other answers.<P>My H's tendency to "hurry up" any communication which in turn leads me to make quick uncomplicated requests does not allow for any in-depth communication or problem solving. He literally will not sit still and when I follow him around talking, it is hard for me to sound well thought out and his listening skills are quite poor. So we can't sit down and talk and walking after him and talking as he "does stuff" is not effective.<P>We can both be conflict avoiders, I am trying to learn new habits. <P>My H's tendency to value his own "logical" thinking to a point that it outweighs any previous agreement. He is constantly changes directions or decisions based on new information. Although this is a good thing, if you are in partnership and have any kind of understanding with another, it this can be problimatic when the person that changes the decision without additional input from the partner and the outcome affects the partner.<P>My tendency to take problems personally and interpret H's actions of "proof" he does not care about me or my feelings. <P>H really doesn't like requests or expectations to begin with...who does I guess<P>No consequences. H knows I may be disappointed, but what am I going to do? Leave? He knows my total commitment to him and the marriage and although I don't think he ever thinks of it this way, I really have no leverage.<P>Family expectations. He would risk insulting them if he could not go to the pool and would not let daughter go.<P>Since the situation is past, there really can be no corrective action (Root Cause term)<P>However, to avoid problem in the future, if I make a request that is important to me, I should fully think about it in its entirety and develope contingencies that are acceptable. H should be prepared to honor my request and if things change notify me first if possible and if not at least explain how the situation unfolded, acknowledging the adjustment. I should be careful not to immediately personalize a situation and he should be careful not to by dismissive or defensive.<P>Of course since I have no control to make him do ANYTHING, since none of us have control over another person, maybe I should modify what I have outlined again, only making changes within myself. Of course that does not sound like POJA, which I really tried to use to plan this whole reunion mess when it became apparent the dog situation was a problem. Oh, well.<P>Anyway, I am at least feeling better this morning.<P>I had a legitimate concern for the safety of my 4 year old, however, the pool thing was not what I had envisioned. Therefore, given the new dynamics of the situation my H did use his best judgement and take appropriate action.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited August 07, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peppermint:<P>Seriously, from your description I'd say that he made a promise that he intended to keep, but when the situation arose it really seemed like no big deal to him, and it turned out okay, so he doesn't see the problem, and he basically thinks you're over reacting, but he'll try to be patient/patronizing with you until you just get over it.<P>Oh yeah, you nailed it. That is our spiral. And yes, you are right about volentary promises being kept far more than requests. At least on H's part.<P>I try to be very careful to do everything H asks me, however. This admittedly is not much. If it is a to do type item, if it is the one thing I get done all day I will do it. I see it as an opportunity to fill some kind of need...but I always did this, not just post affair. If I don't think I can do it or I think it shouldn't be done, I try to resolve it first.<P>I know part of my standard reaction is that it disappoints me that my H does not return the favor. He does not have the same standard and he just doesn't get my point of the "whys" behind it. <P>Since I fight any kind of resentment, I try to work out any problem, but since he sees almost any communication that involves time or effort as a LB, this is touchy.<P>But thank you, Peppermint, you really helped.<P>By the way, how did you get H to sit still for your talk yesterday and how did you get him to open up to you? How did you get him to speak more than one word at a time? Did it involve any sort of glue or prod? <P>Take care! <BR> <BR>

No glue, no prod. Just a long walk/talk on Saturday morning. Once I got him started talking it was like the dam burst! We actually talked from 10:30 pm until 2:30 am Saturday night/Sunday morning as well.<P>Amazing what a few nights of good sex can accomplish!<P>Pepprmint

OK...I'd can work on the few good nights of sex first.<P>I don't think we ever in our marriage of almost 18 years talked for 4 hours at one time about anything. I can't even imagine how totally wonderful that would be. I don't remember an example were H came to me to talk OR the dam broke even if I initiated conversation. Is it usual to talk this much or did you feel like you entered an alter universe?<P>

FHL, I agree with Peppermint. You're angry/disappointed with your H and this, along with the earlier art fair topic are situations that highlight it for you.<P>You ask him to do something, he doesn't do it. Furthermore, he doesn't even realize it is really important to you.<P>I was re-reading some Harley stuff yesterday and read a part (sorry, don't know from what section, but here on the site) that talked about the WS "making it up" to the BS. You have been an inspiration here with Plan A & forgiveness, but I don't recall if your H ever did get to the point of "making it up" to you--which would include the 4 rules of successful marriage, POJA. You already know he is sorry and wants to forget his fooling around, you don't need to bring that up, you're still moving forward, not dragging the past.<P>I can't even tell you the difference it makes in ME that Guard, knowing conversation & affection & time are high on my list--and not even on his--offers those to me now almost every day. You KNOW what a change & miracle this is.<P>If I'm the least bit on target with you , could you take this opportunity of a disaggreement to once again bring up MB principles to your H, letting him know which ones are really important to you?<P>I guess I'm hoping that if you repeat it & re-phrase it enough, he'll get it.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

It really is wonderful to me, but I think my husband has reached the point that he really likes it too. We have always had times of long conversation, but then times when we don't have what it takes (time, attention, generosity, etc.) to make that needed connection.<P>I finally realized that I need those times to feel connected, but my husband has to feel connected to me to want to spend that time conversing. Therefore, for him, when we are well connected physically, it brings emotional closeness. For me, emotional closeness brings physical closeness.<P>Sounds like the potential is there for a very good and continuous cycle, doesn't it?<P>Peppermint

Yup Lor, you are really really bulls-eye here.<P>My H has not changed much in 18 years, although he was more emotional and intimate during dating and very early marriage. I think the first time I asked him why he didn't talk to me as much anymore, I think he said he'd said everything once already. In other words we shared our life stories, our beliefs and values and plan for the future...case closed. <P>Although he was never as verbal, as demonstrative as the slicker guys, he did seem more genuine. I had no idea he was such a clam. I should have, I knew him for 3 years casually before I dated him, but I just thought he was quiet and reserved, not non communitive.<P>Anyway after TRYING without formal training on to become intimate and slamming my head against a wall, I backed off. It seemed to work well. I lowered expectations, H was faithful, friendly and loving in his own way. We lived a charmed and blessed life. There was never a minute that if he showed any sign of wanting a deeper emotional connection that I wouldn't have leaped at the chance.<P>I don't honestly think that H's affair had anything to do with lack of emotional intimacy in our marriage. It certainly isn't a need of his and I don't think he was trying to fill it. In fact I don't think my H's affair was really based much on need at all. But now there is that little trigger in the back of my head that when I see my H distance himself by being so totally clueless, I feel very insecure BECAUSE of the affair. Does that make sense?<P>Although these same situations happened throughout our marriage, I didn't personalize them as much.<P>I also didn't know as much about relationships and silly me, once I studied up, I kind of expected to have my new efforts to have some kind of effect. Isn't that the law of Physics?<P>So now my expectations are higher, I don't want to settle for less, and I have a new insecurity that makes me even more sensitive.<P>H is pretty much the same. <P>The delicateness of the situation is that even my positive efforts tend to be viewed as a LB, because I truly do not think he wants emotional itimacy. <P>He is a kind, normally loving man. I probably make him sound like a stone. He is not. He genuinely loves me in his own way, he really wants me to be happy and he wants me to do anything I want to do or have anything I want to have. He is generous and fun and he really doesn't have a mean bone in his body.<P>Yes, I would love if he made this up to me. I'd love if he would even try to go beyond himself and reach out when he did not feel like reaching. Just the effort and the intent would make all the difference in the WORLD!<P>I did find the 5 steps workbook under my bed. Maybe I could get him to do part of it with me. Time is a problem because he is away 14 hours a day and is working 60-72 hour weeks for several more months. Our kids need him, too. Plus he likes to sleep 12 hours a day...so add it up. OK, that is a slight exageration.<P>Maybe this does take repitition, but repitition can be viewed as nagging. Plus it seems counter productive to make him feel inadequate if he truly CAN'T meet my needs.<P>How did you do it? Did the couselor get him to see the need to meet your needs or did you? No, a counselor is way out of the question. At least for now.