FHL<BR>Your simple query of "how did I do it"...{sigh} you know you would never in your worst dreams want your situation to get like mine was, but the absolute ickiness has led to this time of healing. My only part was first the long Plan A with much love & prayer, then giving up the last time he left, and I behaved badly, even coldly & callously. Not something I can recommend or that is in the MB plans. However, I think hearing the same *bull* that he had said, coming out of my mouth...just as he then used all my pro-marriage & MB arguements on me was such an odd flip-flop--it's difficult to argue against things you know are right. If I hadn't been so awful with my posts at that time, he might still be on MB.<P>Anyway, I think my lack of feeling or caring for him brought him to the recognition that he did want me & our marriage. I even told him "if you're having a bad night, don't call me or come see me, you've got other support" (and this approach was suggested by my counselor months before, I just hadn't had the heart to do it.) Of course, we were separated and the counselor told me that Guard should experience what divorce would really be like--I wouldn't be his "friend". <P>So, what can you use out of this? I remember you telling me last summer that you had stopped calling your H at work...waited for him to call you. You were changing your patterns in small ways, and he noticed. Are there ways you can do that again? I know sometimes I'm too busy for there to be a pattern and in your current state of mind, you might be too upset to wait for him to notice.<P>You've had time away with your girls, he's had time away with them...how about the 2 of you? After our time in Mexico--and we hacked those days out of our schedule with a chainsaw!--I can do nothing but recommend being 2 adult people, alone, no kids, no pets, no schedule. He might even talk to you under those circumstances since for many of the surrounding people, English was not their first language . A secluded cabin, or even tent, could have the same effect.<P>I know sometimes I just wanted to shake Guard and say "change or else!" But when it came down to it, it was Guard himself changing with God's help. Although I do think I did get in God's way at times....<P>Keep your heart soft.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Oh Lor, I will keep my heart soft. I have no choice. <P>My vows requires me to keep my end of the marriage up no matter what.<P>You know, sadly you do kind of prove my uneasy feeling that I won't really have much long term success because I don't have a stick. I mean YOU had a stick <P>I don't even have a twig. I have constantly been 100% committed to the marriage and really exhibited Plan A behaviors for 18 years. H knows I will not leave and I will not stop being nice. <P>You are right about the patterns. Trouble is he likes when I ease up on any front, like not calling him at work (never did much), but that doesn't make him move any closer to me. He just feel less pressured and is happier.<P>In fact if you peeled back his brain, you may find that life would be complete bliss with me if I gave up trying to draw him in emotionally. I really think he is happier in the marriage than he has ever been, and if he didn't have to feel guilty from time by disappointing me, his joy would be complete.<P>I really want to find a path here. I am willing to put in any effort.

Oh...the get-away.<P>Actually the one sweet thing H said when we were making decisions about this reunion thing was that when dear old pup goes, we will get away, just the two of us. You might even say that did show a clue.<P>Kind of ironic that I need to wait for my old pup (who does love me completely) to tell me she wants to die so I can have a chance to find that with H.

FHL,<P>What a difference a day makes! <P>May I be simplistic and relate back to the original issue? You state that you make single or simple requests that he agrees to then ignores. Therein lies your prob I think.<P>A request does not an enthusiastic agreement make. (Sounds like Yoda-speak) <P>What you're doing is not POJA.<P>Talking about your past request and his failure to meet it is not POJA.<P>Expecting an "olive branch" after you (conditionally) apologise is not going to get you anything. <P>Communication is the biggest hurdle/need for alot of us here. Well, except for Peppermint! Read up on what Harley says (on his web page) about "How to communicate.." something to that effect--talks about how to avoid lovebusting. Wish I could remember the exact article title. <P> You're guy sounds like a very poor articulator. My guy is the same way--can talk up a storm with another guy--becomes a damn mime with me! We're getting better at it tho. We POJA'd a solution to talk at least (our schedules suck, too) 15 minutes A DAY about a concern. (Yup, we POJA'd our need to POJA!) Today we will be talking about our plan to have a baby. We probably won't resolve anything but at least open up for a "first inning". <P>I said 1/2 to an hour a week. He said 1/2?! Instead of getting mad I said calmly "Too long?" He blew me out of the water by saying "Not long enough!" <P>I said we will never have a chance for longer talks--not with my schedule---he said, "I bet we can" and came up with the 15 minute idea. I'm willing to give it a shot.--it's more than I'd hoped for--instant enthusiasic agreement! <P>Then for you I would also suggest a brush up on POJA and what it really entails. Bring up a concern (for future problem prevention--don't bring up past hurts!) then brainstorm a solution. He'll more than likely follow thru on something if it's <I>his</I> idea. Guys hate "grocery lists" even if it has one item on it. Not unless they get something out of it, too (want to be sexist here and say "not unless it's beer" but I'm going to be stronger than that! ). (Enthusiastic agreement--remember that!) <P>And don't expect an apology--you should be shooting for clarification and better communication. An apology should never be your goal. Maybe that's what's stunting your communication. You're carrying alot of resentment around because of it. Shoot for <I>understanding</I>. <P>Good luck, Hon.<P>L<p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 07, 2000).]

Leilana...hey, you are turning on me Just kidding.<P>You have a point, we don't consistantly POJA, although this request was wrapped into a real POJA about what we would do about this reunion vs. the dog in the first place. We did a wonderful job on the whole thing except this one point.<P>My personal challenge with POJA is that even if my H was toting around stone tablets with our POJA agreement chiseled on them, he'd turn on a dime if something seemed more logical to him, without giving any thought or empathy to what my new ideas would be. Most of the time it doesn't matter so much, but in this highly charged time when any incongruency between what he says and what he does triggers the insecurity compliments of the affair, it starts to snowball.<P>Just realizing this helps, but duh...someday you'd think it could dawn on him, too.<P>Never the less I really don't carry around resentment. I really don't carry grudges.<P>Although this may be splitting hairs, what I think you are sensing is more my flustrations of trying and trying and trying and trying to communicate, to get it right.<P>I truly am open to ideas and I will try just about anything as long as it is consistant with my values of course. I don't mind taking responsibility to finding the right path or even keeping us on it. <P>I will reread your post and really think about how I could make it work in our case. Will your H actually sit down and look at you without doing a dance in the chair with his eyes darting around looking for the first means of escape? <P>He is a hard nut to crack.

I'll let you know later. May require a little duct tape and rope. <P>WHO consistently POJAs?!! We're only now coming around to doing this. Have crashed and burned so many times! <P>But this issue of future safety is way too important to do the conventional way. <P>My H says you need to "waterproof" your baby. Teach her how to swim and quick. Great common sense advice. That's my guy! But doesn't deal with your communication/coming to a mutual agreement issue. <P>That male nurse story--Oh my God! Told my H that one, too. He was equally horrified. I was relieved he felt the same way I did.<P>Then I remembered this baby chick incident we had and kind of LB'd my H by reminding him of it--and then laughing about it.<P>This in no way compares to the value of a human life and what that poor family suffered but here's my anectdote.<P>My H had "rescued" a baby chick once, half dead, and put it in his truck to take home. Forgot about it till the next morning when he got in his truck to go to work. (!) Handed it to me as I came home from work (opposite shifts) and said "Here" and left.<P>I called a vet, got referred to a bird lady, ran to the store for baby food and a dropper and a heating pad. Nursed that thing--slept at two hour intervals--and viola--"Chic-chic" survived and was running around. H was so happy when he came home. <P>I went to work. Came home the next morning to find H asleep on the couch and "Chic-chic" with her feet up in the air, half frozen, stiff and "blue" around her beak stuck behind the fridge chirping slowly and weakly. He had taken her out of her box to run around and he just "fell asleep" Once again, H had to dash off to work and I had to resuscitate her, "steam" her over the tea kettle, force feed warm fluids, toast her on the heating pad and blow a heater on her. I slept on the kitchen floor with her in my hands so I'd feel burned before she would. It was painful being defrosted--looked like seizures at times but she survived it. She was a tough little girl. H came home ecstatic and relieved.<P>Once again I left (dragging my knuckles on the floor) for work (I work 12 hour nite shifts). <P>The next two days I got to sleep at four hour intervals--yippee--only to feed and water her. H didn't. She was usually starving and cheeping hysterically when I came home.<P>The nite I finally had off, H took her to bed with us to cuddle her cause she got out of her box and cried hysterically (CHEEP!CHEEP!CHEEP!) I was studying for my class (yeah, I was taking a course on top of all this) so was reading in bed. I finally closed my book around midnite to realize things didn't look quite right. My H apparently cuddled her a little too tightly and she apparently suffocated from too much love. <P>I woke him up and gently said, "Honey, Chic-chic is gone." He said "OH NO!" then, "She's not dead, she's just sleeping!" as he proceeded to shake her and her little head just rolled side to side. He tried to breath into her beak. He was so distraught. He finally put her in her little box and kept it by the bedside in case she was just in a coma, I guess. Or he watched too many reruns of "Pet Sematary". Anyway, he wouldn't bury her for two days!<BR> <BR>The day he did, he went for a ride in his truck. He called me from his cell phone from back on top of the mountain where he found her. He said "I'm looking for another 'Chick-chick'." I said, "Get your butt back down here right now, Mister! I'm not about to go thru all that again!"<P>There must be something lacking in testosterone or something women have in estrogen. <P>Another case in point for a vasectomy, I guess! <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 07, 2000).]

I love that story. It really sounds like something H/I would do.<P>When old pup had puppies (because H cancelled her appointment to get neutered) he put her out in the cold garage because he thought she was getting ready for birth and didn't want a mess. I get up, she is nowhere in the house, look in the garage and there are puppies strewn everywear not even whimpering. She wasn't Mom of the year. So H and I had to warm them, rub them and get them going. <P>Then I spent several nights sleeping beside her bed because she didn't know quite what to do. That is when we became the Mom team and she became more my dog.<P>There are more stories and although one cat did die in his care (he should have taken him to the vet, but I know he didn't think he was that sick), my pets and kids really gotten through some close calls.<P>Please update me on your progress, I am really interested.<P>

<P>Keep ME posted on how things are with you!<P>Will have to let you know how our POJA POWWOW goes tomorrow. H won't get off work for 3 more hours and then I have to go to work 2 hours after that. Another 12 hour nite shift. <P>I bet every betrayer wishes their wives had my schedule. It's betrayer heaven!!

FHL,<P>I'm on travel, but thought I would check in and see how you are doing. It seems that things have calmed down. That is very good.<P>FHL, we have raised 3 children with a pool, and your fear is well founded. However, it sounds as if your H had some clue as to what was going on.<P>I have to ask, did you like your H telling you how to do things more efficiently? I'll bet you didn't. You asked about my house. We pretty much devy up tasks. My W is very capable so I never worry about how or what she will do. After years, she now lets me do things my way when I am doing them. I was a batchelor a long time and can do about anything around the house.<P>I have been thinking about your further posts. It seems to me a recommendation I made to someone else might be worth a try in your case. Your H seems to like logic and efficient operations. Perhaps you need to talk to him in his language. <P>For example, you concern about how he would handle the pool situation, may be you need to present it as a problem to be solved as efficiently as possible. Step one he doesn't want a mad or frantic W, second he doesn't want an injured child. Ask him how he is going to efficiently handle these two problems. See if he can offer you a solution that maximizes information transfer (keeping you sane ) with a minimum of phone calls. Further, it is a given D needs to be safe, how is going to do that as well.<P>Do you get my drift. He seems to be task oriented with a bent on efficiency. Talk his language and maybe you can get him to respond and meet your legitimate need to know your D is safe. Just an idea, maybe you can think of something better.<P>Oh!, Explain the women who went into play bingo and left her child to die in the heat of their car. Women do some pretty dumb stuff with children also. The real situation is that most people do care for and protect children. Even your H and I. <P>Glad, things are smoothing out and hopefully you can hit upon a strategy, that will get him to consider your concern.<P>Hope so.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Great idea! <P>Thanks for checking up on me. How is it that you are in the field you are in and actually have a clue.<P>The really scarey thing is that the people that I have met that work with H ALL think like he does, so he feels normal!<P>Just reread your post. NO, I HATED WHEN H SHOWED ME HOW TO DO THINGS BETTER. It made me feel inadequate and unloved. Earlier in the marriage I thought I must be a boo boo brain and just hadn't realized it for 20+ years. Then I finally came to the conclusion that was H was the quirkier than I was inefficient, if that makes sense.<P>Now if I am doing a task and he walks in the room, I usually smile, put down the dish rag or whatever and come back to complete the task after he leaves. It seems to work for both of us. When I truly don't know how to do something I am happy to ask for direction.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited August 08, 2000).]

Re: showing the spouse how to do something "better". We're trying out "Gee what a great idea!" with a big, old . It's just difficult to keep the eyes from darting with a and could turn at any moment.<P>Sometimes I think everything is worth a try.

Here is your progress report:<P>I cheated. Did "the wild thing" before POJA. Actually almost forgot about POJAing!<P>Anyway, we POJAed in bed so there was no darting of eyes or looking for escapes. It was mellow and we kept our sense of humor and it was kind of fun actually. H actually ENJOYED it! We negotiated the baby thing--took us about 20 minutes, then felt so good about it I asked if we could just try to start on MY big issue--the coworking situation. Well, we ended up talking for another 1/2 hour. I feel really good about that, too. I've heard some things I've never heard him articulate before that was even more reassuring to me--which makes me able to see there really could be a baby in our future! <P>My H will actually be writing a "No Contact" letter which we both initially thought of as ridiculous since they both work together but actually we now see as important to show OW a plan of committment and intent. It may help jump start her out of her limbo, it may send her crashing into further depression--but it makes a statement about our strength as a couple again. <P>Also, all his company is waiting for is approval from the county waterworks dept. and then they will start building which will take 6 months and then H will be managing that new facility--on the other side of the island. We will move homes as well. (This has also been my dream since we live in the same bloody subdivision as OW and her H!)<P>And if I'm not pregnant by Oct., instead of moving out, I'll be setting up an In Vitro appt.! <P><BR>

Thanks for the progress report. Kind of ironic to use "the wild thing" as foreplay for POJA...but brilliant really. <P>Actually that might really work for H and I to kind of set the mood <P>Hey...why not save time and do the POJA and the "wild thing" together? Wouldn't that put a new wrinkle on joint "Enthusiastic Agreement"?<P>"Yes, Yes, Yes....ohhhhh YES!!!!!!"<P>What do you think?

FHL, I'm literally laughing and snorting!!<P>That may be our new key word. Instead of "I want you, Baby!" it'll be "Honey, we need to negotiate. NOW!" <P>Just mentioning POJA will get our H's horney!<P>Ok. Patiently waiting for my update now. <P>Don't forget about the Oprah show this afternoon if you're interested.

I did read somewhere that right after sex is the best time for a non threatening relationship talk with a man. I've tried it. Sometimes it's been good and sometimes not. I tread very lightly there. <P>With most folks, an hour or so seems to be the outside limit for a good relationship talk. Rarely, is my h past the introduction in such a short time. It takes us that long just to define the terms. We both seem to first have to reach the point of exhaustion before we make any substantive progress.<P>Leilana, it seems like you had a great talk. Things sound really good.<P>FHL, I agree with what someone else said (was it K?) that perhaps a short needs list would help. I have no luck with my h unless I limit the issue I'm asking him to discuss to one very narrow topic.<P>I think that your pool issue is legitimate - at least the part that involves his saying one thing to appease you when he doesn't seem to have a good faith commitment to keeping his promise. However, I would have to choose my battle because with my h it would take days to get past his saying, "but the outcome was good because now she's not afraid of water!" <P>He would be very hostile at my not making him a hero (for what in fact was probably just dumb luck on his part). He would never let me separate the 2 very distinct issues of seeing that the child is protected and keeping his promise.<P>I think I'd save this issue for another day. Wait until you have a less complicated (& perhaps less emotionally laden) example of his saying whatever you want to hear without enthusiastic agreement. Maybe the principal of enthusiastic agreement is one that you would like to discuss with him. It seems to me to have a bearing on you need for romance and his need for your participation in recreational sports. <P>Nowadays when my h promises me something and doesn't honor it or even worse covers up something that he knows might upset me, I go nuts. My present need for complete openess and honesty has drastically increased as a result of his affair. <P>Someone said that perhaps we are hypersensitive to relationship issues. Of course we are! It's good to recognize that and get it out into the open. I have asked my h to accept that I am way out there on things that pre affair did not raise my hackles higher that a gnat's knee. He's become much more understanding of that.

Ok, before we go any further the reality is--I didn't scheme Mahta Hari style and use sex to get him to do something.<P>The truth is we planned on doing a true POJA after he came home from work and before I had to take off for work. But he just looked so darned <I>cute</I> when he came home! <P>Or maybe his enthusiasm and setting up the time to do this negotiation business just deposited enough love units for me to want to "maul" him!<P>Ok, said my peace. Please continue... <P>(Actually, I'm going to go to sleep now. Gotta nuther shift tonite. I'll catch up on you guys later! Aloha, L)

wesse...you are right about how incredibly hard it is for my H to handle complex issues and that is exactly how he handled our talk about the pool. He didn't get that there were two seperate issues.<P>Last month the Art Fair issue was the same way. Even after everything was worked through...no thanks to H...I calmly went over exactly why I was upset. Although I think for a fleeting moment he grasped it, I think I had him repeat what I said, if you were to ask him today? Out the window, I am sure.<P>Yes I do hit the roof when his words and actions are not congruent in any way because of residual insecurity from the affair. He understood that for a long time, but I think he is so past it, he forgets there are still triggers for me.<P>Leilana...no I didn't think you planned it that way, but if you had, why not?