Last night was terrible, W "went out" meaning that she went to this OP's house + said she was coming back "not too late". She was.<P>This morning she started talking about OP and I asked her to stop, that I couldn't handle it then. A few minutes later we talked some but I started with LB's; she replied with "what about me??" and "coming back to what???" That really hurt but told her that it was not about me but about her, that I could survive but that I didn't want her to get hurt, so to let go but to keep her eyes and ears open so not to fall onto her face. During the day I was very positive in the office and before she left to "lunch" told her "be good… or be bad but BE"<P>Tonight we went to dinner with some friends (my daughter too); later came home and started talking, asked about MB and (DAMN!!!) even told her my name here. The conversation took us to OP (told her that it's OK, that I could handle it then), who is also suffering and all that, we actually talked a lot about OP and their relationship. I told her why I dislike this OP, that I've been on the line ready to cheat to her either because I was feeling the blues (I've always stopped short) or because a married W had tried to seduce me, told her that a married person in a bad position is fragile, that since OP is divorced too because for the same cause (betrayal) she knew exactly well where to push and how. My wife says it was not OP but her who started pursuing the relationship.<P>Whatever, I have really being in the same spot and have tried to help- we are so fragile when having marital problems than a sincere hand can be really helpful while an insincere one can PRETEND being helpful while planting seeds of distrust instead.<P>We talked also about something that just came to my realization: About 2 months ago I was desperate for how things were going and for the first time also ready to have an affair myself, so I told her this & asked her how would she feel right now if our roles were reversed? We were hurting each other so much that an affair by "the other one" justified what we were telling ourselves (he/she doesn't love me).<P>She wanted to talk about long term plans but I asked her to stop, told her that most affairs don't last long, that we'll talk about it sometime in the future, either if this one lasts long enough to become long term commitment or once it ends. And then (DAMN AGAIN!!!) told her jokingly that she should cheat on OP with me (DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!!!)<P>Am I being manipulative? Is it OK to talk about OP? I kinda prefer to establish right away that she can talk to me about it (even if it hurts) so when it ends she can come to me. We've always been good friends, and what hurt the most before ("we were hurting each other", etc.) was in much lack of communication.<P>So what do you think?<P>ThisAlex<P>------------------<BR>If someone hurts you, betrays you or breaks your heart, forgive them because they have helped you learn about Trust and Awareness.<p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited December 08, 1999).]

ThisAlex<P>I am proud of you, you are doing well. I often wonder how I would have coped with my W still living at home and visiting the OM. In a lot of ways I am glad we are separated for that reason, although it obviously has major disadvantages on Plan A.<P>With respect to whether you should be talking about the OM to your W, I believe this is a good break through.<P>In "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman he notes that if the betrayer can be coerced into being truthfull to the betrayed about the affair partner this goes a long way to breaking the bond between the lovers.<P>He also makes the observation that we feel comfortable with those that are honest with us and uncomfortable with those that lie to us. So the more your S can open up about the OM the more your chances of breaking that bond and possibly ending the affair.<P>It is fair to say that the OM will know all the personal details of yourself and your relationship with your W.<P>You are correct in saying you came on a bit heavy suggesting that your W betray the OM, but in the long run that should be your goal. Take it steady on that one in the meantime however.<P>Keep up the good work, will be watching out for progress on your posts.<P>Take care<P>Fairenough

Why do you feel that last night was terrible?<BR>I don't think it was to bad from what you said. Yea a little thick here and there but don't beat yourself up about it.<P>You expressed your feelings pretty well I think and it would appear that your W received it pretty well and that is good.<P>Although your W is totally welcome - perhaps you shouldn't have told her about MB just yet but what is done is done. <P>To Your W if she reads this:<P>We here at MB try very hard to lift each other up and help make sense for each other when things are to clouded and we are to emotional to see things clearly ourselves. I am sure I speak for everyone when I say we would love to be that support for you too, if you would like us too.<BR>The whole goal here is to do what we have to to save our marriages that we hold so dear. It is also a place for us to vent, so that we don't at home as much. Please understand this and don't get upset about anything your H may say here, this should remain a safe haven for him and it would be a great one for you as well. This is a hard thing for all involved. We are here for him and you too. This forum really is a God send.<BR>WELCOME!!!!<P>Alex,<BR>You shared your heart, and there is nothing wrong with that if done in a positive way & I am proud of you. It takes time, I know how much you hate that word, we all do but we can't change that.<P>As far as talking "long term" I think you were 100% right in holding off on that subject, very wise of you. Give it time and give your W time. I can tell from your posts that your W still loves you and I also know from your posts how much you love her. Things will turn out as they are meant to.<P>Stay strong, stay focused and have faith in yourself and know we are here for you both.<P>Genie

When referring to "last night" I meant Monday night, when she came home after 3 am; Tuesday night we went to dine with friends who are visiting from out of town and talked after we came back. She says she loves me and that she always will + wants us to remain friends, but that she is no longer in love with me.<P>Genie, I don't think you know the whole story, OP is a woman.<P>ThisAlex<p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited December 08, 1999).]

ThisAlex,<BR>Yes I realize that this OP is a woman, if I said OM then it was a mistype... sorry.<P>But to be honest with you I don't think that it makes that much of a difference, male or female the same rules pretty much apply.<P>For a long time my H loved me but wasn't "in love" with me either. Like I said in another post somewhere (I think it was one of NB's) but I have to admit I am an optimistic and I always try to look at the bright side of things. <P>If I didn't... I would have gone completely insane and even then I came real close.<P>Genie

Thank you, Genie.<BR>Thank you, fairenough<P>ThisAlex