I read your reply in the males thread, and didn't want to write there.<P>Isn't that the whole point of meeting the other's emotional needs, that they would find you irresistible? Have you sat down and really figured her out?? Not to pry, it's just I can identify with not being loved even though I am female and the betrayed.<P>Can she articulate what she needs? Sadly, before this mess, I couldn't exactly. Now, things are so clear and I know what I need, and my h is listening and doing.<P>You have to find out exactly what would make her crazy about you. For ex., most Harley books dismiss a woman's need (most women probably don't care much) for a good looking spouse. I didn't realize before how much I needed hard biceps, abs, etc. It's a need he has too. So we are both working hard even though we are already at our "ideal weight". I also admire so many things about my h. He is truly one in a million. So I feel this even while the pain of betrayal is still very fresh.

Hi Schizzo, <P>There is a definite difference in courting a lady for the first time and courting your wife back from an affair. <P>When a relationship is new, neither person can do wrong in the others eyes. Everything is new and exciting. The person you're courting has never heard all your stories, all your jokes, etc. Your smell is new. Your look is new. The way you handle a situation is unknown and you look forward to how each of you will respond. Every word that emanates from your mouth is magic. Neither of you can do no wrong. You both put the effort in because you both want the relationship to succeed.<P>Enter infidelity; the cancer that destroys so many marriages. For me, as for most, I never, ever thought infidelity would cross my path. I was devoted to my wife and I knew she was committed to me. After all, she gave me her vow that she would. Well, after 16 years of marriage we started growing a part. I don't know exactly when it happened. It's like your walking down this forest path and you become self centered along the way. You get caught up in "things" and you turn and she's not there. There was a fork in the path and she was self centered too and you both didn't notice you were no longer walking alone. <P>Now, for some reason, and to this day I still don't know why my wife didn't tell me she was so unhappy in our marriage. She kept it to herself and let the hurt grow into something ugly. She grew to hate me. I finally realized she was not happy as se seemed to be withdrawing from me even more. I finally pryed it out of her and she unleashed a fury of comments that crushed my spirit. (e.g. I don't love you anymore. We were never lovers - ever! I will never have sex with you again - ever! The sight of you repulses me. You are the father of our children and that's it. That's the only bond we have. ). There were many more but I fell into a state of shock and grew numb to all feelings. She wanted out and started searching for an apartment. She later decided to stay for our kids, but withdrew from them too. My wife loathed me. I don't think I was a bad husband. I think I was more caring than many I know. But, I committed the cardinal sin against my wife - I took her for granted. <P>After a few months of doing everything wrong and later finding out that there was another man involved, I set out to win her back and change for her. I found the emotional needs questionnaire. My wife refused to read it let alone fill it out. She refused to go to counseling - why bother repairing something she doesn't want fixed. I had to figure out her needs by trial and error. I didn't know my wife anymore and she didn't want to let me get to know her. I wrote love letters and poems to her that were literally thrown back in my face. I lost 30 lbs. I returned to my highschool weight. Lean and muscular. I'm no model, look a little like Tom Hanks. Personally, I think most women would find me attractive. My wife's OM doesn't hold a candle to me (my opinion). He's older, overweight, and he cheats on his wife (not exactly the characteristics I thought my wife would find attractive). <P>I kept plowing away trying to find her real needs. I did and tried everything you can imagine. I found a couple of keys that unlocked the door. Conversation and non-sexual touch. It took me a very long time to find these. I am a great talker and a intense listener now. My wife and I can talk for hours about almost anything. Very, very, slowly she allowed me to touch her again. Now I give my wife daily hair rubs, or back rubs, or foot rubs. I cherish her in more ways than most women could imagine. I notice when her make up is running low and I refill it for her. I make sure her car has gas and is running well. She is showered with compliments. I tell her what I admire about her. I still write her love letters and leave love notes for her to find. You wouldn't believe it all. <P>From what I read in her emails to the OM and what he writes, I think he treats her like cr@p. Yet, she is still drawn to him. My wife doesn't hate me anymore. She would say she cares for me. I give loaves and loaves of bread and get crumbs in return. She still won't fill out the questionnaire. I basically do meet every single need listed in that thing. <P>I don't know what else to do Schizzo. We reached a plateau in our marriage. A year ago, I would have been a pretty happy husband with the state my marriage is in right now. But, I'm not happy. I think I would even be happy with the crumbs I get if I knew the OM was out of my wife's life - but he's not. So, I keep trying. I try new and different things with her. Dancing, concerts, plays, whatever. <P>I don't think my wife knows what she wants. The only thing she has said is a need for her is "independence". I think she has to crash and see this OM for what he really is and see herself for what she has done.<P>This was probably a whole bunch more than you wanted; but it felt good for me to write it down.<P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved. <P><BR>

Sha, That was a longer reply than I expected. Maybe she now takes you for granted. One thing I have not understood as I've set out on meeting my h's needs is this: he said I was emotionally needy (clingy?) and that was a real turnoff. The OW was self-confident, etc. Oddly enough, I have found the strength recently and my confidence has grown. But the question is: Can/should we work to meet the other's needs and also maintain a certain aloofness, that we are not a doormat. There is a tension between the two, but they are not mutually exclusive. I strongly admire my h's sense of confidence, that he was never defensive when I directed my anger at him. He admits when he is wrong, and moves on. But we are following the no contact rule. He knows it cannot happen again, and I don't know what I would do if he were still seeing her. It's been hard enough swallowing the fact that the last year and a half have been a lie. And we can trace back to the exact date that we started walking different paths as you put it. My oldest was 6 months, and I told him we were like strangers. He was travelling for work, and I was home with the baby. I wished he would stay away and just send the check. We had been very close before, and neither of us knew how to handle the work/child double whammy. He never brought it up again, but now he sees it scared him and he put up a wall. He was still very good to me, but I didn't know he was pretending to be ok. And he is a master salesman. I bought it, and sadly here we are.

Schizzo,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> he said I was emotionally needy (clingy?) and that was a real turnoff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My wife said the same thing.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the question is: Can/should we work to meet the other's needs and also maintain a certain aloofness, that we are not a doormat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is indeed <B>THE</B> question. It's a fine line I guess. I'm much better at it. My wife wants this independence thing. So, I try to give it to her. She tells me if I'm going overboard and as of late she hasn't said quit, so I guess I'm giving her the independence she wants. It's all so hard, so frustrating sometimes. <P>I'm glad to hear you are recovering well. I wish you the best Schizzo.<P>SHA

Sha, but I'm not talking about her independence. I'm talking about yours. If she said the same thing to you re: being clingy, should you hold back some? If you can walk the fine line, she would probably find it very attractive.

SHA:<P>I've been lurking aroung the forum for quite a while and I have seen your posts all over the place but it wasn't until today that I saw how very much alike we are. With very few exceptions I could have written your last post. I can't beleive that someone else out there is in the same boat. <P>Some slight but significant differences exist, but for the most part your W and mine seem to be functioning the same way and you and I are doing the same things. <P>What I miss the most is the intimacy. In the past year I have progressed slowly and am still stuck on the back/foot rub stage. But at least I get to touch her for a while. <P>Anyway, I don't like the fact that there was one of us in the world. I really hate to see that there are two of us. I can only imagine that there are many more of us out there.<P>Not a nice thought.<P>------------------<BR>PW<BR>

Schizzo, <P>I used to be independent. Probably too independent, that's why I'm here. Now, I'm trying to walk that fine line. It kills me because I want to spend my entire day with her. I want to hold her all the time. I want to kiss her when I see her. <P>The fine line is tough, because I feel if I am too independent now, then the extra time away from me will be spent with the OM. <P>I'm just so screwed up. I hate having to try and figure this out. I trying to follow the MB principals to the letter sprinkled generously with prayer and I can't get in her heart. <P>I think a lot of this mess I'm in has to do with my wife's Midlife change if you will. She's embarking on a career now, after being a stay at home mom and homeschool mom for so many years. She has changed a lot in the past couple of years. <P>Maybe, just maybe, it's that old cliche that we don't want to hear - TIME.<P>SHA

I don't want to beat this to death, and I do have to pick up my little one (my 4 year old is home sick with a fever), but is there an independence of attitude??? I was NOT talking about giving her more time away. We spend almost all our free time together now, and are spending a lot on babysitters for the first time.<P>I just wonder if we are sometimes too eager to please, and SHOW the eagerness too much. I still feel it just as much, but I try not to wear my heart on my sleeve like I did. I know what I'm trying to say, but articulating clearly is a whole different thing.<P>------------------<BR>hoping<P><BR>

Schizzo, <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...but is there an independence of attitude???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Beats me. I only know it shouldn't be this hard. I know we shouldn't have to walk around on egg shells. I know we should be accepting of one another and we BOTH should be trying to make the marriage happy for each other. I know that this shouldn't be a game and it feels like it sometimes. <P>I've tried wearing my heart on my sleeve, I've tried hiding my heart from further pain, I've tried showing my heart every now and then. I don't know what the right way is anymore. <P>I know I have to try and be happy with me. I have to try and be happy without getting hardly any of my needs met. I can't depend on my wife to make me happy, because that's not happening. I'm trying to figure out myself and be happy with my lot in life. I certainly have no regrets now. I cherish her every day. If that isn't enough and she won't communicate to me any changes that I should do to help our situation, then we won't grow any closer. <P>I've given this over to God totally. I'm tired of trying to maniulate the outcome. I'm praying that the Holy Spirit will guide my wife in her daily decisions. That's all I can do anymore. <P>SHA