Greetings all you MB people. Man - keeping up with this board is a full-time job! ha ha<P>Anyway, I don't know if I have a question or need advice, or just need to get some thoughts out. I feel like it's getting to the point in my marriage that H is going to give up. Granted, he has every right(or reason) to. But for those of you in Plan A (and even Plan B), you know that putting pressure on the WS is a LB and usually only drives them away.<P>I am the WS, and my H has been wonderful. He tried Plan A for months, and Plan B for a short time. We couldn't really handle doing either one. Last week we were on MAJOR Plan A - doing things together, talking all the time, etc. I think it did us a world of good to feel that "closeness" again. However, last night H decided that we can't do that anymore. He's afraid of getting his hopes up & then having them dashed again. <P>He says he is seeing progress in me, albeit in small steps. I told him I am doing the best I can. I know all of you BS think that we (WS) are dense.... like why can't you just beat us with a stick and knock some sense into us, right???? Well, I'm here to tell you, KNOWING what needs to be done is NOT all it takes. If that was the case, there wouldn't BE a Marriage Builders web site, because nobody would need it. I'm pretty sure every one of the WS knows what they have done (or are doing) is wrong, and they feel really sh**** about it. Believe me, nobody (H, family, friends, counselor) can beat me up about this more than I have beaten myself up. <P>But an A is an addiction. I am still in contact with the OM, and I understand (and agree) that H and I cannot move forward until OM is out of the picture. I KNOW this. And believe me, I want to work on my marriage. I wouldn't have been hanging out here with all of you if I didn't. <P>So why don't I just end it, right? If only it were that easy. I guess I'm a coward, or afraid of hurting the OM, or afraid of the pain & withdrawal I know *I* will go through. I have started my "no contact" letter, and know that I have to send it before H can fully accept me back.<BR> <BR>Anyway, I'm rambling. My point to this post is... how do some of you (BS) do this for so long? I've seen posts where you have "hung in there" for months and months and even years... waiting and hoping for your spouse to wake up and do the right thing. How do you not lose hope? I think my H is losing hope. Every day I'm afraid he's going to call me up & say, "This is it. I can't do this anymore."<P>Last night we talked about some of the posts we've read on here (we both post), and I said I didn't know how some of you did it.... Plan A-ing for so long, sometimes even when your WS is living with the OP. He said he thinks y'all are crazy. <P>I just want to say how amazingly strong I think all of you are. I hope my H can find the strength to stick it out. I know he is willing to do whatever it takes to save us, but I also know that he is sick of this treadmill and wants to move on with his life, either with me or without. And I can't blame him.<P>Unless you are in this situation, you can not possibly know how helpless you can feel, even when you KNOW what you need to do. Look at how many people quit smoking... unsuccessfully. Not quite the same, but close enough.<P>H and I are now on Plan "C".... we haven't been able to do the no contact thing, but seeing me is too difficult. Therefore, if we need to talk, or hug, or yell, then we call. If he feels like it, he can answer. And vice versa. Thank God for caller ID. LOL We'll see how it goes.<P><BR>Ok, enough of my babbling. Thanks for letting me... vent, I guess. <P>You are all an amazing help to me.<P>L_I_L

I am glad you can go to your husband with your pain and he can go to you. You both deserve happiness.<P>Best of Luck to you both<P>Judy

It's so nice to see that you both post here, and that you really want to work things out. Your H can read your post and have hope. I wish I had that knowledge! My WS says one thing then does the opposite, and says she's trying to "save my feelings" by lying to me!<P>Don't beat yourself up too much. When you find you're beating yourself up, just fight back! <P>Good luck to you, and feel free to vent on us!

LiL,<P>I know you really didn't ask a question, but you sure got my curiosity up. About your H's posting name. Actually, it might help people here help you and H if they knew the connection. But that is up to you two.<P>I guess what I wanted to say, or reflect on was you statement about hurting the OM. Has it occurred to you that you will lose your H? Or have you really not faced that fact? <P>I know intellectually you know he may leave, but have you really thought about who you are going to lose? It seems to me you have not reached the point where in your heart you "know" you that you can/will lose the man that loves you deeply and stood by you in this mess.<P>I would like to give you my slant on why the people here stay and try when they have been so hurt. It is called <B>Hope</B> and <B>Faith</B>. They have faith in the innate goodness of their spouse and they hope that their spouse will finally become the person they married.<P>But LiL, you also may be missing something else here, MB is a place to restore marriages, but it is even more a place to restore people, so that they can go on when they do finally lose hope. Your H is here learning how to try and restore your marriage, doing his best to keep hope alive, but he is also learning how to be a better man, a better person, and a person that can function when hope deserts him. He will be able to move on, he will know he did his best to save the marriage. He will be prepared to leave you.<P>LiL, I am not trying to frighten you, but you only have a finite amount of time. How finite, I don't know, neither does your H, and of course neither do you. However, as you pointed out if you don't let go of OM, then you will lose your H, whether you marry OM or not, your H will be lost.<P>Don't delude yourself on this point.<P>So read here, keep posting here, and hopefully you will begin to see things differently. Hopefully, you will see yourself differently, your H differently, and your future differently. LiL, there is much to hope for in your marriage, but you really control this situation.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

[I know you really didn't ask a question, but you sure got my curiosity up. About your H's posting name.]<P>I will leave that up to him. <BR>I wouldn't mind anyone knowing, but he only posted for the first time yesterday, and didn't even tell me - I found it and knew who he was. <P>[Has it occurred to you that you will lose your H? Or have you really not faced that fact? ]<P>Yes, it has occurred to me. I think our stint at Plan B made me realize that. Up until that point, I had wavered between the two of them, not really sure which direction I wanted to go. Now I KNOW which way I want to go, and what I stand to lose if I don't. It's just getting to the point where I do what needs to be done.<P>[MB is a place to restore marriages, but it is even more a place to restore people, so that they can go on when they do finally lose hope. ]<P>I know that as well. The one thing I kept telling my H was that I needed to get myself "right" before I could give 100% to anyone, especially him. Reading everything I can find on this subject, and hanging out here with all of you has helped me do that. I am stronger than I have ever been, and I know my H is, too. He finally decided to start focusing on HIM, not just US, and it shows. I'm glad - I've been wanting him to do that for a long time. It's not selfish, it's self-preservation. He's a good, good man, and I would hate for any of this to make him feel differently, no matter how it turns out.<P><BR>[LiL, I am not trying to frighten you, but you only have a finite amount of time.]<P><BR>What you said doesn't frighten me. Believe me, what has happened to my life in the last 7 months has frightened me immensely! I know I don't have forever, and I wouldn't WANT to go on like this forever. It's not a case of having my cake and eating it too, because quite honestly, this "two-sided" cake doesn't taste too damn good. I hate the situation as much as anyone... I am just in a huge mess and need to figure out how to climb out of this hole I dug for myself. And I hope and pray that my H has the love and patience and understanding to be there until I can. I'm not stupid, though, and I know there's no guarantee that he will be there when I find my way out.<P>Thanks for your words of wisdom, and thanks for all of the support. At a time when I feel like the lowest scum on Earth, you all help me realize I'm not. I am a good woman, just a good woman who made a terrible mistake.<P>L_I_L

You said it yourself. WS know what to do. If you want your H to hang in there then you need to give him reason to. Start by ending it with OM otherwise let your H go. Of course he doesn't want to be strung along & that is what you're doing with him. You still have someone waiting in the wings. Your H needs reassurance that you truly want to work on it. If you don't give it to him, then you can't blame him for giving up. He's asking for a real chance at making this marriage work. You're not giving it to him so of course he feels the way he does.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Start by ending it with OM otherwise let your H go. Of course he doesn't want to be strung along & that is what you're doing with him.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just want to say that I do not blame him or criticize him for feeling the way he does. I take full responsibility for what has happened, and what you wrote made it sound as if I can't believe he's reaching the end of his rope. That's not true.<P>Also, I am not "stringing him along". I don't have to "let him go". That is his choice. I am being honest about my feelings with him, and telling him what I want. I have told him on numerous occasions that if he can't handle it anymore, then he should do what he has to for HIM. I don't want to hurt him any more than I have already, so if he's still here, it's HIS choice. I have already told him that if he chooses to file for divorce and wants to move on with his life, then I would not fight it. I would HATE it, because I love him and want so much for us to get through this. I have never been more sincery about anything. But I also want him to do what's best for him. If he's sticking around because he loves me and has hope, then that's his decision.<P>I won't lie and say it's over, just to make it easier on him. If, by saying I want our marriage to work, it makes it harder for him, because it makes him want to stay, there's nothing I can do about that. My love for my H is very much alive in my heart, and I won't deny that, not even to "spare him".<P>I do know, though, that actions speak louder than words. I know what I have to do. But I come here to MB for support for the before, during and after of this whole thing. If I'm not entitled to it "before", so be it.<P>L_I_L<BR>p.s. I went back and re-read this and thought it sounded a bit... harsh. I didn't mean for it to come out that way! I just hate that some people might feel I'm oblivious to what is going on. As we all know, it's a lot easier said than done.<p>[This message has been edited by lost_in_love (edited August 16, 2000).]

LiL,<P>You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He's a good, good man, and I would hate for any of this to make him feel differently, no matter how it turns out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is no chance that he won't "feel differently". No chance at all. That is sadly the situation. This place can help, him, and doing his best will help him face reality, but it won't protect him from the deep pain and self-doubt that this has brought.<P>Heck, LiL even if you dumped OM today and fell madly inlove with your H, he is going to have a lot of healing to do. This thing has severely damaged him. <P>I am sensitive to this because about a year ago I lost a friend to suicide because of his W's affair. They had been childhood sweethearts, married for many years, he coached teams for his kids, and he was extremely successful (he was a very nice guy at work and home). Didn't make any difference. The irony is that he was rich, handsome, nice, and would have had many women after him, once divorced, but that didn't matter.<P>LiL, I am not suggesting your H will do this, but I am telling you there is no way he isn't severely damaged. I do think that is part of the fantasy of an affair. That everyone else will survive and it really won't hurt the kids, the spouse, family. It always does.<P>So whether you want to stay married to your H or not, I think you need to lose the OM for your own sake. Then maybe you two can heal your marriage.<P>Keep posting LiL.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Lost in Love -<P>As a WS, I know exactly how you feel. You don't want to hurt your H but you don't want to hurt the OM either. . .For me, I had to answer this question "WHO would I rather hurt the OM or my H?" The answer for me was somewhat clear - I didn't want to hurt my H. Okay that's the first step . . .<P>Do you want to give your marriage a second chance? Again, for me, the answer was clear - even during the A - I never intended to leave my H.<P>Okay, so in your mind (if you answered the above questions the same as me) you have made a decision - to try and work on your marriage, right? Now it's time to take action. You can't just make a decision and not follow-through, you'll never get anywhere - you'll always be sitting on the fence. The problem is that your H shouldn't have to wait around for you to take action. I know he says that he's willing to wait (that says a lot about him and how much he loves you, you must really be a very special person). You're H is special, too. Maybe you don't feel the same way about him now as when you first got married, maybe you even feel distant. But you can close the gap, get closer, but it won't happen unless you break off the A - no contact.<P>I know all about having my cake and eating it to. Breaking off the A was very hard to do, and maintaining no contact has been even harder, I won't lie to you, it's the truth. But, once you start to take action, it's like a situation that I had no control over (the A) finally became manageable - not easy but tolerable.<P>I don't know. After I told my H about the A, I was "lost" for two months in withdrawl. Then out of the blue, the OM called me. I didn't know how to act, I was finally getting over the OM, and then he calls. In a nutshell, I began talking to the OM again - told him my H and I were trying to work things out, he wanted me to "keep in touch" - kind of like "can we just be friends?"<P>Well, I thought I could be "just friends" with him. About a week after the call, I couldn't bear not telling my H that I had talke to the OM - it was like I didn't want to keep any more secrets. <P>My H wasn't mad and even went as far as to say that if I could promise him that we would only be friends - we could try that. So, I posted the question on this site, can you ever be friends with the OM.<P>Well, I can tell you what the overwhelming response was, and it was accurate. In the end, I knew I would be hurting my H if I stayed friends with the OM - that wasn't fair to him. In some ways, it wasn't even fair to the OM - I would just be leading him on? <P>What came as a real eye-opener was when the contact occurred, for two weeks, emails, phone calls, everything the OM did prior to ending the A started up again. In one message - he even wanted to show me his hotel room??? Talk about playing with fire. . .the only thing that got me through that situation was the fact that I had plans with my H that night that I couldn't get out of. . .So, I blew it off (actually, it was more liked choked on that). <P>Anyway, I guess I realized just how close I came to re-igniting the A. It's that simple. I realized that at one time I COULD have been friends with this OM - but I crossed that line a long time ago, and I could never forget what happened. Besides, why would I want to talk to the person who almost helped me destroy my marriage? It just wasn't worth it, my H was worth more than that, I was worth more than that. Everything I had with the OM was based on lies and deception.<P>I decided that I wasn't going to hurt my H anymore. If, after we tried to rebuild our marriage, we both wanted a divorce, than at least we knew we gave it our best try. I realized that I could not have a marriage and an extramarital relationship.<P>Therefore, I've started on my second round of no contact - its' been 1 1/2 months so far - and honestly, I have absolutely no regrets about the decision I made.<P>So, yes, you will go through withdrawl. Yes, you may end up hurting the OM. Yes, it will be hard. Yes, you will occasionally have doubts. Yes, you will still think about the OM and wonder what life would have been like with him. But, honestly, with time those thoughts and feelings begin to fade and you do get over it. I can say so, because I'm in the same position you are. Do I care that the OM thinks I'm a b----? Not really, as long as my H doesn't think that way.<P>The alternative to not having contact - you will lose your H, you quite possibly will lose his friendship, you will feel responsible for destroying your marriage, when your H finds someone else to love and the OM has left you - you will miss your H, you will have regrets.<P>I know a lot of people will tell you to take that first step and break contact. For me, telling my H about the A was much more painful than telling the OM that I couldn't talk to him anymore (I had to do that twice, so I know how hard it is). But, once I made the commitment to my H that I would break contact - he has been my greatest source of strength. He has been my rock - he's been there for the good times, and now he's here in the bad times. When I go through little bouts of withdrawl, I'm lucky, I have my H to lean on, I'm not alone. <P>You're lucky, too. You're H still loves you even AFter what you have done. That's amazing to me. The Betrayed spouses on this board are amazing to me, too. I don't know how they put up with all the stuff we WSs put them through - maybe that's the real power of love. Don't turn from that. . .Sometimes you never know if you made the right decision or not, but sometimes you have to do things out of faith. No one can see into the future, just trust yourself, trust your H.<P>No one can convince you that breaking it off with the other man is the best thing to do - but it is the right thing to do. I know it seems like you don't have any control over the situation and that your emotions are flying everywhere - but you can reign in those emotions, you can take control. It takes courage, committment and perserverance, but it can be done. <P>The first step, the hardest step in my opinion is getting the A out in the open - dealing with your H's hurt and mistrust - that's hard. So, why not take the second step and break contact - what have you got to lose at this point. Try it, don't let fear stear you into making a bad decision - or no decision at all.<P>I've been in this situation, I know how helpless you can feel. That's why taking action is such a relief, it's empowering, it's putting YOU back in the driver's seat - you can decide which way to stear, you can take actions to go anywhere you want to go. But you can't go anywhere unless you start the engine . . .<P>Hang in there, I know it's tough. You know what you need to do, and I just pray that you find the strength and courage to do the right thing. Take care.<BR>

What hasn't been addressed on this board much (if at all), is what happens way down the road in recovery. No matter how loving your husband is now it could turn at any second, any month or any year. I think this happens more with couples where the BS is working hard on the love deposits and the WS never decides to return the deposits. Eventually they get just plain sick of it and the anger and bitterness starts to rear it's ugly head. Or better yet, wait until the WS totally ends it with the om or ow and falls totally back in love with you. Then let the anger and resentment show it's face and leave them with nobody. No spouse and no om or ow. What I'm trying to tell you is that the longer you sit on the fence the more you'll break your husband down, maybe even without him realizing it. Right now he's so busy trying to win your love and keep his family together that he hasn't really had the time to blame you for some of the pain that he's feeling. He may say he does and he's forgiving but that's tough when your heart is hurting so much. You need to get that letter off to the OM NOW and get your act together. I'm not a betrayed spouse feeling pity for your husband and I'm not a hurt betrayer either. I did leave my husband and marry the other man and we were one of the rare that still love each other very much. But I can tell you now, the husband I have now is a lot like the men on these boards (YOUR HUSBAND INCLUDED) and I never have and never would take a second look at another man. Devoted, loving, intelligent etc... I think you have that with your husband AND I think you know it. Just keep it up (sitting on the fence) and it won't be long before somebody that loves him deeply snatches him up or he decides that you've hurt him beyond repair.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SKM:<BR><B> your emotions are flying everywhere - but you can reign in those emotions, you can take control. It takes courage, committment and perserverance, but it can be done. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SKM - thank you for your post. I know there are a lot of people on this board who are in the same situation... but reading your words was like talking to myself. (Believe me, I've done a lot of that lately!) <P>It helps to know that someone knows exactly what I'm going through, and that you have perservered! It gives me hope.<P>L_I_L

I'm sorry but I want to add one more thing. When I left my husband and the OM left his wife we knew we didn't love them. We never told them we loved them "too". I never ever second guessed my love for the OM and he didn't either. EVEN with this, going through a divorce and realizing all of the pain that you have caused almost destroyed us. I don't mean just us as a couple, but us as a person. Your different. You openly admit that you still love your husband. I can tell you right now honey, if that is truly how you feel you'll never in a million years make it with the OM. I don't know anything about the OM. Don't know if he's married or not. But if he is there is a very good chance he still feels love for his wife. You wanna compete with that?

I am not trying to judge your intentions. I do think you are misjudging your own strength and the consequences of your lack of action.<P>People naturally try to avoid plan or move toward pleasure. When faced with chosing between the two, most will avoid pain. It is natural. Based on your words, it does not seem like you are getting all that much pleasure out of your affair, so it stands to reason you are avoiding pain.<P>But at what cost?<P>Your situation is not standing still. With each passing day you do not take the action you know you must, you are slowly killing your H's spiret. You are weakening the chances of fully recovering from your affair. But those things are not measurable for you. You know them, but the resulting feelings are not as strong as your own personal feelings of fear. <P>The bottem line is addiction or not, you are placing a higher value on avoiding your own pain ahead of what is right, ahead of what you really want, ahead of your vows, ahead of your H, even ahead of the OM. <P>You are being a coward. We all have been and we all will be again. I am really not trying to single you out here. My point is you need to do what you have to do, regardless of the initial pain you will undoubtedly encounter.<P>YOU need to take the action for everyone involved. I am almost certain that YOU taking the initiative will give all of those involved the best chance for true recovery.<P>Maybe you are secretly hoping your H will walk away either to motivate you to action or decrease your choices. Maybe you would feel less guilt or confusion if he was angry and withdrawn rather than hopeful and open.<P>Maybe you are secretly hoping OM would end it to save you from being the bad guy. <P>Any benefit you would gain from that situation, however, you would lose in the recovery of your marriage. It would be harder to your marriage to recover if you went back because the choice was made for you, rather than you made the choice.<P>Since you yourself say you want the marriage, letting OM dictate the terms sounds really pointless.<P>YOU need to take the action. Addiction? Maybe...break it. People do. It can be done, even if it involves great personal pain.<P>Since I am a betrayed spouse, you probibly don't give my words that much value. True I have never put myself into the situation you are now facing.<P>However, just last week I dealt with great emotional trauma. I stayed home to care for my ailing old dog while my H took my kids to a reuinion in a different state. I loved this dog as I will probably love no other animal. She was almost 17, my first dog and I had her before I had kids. She was by any standard a very special dog, smart, athletic, devoted and she thought I was perfect. The last six months I cared for her full time around the clock, because although she was alert and interactive, she could no longer walk. I honestly didn't mind although I had to do a lot of yucky stuff. I promised myself months ago, I would continue to care for her whether I felt like it or not, because it was the right thing to do. I also promised myself if caring for her was no longer in her best interest, then I would let her go regardless of how I felt.<P>I didn't honestly know if I could. I tried to rehearse, but I couldn't even go there, it was too painful. My crutch was my H could take her to the vet because she would be as well supported with him as with me and he was emotionally more capable. I would have to "sign off", but I wouldn't have to go through with it.<P>Wrong. Complications came up when everyone was gone and I had to take care of things myself. I could have had her treated, but it really wasn't a solution and it really wasn't in her best interest. I remembered how I promised I'd make my decision and I did what I didn't want to do with all my heart. Even the last seconds I wanted to scream no, but I had to follow through. To be honest, it was horrible. I spontaniously broke out from chin to tummy in some horrible rash that I am now on medication for. I cry everyday because I miss her. <P>However, the horrible images of that day are beginning to fade. I even realize I probably did a lot of grieving in these last few months and I am moving forward more quickly than I would have imagined. Even though actually going through with putting her to sleep was as horrible as I could have imagined, I know I did what I had to do and I'm not beating myself up.<P>In fact, it is empowering to confront your worse fear and act on it anyway. Never thought of that before. I never anticipated and "up" side to this saga.<P>Now I know this isn't the same and you don't care a hoot about my dog. <P>But try to look at a bit objectively at what you are doing and not doing.<P>Are you acting on your convictions or are you acting on your own fear.<P>If you do what you are sure you can not, you will be doing your H more good than you can know. In the long run, you will be doing OM a favor. You will be giving your marriage a better chance of succeeding. But most of all you will experience personal growth beyond what you can imagine, and that will fuel your personal recovery, whatever may come in your future.<P>Do you really want to avoid pain and pay the costs? <P>Or would you like act on your convictions, and take charge of your own destiny and reap the hard fought rewards.<P>Whether or not you choose to admit it, YOU are responsible and accountable for your life. Act accordingly, ultimately you won't be sorry.

Going back to your original question re: how do BS hang on? Yes it's faith & hope but it's also the ACTIONS that the WS takes - at least in my case. I never asked my H to make a life-time commitment to our marriage - that will happen in time. I never asked my H is he in love with me again - that will happen in time. I gave him an ultimatum - either work on the marriage which means ending it with OW or leave. He ended it with her because he believes 'we' deserve a real chance to making it work. He never gave me that opportunity because at first he lied & always said he was happy, nothing was bothering him etc etc & then he had the A. Whatever problem there is in a relationship cannot be resolved with an A. The A is a temporary solution, a place to hide as far as I can see.<BR>I didn't mean to sound harsh - I just wanted you to be clear as to what you want. If you're afraid your H is letting go then take that step & end it with OM.. Believe that this is the right thing to do & even though you may be 100% sure, believe that in time you won't question the decision to remain with your H.<BR>Give your H the strength. I wanted to give up so many times because my H was still in contact with OW. Finally he was at the point when he almost lost me & this gave him a sickening feeling. So then he took the right steps. You're both hurting. You know this is hurting your H so end it. <BR>And remember that you haven't even entered the withdrawal period. That's a whole other stage that you will have to be strong to go through.

for those wondering before...I am the husband of lost_in_love. I posted a little bit separately before. Thanks to all who are trying to help us through this dark and trying time.<P>SmallSteps4Now

Going back to your original question re: how do BS hang on? Yes it's faith & hope but it's also the ACTIONS that the WS takes - at least in my case. I never asked my H to make a life-time commitment to our marriage - that will happen in time. I never asked my H is he in love with me again - that will happen in time. I gave him an ultimatum - either work on the marriage which means ending it with OW or leave. He ended it with her because he believes 'we' deserve a real chance to making it work. He never gave me that opportunity because at first he lied & always said he was happy, nothing was bothering him etc etc & then he had the A. Whatever problem there is in a relationship cannot be resolved with an A. The A is a temporary solution, a place to hide as far as I can see.<BR>I didn't mean to sound harsh - I just wanted you to be clear as to what you want. If you're afraid your H is letting go then take that step & end it with OM.. Believe that this is the right thing to do & even though you may be 100% sure, believe that in time you won't question the decision to remain with your H.<BR>Give your H the strength. I wanted to give up so many times because my H was still in contact with OW. Finally he was at the point when he almost lost me & this gave him a sickening feeling. So then he took the right steps. You're both hurting. You know this is hurting your H so end it. <BR>And remember that you haven't even entered the withdrawal period. That's a whole other stage that you will have to be strong to go through.