Questions and comments; in reading thru the profiles, I am amazed at the huge numbers of extra-marital affairs that start on-line. What's up with that?<P>People are lonely, and looking for excitement. A chat room seems to be the place to go to meet people and voice yourself. But how is it that you can start an affair right from your own household, with your family all around you, your spouse included?<P>If you need to talk to someone THAT bad, how about your spouse? The #1 person who you should be communicating with?<P>Just because you can type your thoughts and dreams into a machine and recieve a response, does that mean that the person that is recieving them and reciprocating is your "soulmate?" Isn't it evident that in writing, an individual can "make themselves over," and share thoughts that they would never take action on (like "deeply-rooted" faith in God that is actually hypocrasy and a lot of talking out the butt.) <P>And in seeing "you" on-line, the other can praise your percieved attributes while never knowing your faults. Wouldn't that be evident that this is not "real?"<P>This IS a fantasy world, this kind of relationship, but it seems so prevelent now-a-days.<P>This is how my H's affair started, and it makes me feel all the more betrayed, because the whole time he was getting hooked on "talking" to his new friend, I was busting my butt to make a connection to him. My H should have never been lonely--he had me, and I loved and cared and wanted oh so badly to "talk" to him. The newness of his on-line relationship became a priority and he pushed me aside to pursue it.<P> Incidentally, we were apart at the time due to being in two separate duty stations; I thought that this was the perfect opportunity for us to grow closer, without any of the LB-ing that had been prevelant in our relationship. (We have a problem with debating about everything. You know, the stress of daily living in "real life.") I wanted him to get to know the real me (he was already familiar with my faults and had hopefully accepted them.) <P>Everyday, I would pray that he had written to me, and everyday, nothing but: "Went out for a few beers last night. C Ya." But for his new "relationship," he would pour his heart out.<P>This is what hurts so much. He did not even give me a "chance" to show him what I was really about and how much I loved him.<P>I am sure that many of you can relate. This is just an extra slap in the face.<P>Every time I log on and see bolshoi banners advertising new chatrooms "SEX!" "ROMANCE!" "MEET THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE!" "SINGLES DATING SERVICE!" I just want to puke. It's like waving a red flag in front of a bull for some people. Why is this such an attraction? What is wrong with the love of your life being your spouse? What is wrong with romance with you husband/wife? <P>And why do some people figure it's not a big deal to pursue an on-line relationship?<P>I read something about this on Dr Peggy Vaughn's website, it was very insiteful. But I was wondering if anyone who began their relationship on-line would like to respond? How did you get hooked? How does "chat" lead to real-life sex as an end-product?<P>

Hey...Bernzini....<P>Think about what you are asking here?<P>Just communicating here at MB...are YOU not 'online' at this moment communicating with people?<P>Are many of the people here...hurting and bearing their heart and souls..."online"???<P>Do you not hear many people express their appreciation for all the 'love and support' they get from folks here at MB...while being "online"???<P>So why would it seem so odd...that people who happen to "meet online"...would become 'involved' after some point in time.<P>Not trying to jump on you here...but just wanting you to look at your question again. <p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited August 16, 2000).]

Exactly, that thought has thoroughly crossed my mind. I am not asking a a rhetorical question, I don't think.<P>I talk to you guys, I enjoy it, but I really doubt that I am "in love" with any of you. I think that the huge majority of you are wonderful people with real emotions and real lives, ect. Some of you are a real kick in the pants and it would be cool to meet some of you. But I can see it for what it is: a forum for people that are dealing with the pain for infidelity. I don't "know" anyone here. <P>In fact, when a member of my "real" family needs me, I can shut the PC down and go about my business. No big deal. No hurt feelings, as far as I know.<P>What I am stressing here--why, when you have your family all around you in your home, interacting with you, can you just go into a room and shut them off, ignore them? Wouldn't it be obvious from the start that that's what you are doing? More so than a co-worker romance involving people that you HAVE to interact with? Involving your best friend's spouse--someone that you can't help really avoiding until it's too late. An on-line romance seems to be a CHOICE, a completely in-your-face choice when the people you love are just a few steps away in another room.<P>If you find someone that is interesting on line, it would seems simple enough to just turn the box on and off, like the tv, when it seems that your friendship is affecting time spent in your real life.<P>And why the attraction in the first place? Why is it necessary to go on-line to find friendship? Dr. Vaughn sez that the majority of people who would otherwise not be tempted to an affair are finding themselves hooked to someone in cyberspace.<P>That's my question.

I think it is all about some form of "connecting" !<P>Be it in a bowling alley...a bar...church...the supermarket...there is a "meeting" of hearts and minds that take place. What makes these more interesting it seems...is that they are not based or started on outward appearances. So that makes it all the more intense...where people cut through the veneer...and open up. And, seemingly...accepted for who and what they are. The rest...is 'history'. <P>I'm not saying this is ideal or 'right'. But obviously, with as many who are 'connecting' out there...there must be something to it.<P>I've known people who have lived together under the same roof for years...and wouldn't have a clue to what it meant to 'connect' with one another. SO when they find someone...even on a chat room...who seems to understand them....listen to them...etc...it produces an incredible sense of excitement and wonderment. And obviously...if that was already taking place at home, seems like they would be less suseptible finding it elsewhere.

I have to say I agree with lighthouse. My wife had an IA, but it never turned physical because he was 1600 miles away. She did send him lot of nude photos of herself though. That's how I found out. I was looking for some stuff on the hard drive that had been erased and found them. I think this got started because she felt she couldn't talk to me. Then when I did try to get her to talk to me she would say not much was going on and then stay up all night talking to him. I think the internet has opened up so much instant communication with anybody anywhere, that when you feel you can't talk to you spouse you can log on and talk to anybody. My wife still needs to log on as often as possible and check her email and a BB that she talks to people on. Even though I may be right there and would like to spend time with her. The only time I get on is to check this BB real quick and that is during my lunch or when I get home from work and she's not home yet. I would ather spend all my time with her. Sorry rambling!! Ooops got to go lunch is over. <BR>

Also, if I add my 2 cents, there may be that "new relationship" thrill. It may be intensified because the distraction of the physical aspects is not there? It may be an affair made in shorthand?<P>Maybe the imagination can fool those of us who may currently be vulnerable but not realize it, even when it is too late?<P>Just a thought...<BR>rrunrr<BR>

I think there's an illusion of safety that people associate with the internet communication. If I say something here that's potentially volatile or personally embarassing, I take the risk that one of you out there might be offended or angered. But the risk is lessened because your reaction to what I say is easy to bypass. I can flip the switch and ignore the reaction - after all, is it likely that I'll ever meet one of you people in person? Not very. And if I do happen to be walking down the sidewalk when another MB poster or lurker walks by, I'll never know it and neither will they.<P>Normal societal constraints aren't so constraining under these conditions. I can be offensive if I want to, and I don't need to fear anybody's potentially angry or violent reaction. I can tell you I'm anything I want to be, when I'm really an overweight, near-sighted, balding, middle-aged man and you'll never know the difference.<P>Even though I understand what little I do, I'm just as amazed as you are, Bernzini. I find it utterly and completely astounding that people can get on the internet, talk in a chatroom, and believe that they are falling in love with someone they've never even met. My W did it, and so did the OM.<P>Slightly Sane<P>

I agree that the lure of the internet brings with it anonymity and ability to shut things off when you feel like it.<P>My H didn't start his A via the internet, but he maintained it that way since the OW lived in another country. Affairs breed on secrecy and there are so many ways to communicate secretly online. <P>After I discovered the affair,I found a secret email account my H had opened. I never knew just how easily you could sign up for an account w/o a real name, or software etc. I got a real education. I started going into chat rooms (where they would meet- then go private) to see for myself what really happened. <P>It is really astounding what is said and done online. So much of the online activity is about sex. So it is all out there for the taking. Unfortunately, if someone is weak, vulnerable or looking-- an affair can start or can be concealed this way.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lighthouse:<BR><B>Hey...Bernzini....<P>Think about what you are asking here?<P>Just communicating here at MB...are YOU not 'online' at this moment communicating with people?<P>Are many of the people here...hurting and bearing their heart and souls..."online"???<P>Do you not hear many people express their appreciation for all the 'love and support' they get from folks here at MB...while being "online"???<P>So why would it seem so odd...that people who happen to "meet online"...would become 'involved' after some point in time.<P>Not trying to jump on you here...but just wanting you to look at your question again. <P>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited August 16, 2000).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Lighthouse,<BR> Being a "betrayer" whos A started online I have to agree with your comments. There are reasons why A's begin online or any other meeting ground. What SOME BS's fail to realize or maybe even admit is that, there were some emotional needs not being met by them aswell. That is how it started for me. I wasn't looking for someone online or anywhere else to fullfil my emotional needs...I just found them being met. I'm not going to get into my story on here yet. I'm new and still want & need to "lurk" a bit before opening up so please bear with me.<BR>What I will say is that, I tried to communicate with my now BS but they didn't listen to me. I tried to make plans for outtings together, just the two of us but those attempts failed also. I tried to tell my BS many times my feelings about how I felt that our realationship was falling apart & that I felt that I wanted/needed to leave but those attempts went unanswered as well. The only feed back I had gotton back was that...I complain too much etc.<BR> By the time my BS realized how serious I was..it was too late. I had lost many feelings for my BS. I loved my BS (still do) but I'M not "in love" with my BS. <BR>Anyhow before this post gets any longer...my original point was that the "Betrayer" is not always as selfish as they are made out to be. Selfish is not listening to all the warning signs before someone becomes Betrayed then blaming the "Betrayer" for not caring anymore.Its almost like the Plan B that I have read about on here...sooner or later you've tried the best you can and now the only thing left to do is end it. The reason some people become betrayed is because there was a window of opportunity for it to happen. Some of the Betrayed have to think really hard about what maybe they could have done to help prevent the A from happening in the first place and use what they have learned in their next longterm realationship instead of pointing all of the blame on the Betrayer. The blame HAS to be shared in many cases.<BR>I hope I haven't offended anyone... its not my intentions .I was just voicing (typing..lol) my views on the subject.<P>Good Luck to you all..<P><BR>

EWO:<P>A betrayed is NEVER to blame for an affair. The betrayer makes a totally selfish choice to have the affair. It is a CHOICE. The betrayer has other options if the marriage is not happy : get a divorce/separation before getting involved with someone else.<P>The betrayed may or may not have contributed a creating a marriage that was vulnerable to the affair but is never for responsible for the betrayer choice to have the affair. Affairs happen for reasons beside unmet needs, Midlife crisis, depression/mental illness etc.<BR>

eyeswideopen...<P>Let me say that Dr. Harley points out well that while there are no 'excuses' for affairs, there are 'reasons'.<P>I appreciate your hesitation to jump in here on this forum. I have followed many of the stories. I jumped in my first time on a thread by someone called 'nomas'. I think he wore his welcome out here after posting so much about what you and others since him have discussed. I have not felt the liberty to share my story here...just try to offer support and encouragement to others. But it is one similar to his and yours and others.<P>TDM is correct...you can't 'blame' the betrayed....but you can't deny the fact that the 'bs' played a role in the discontenment at home. <P>Some betrayed spouses tend to think their WS went 'looking' for someone. But I agree with you...you just find them being 'met' and before you know it...you get 'sucked' into something...that is so destructive...yet so wonderfuly addictive. Welcome to the club. You will hear it all around here if you stay around long enough.

Bernzini,<P>I think I can interject here. I have been on both sides of this issue, because I met my H online (he was not married though so don't shoot me anyone) I think that even makes it MORE of a betrayal that that's how his affair started.<P>I am speaking from my own experience, so I hope I don't offend anyone. This is just my opinion!I think that when you meet someone online, it's much easier to enjoy the GOOD times and avoid the bad stuff. Your time together is limited, so you spend it making each other feel good. You create a world just of your own--it's almost like you and me against the world. Vilify everyone else--we are the good ones and THEY are out to get us. <P>I also believe you can show what is good about you, but don't have to show the bad. I think that is purposeful and all tooooooooo easy. And for people who are quite eloquent, like my H, they can talk their way into or out of anything. He's very charming and someone looking for a good ear has got it with him (except for me). He LOVES to rescue people and some women are all over that! <P>The first thing I noticed about my H online was that he said all the right things. BUT what I NEVER saw was his anger, or his negative feelings. Everything was always wonderful and perfect and great. Once we actually got together and spent REAL time together, then I saw his flaws. Up until then, he was the perfect guy...I think the WORST part about that is that frequently you are in love before you actually KNOW the real person. It's kinda scary because at that point I think you are willing to put up with more because you feel that it's a deep relationship. I deluded myself into thinking that I knew him soooo well because all we did was talk all the time. I mean, I spent every night on the phone (it was LD) chatting and conversing. But you know what??? I WAS DEAD WRONG. I only learned who he really was by living with him on a daily basis and seeing his interactions with the world. Before that, I knew only what HE wanted me to know.<P>I believe it's all too easy to meet people online who will meet your needs, whatever those needs may be. The thing that most people overlook is that those OTHER people are out there trying to get THEIR needs met too. My H was having an affair with a married woman. He said that her H didn't understand her either. So, what was the bond between them based on? Mutal anger at their spouses. Since when is this a great beginning for a relationship???<P>

The server is down at my house, I had to come to Kinkos to check my e-mail, don't have a lot of time to respond, but I am so worked up about this, I have to.<P>Okay, like I said, I did everything that I could (emotional needs, whatever) to reach my husband. But his little on-line friendship got to be way more interesting than boring ol me. He literally shut me down because I was "real time." I came with responsbility. She didn't.<P>Must have been the means of communicating. She never saw him eat pork and beans right out of the can and pick his nose while he was talking to her. She didn't care whether he had his boots on the couch while he was on-line. In her eyes "the great melding of minds" had occured; he could type anything that sounded good to her, and he was all of the sudden a Greek god of wisdom.<P>It's kind of hard to have a virtual temper tantrum, now isn't it?<P>This is why this is not fair, and I am still angry about it. I don't care how smart and witty someone is, typing into a machine. It doesn't mean that they are a moral person--they just make themselves sound like it.<P>In real time, you know by a person's actions what they are about.<P>Gotta go--told the kid that if he was good in Kinko's, I'd take him next door to Toy'sR Us. He's lived up to his promise. C Ya

Hello Bernzini,<P>This is a great string of posts.<P>I was also caught up in an IA. *rolling eyes* It has been a long time since I have talked about this but I know that all the discussion about the perfectness of the person online is SOOOOOO correct. But I did want to try to shed some light on the ADDICTION part of the IA. If he has shown any signs of depression he may be looking for that good feeling. I know that is what I was looking for when I found the Internet Chat game. The attention was great and it gave me a temparary High everytime I would chat. Then I found a man that was willing to give me the world....ON THE INTERNET???? How imbarrassing this is now. *sigh* But I was addicted and it all made me feel good and I thought he was what I needed to be happy because everytime I had conversations with him I would get that high. <P>I did eventually end it and it wasn't easy ... I still long for the feelings he gave me but am aware of the unrealisticness of those feelings. The way I look at it is like an Alcoholic or a smoker, you get the good feelings for awhile but then you need more and more until there is not enough to make you happy but you are addicted to it now. I don't know, I hope I am making sense to someone...LOL<P>again, great string. *s*<P>

QUOTE]Originally posted by Eyes Wide Open:<BR><B> Hi Lighthouse,<BR> Being a "betrayer" whos A started online I have to agree with your comments. There are reasons why A's begin online or any other meeting ground. What SOME BS's fail to realize or maybe even admit is that, there were some emotional needs not being met by them aswell. That is how it started for me. I wasn't looking for someone online or anywhere else to fullfil my emotional needs...I just found them being met. I'm not going to get into my story on here yet. I'm new and still want & need to "lurk" a bit before opening up so please bear with me.<BR>What I will say is that, I tried to communicate with my now BS but they didn't listen to me. I tried to make plans for outtings together, just the two of us but those attempts failed also. I tried to tell my BS many times my feelings about how I felt that our realationship was falling apart & that I felt that I wanted/needed to leave but those attempts went unanswered as well. The only feed back I had gotton back was that...I complain too much etc.<BR> By the time my BS realized how serious I was..it was too late. I had lost many feelings for my BS. I loved my BS (still do) but I'M not "in love" with my BS. <BR>Anyhow before this post gets any longer...my original point was that the "Betrayer" is not always as selfish as they are made out to be. Selfish is not listening to all the warning signs before someone becomes Betrayed then blaming the "Betrayer" for not caring anymore.Its almost like the Plan B that I have read about on here...sooner or later you've tried the best you can and now the only thing left to do is end it. The reason some people become betrayed is because there was a window of opportunity for it to happen. Some of the Betrayed have to think really hard about what maybe they could have done to help prevent the A from happening in the first place and use what they have learned in their next longterm realationship instead of pointing all of the blame on the Betrayer. The blame HAS to be shared in many cases.<BR>I hope I haven't offended anyone... its not my intentions .I was just voicing (typing..lol) my views on the subject.<P>Good Luck to you all..<P></B>[/QUOTE]<P> First of all, i do not deny that i may have failed to meet some of my wifes emotional needs. To say that thats a REASON for having an affair is selfish!!!<P> TMD put it very well. If your emotional needs were not being met than other measures should have been taken. <P> During my wifes affair of two and a half years, that means she was simply being selfish!!! <P> I know that when i felt something was wrong , which was almost immediately, i tried very hard to make my wife happy. She cared nothing about my emotional needs whatsoever. I wasn't quite sure but new something was wrong. Online had become her world and i couldn't compete. <P> You wrote>>>>>Selfish is not listening to all the warning signs before someone becomes Betrayed then blaming the "Betrayer" for not caring anymore. <BR> Now that, i feel, was a selfish statement.<P> We are all guilty of failing to meet all of each others emotional needs at one time or another. It's called being human, not selfish. No one chooses to ignore their spouses emotional needs or "Warning signs" unless they really didn't love them, which in my case, i love my wife very much!! <P> Read over your post again Eyes, and really think about what you really said there......<P> You may as well have just written one word that would have summed it all up............SELFISH!!!<P>

Bernzini...<P>I can understand why you are so upset about this. It upsets me too, and it is very unfair. But take some comfort in the fact that it is NOT very real, just for the reasons that you mentioned. You can't love someone without really and truly knowing them. You love who you THINK they are.<P>I feel that online relationships can be a form of infatuation or puppy love. It's a very immature kind of love and not built on reality. No relationship built solely on infatuation or puppy love will last throughout eternity. It's gotta move onto a deeper level and I don't mean sex at all. I feel that in order to truly love someone you have to truly know them and to know them is to go through life experience with them--good and bad.<P>Texasgal makes a good point. If there is some sort of depression or addiction there, online stuff can feed that like nothing else. Think about how EASY it is. Just like you were saying about your H's habits, you don't have to go out and buy new clothes or even bathe if you don't want to. You can be a slob or a jerk, as long as you type all the right stuff to the other person. If that person finds you witty and entertaining and thinks you are wonderful, you will get a high from it. And when you feel good, you keep going back for more. It becomes an addictive cycle. Minimal investment, awesome return.<P>On the flip side, talking to one's spouse can be the opposite. It can be painful and time consuming. It can be frustrating and anger inducing. BIG investment, questionable return. My H does not deal with conflict well. And he always blames others for his troubles. He does not take responsibility. I personally don't believe that I make it difficult for my spouse to talk to me. So for him it's much easier to go online and chat with someone who doesn't know he yells and screams when he gets angry...who doesn't know that he doesn't pick up after himself, that he doesn't pay attention to his one and only child...that he spends money without regard for the welfare of his family...etc etc etc!!<P>I feel you are justified in being very angry and I'm right there with you! I understand, it's not very fair, and it certainly is not something that you deserve.

My H's OW started as an on-line thing. Now they get together at least one day each week, and have been doing this for (as far as I can tell) betwee a year and a half and two years. When he told me he had an on-line friend, I thought he was pathetic and didn't believe it could ever get serious. Plus, she lived half a state away, so who cared if they "talked" on their computers? I made jokes to our relatives about his "computer girlfriend," and I was sure that anything she was telling him was probably bullcrap. That she was probably a 400 pound senior citizen in real life.<BR> And I figured that my H, who is a good 30 pounds overwight and mostly bald now, was probably doing the same thing. <BR>WRONG! They were sharing life histories and photos and dreams for a great future and intimate details of their marriages!<BR> Now they have such an addiction to each other that they can't go for one day without contact, and they are driving across the state to meet at least once a week.<BR> NO, I am NOT to blame for my H choosing to have an affair, but something that Eyes Wide Open says is very true. I really was a terrible Love-buster for a long time in certain ways, and I cannot seem to ever get comfortable talking about my life with anyone (H included), although our counselor is helping with this.<BR> My H DID write letters tome more than once where he asked me to open up and be more of a friend to him and to not put him down so much, and I never wrote back. And he ask me to go to counseling with him many times, but I never would, until I knew he had somebody else interested in him. So now he feels like I am only going because I am over a barrel. And now I feel like he is holding all the cards because I am the one who wants to make this marriage last, and he is the one who feels like he has already tried enough. And he is in a MLC, so it's extra bad.<BR> I have seen some of their e-mails, and it is true that he feels free to say things to his OW that he would never say to me. But he doesn't have to see her after he says them, and that makes it different. <BR> So don't ever think the online stuff somehow doesn't "count" as much as the real-life stuff. It is probably even more dangerous.

Cheerleader,<P>I'm sorry for your situation. It sounds really rough. <P>I do believe that online relationships CAN and DO lead somewhere...as I said in my original post that's how I met my H! BUT I believe that unless they go to real time committment, they are based on nothing more than a fantasy.<P>Believe me, I was once the golden angel. I was the one my H ran home to talk to online, or spent hours composing email to. I was the one he talked to about all the previous women who had screwed him over. I was there and I listened and I understood him...that's what he used to say. We "fell in love" in a matter of weeks because all we did was talk to each other. I remember spending 6 hours each night on the phone with him. What a rush! I had never been able to talk to anyone that way. These days we hardly speak.<P>*I* have become, in his mind, the unloving, uncaring woman that he talks to OW about--just as he used to tell me all about these other women. He claims I don't listen to him and I don't understand him at all, yet I am the same person he met online. It's just that once the expectations started rolling in, the dynamic changed in a DRASTIC way. Up until then he had his life and I had mine, and we sort of "visited" each other's lives for a while. But once we shared a life together, it went downhill rather quickly. <P>So, even if online relationships move forward, there can be serious challenges ahead, especially if they start in the context of an affair or rebound from a bad relationship which is the most negative way any relationship can start.