<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ktgirl:<BR><B>Why would a man who had never cheated in over 8 years just suddently decide to follow his "little head" into something that could end his marriage?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not thinking that he would ever be caught or found out, and while this is no excuse, the "little head" has been known to take total control of a man's "big head."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And he was getting plenty of sex with me, so I don't understand the sudden need.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It doesn't matter how much sex he was getting at home, it doesn't matter how attractive his spouse is, when a man's little head starts doing the thinking for him, it's pretty much a done deal. It has been said that men can't think with their big heads because all the blood has rushed to their little heads.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I am just about accepting the fact that for some crazy reason she met some EN's that I wasn't at the time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't beat yourself up about not meeting some EN. I really don't think it was about that. I really do believe that it was more about an aggressive woman serving up sex to your husband on a silver platter, and for many men, not all, but for many men, it's an opportunity that can't be passed up. I'm not saying that it is right, because it's not, but we men do tend to think with our di**s.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>....but God sometimes you guys just drive me nuts. You are so freakin complicated, and just when I think I have you all figured out, you change.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have said this very thing myself on many occasions, but I have said it about women.

Can this message get through? i seem to have been erased from the username file. This is a test.<P>Okay. It worked this time. <P>KtGirl-<BR>I am writing this again because the last one I wrote got eaten by the web site! What I was saying was, I think self esteem does have a lot to do with it, even if the men say it is their "lil head" doing the talking. But if their self esteem was up, they would not even listen. In 1996, my h and I went on a tour to Europe. A divorcee hit on him every nite of the trip and she was a sex maniac. He did not succumb, and I was not present every time she hit on him. And we all had hotel rooms. But I remember him saying to me how flattered he was.<P>By the time he met the OW(1999), his esteem must have been low. He talked to her for a week( at a week long product show) before getting together with her in her city on his next business trip. He started the PA then. I assume he got instantly addicted, and so did she, is my guess.<P>I think home pressures also have a lot to do with it. Sibling rivalry and fighting, money shortages(him spending too much on himself.), Expressing my dislike and concern for his drinking habits. I think escape, to someone who doesn't take the time to learn to cope with these pressures, is inevitable. I just didn't see it then. I still want him to choose his family, though. But he has a lot of work to do to meet MY EN's. He has not considered them in a long time. <p>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited August 21, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by burnedspouse:<BR><B>.....I think self esteem does have a lot to do with it, even if the men say it is their "lil head" doing the talking. But if their self esteem was up, they would not even listen.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In "some" cases you are absolutely correct, but I don't know if I would agree with this in "most" cases. Sex is very, very powerful for men, which is why it is for most of us our #1 EN. Studies have been done showing how often men have sexual thoughts, which is quite often by the way. The thoughts, the drives, the urges to have sex with many different women is primal, because of our morals, values, religious beliefs, etc.., most men don't go around having sex with many different women, but given the right opportunity, many, many men have succumbed to those urges, and being a man, I don't believe that self-esteem played a part in most of these situations. I think that for the most part, most if not all men "listen" to their little heads, it's just that there are a lot of men that "choose" not to always follow where the little head tries to leads them.

ktgirl<P>I will answer on behalf of a betrayer. The OW that I was involved with was not overweight, she was attractive, and friendly. My affair with her did not involve sex. Our relationship grew out of a long term friendship and conversation. My W was everything to me and I had no REAL reason to cheat. But I did. For the past year I have tried to answer the WHY part of it. and there was not anything I could put my finger on until now.<P>I talked to her on the phone, e-mailed her, met her from time to time, and stopped by her house to see her. What did she do for me that my W couldn't? Nothing! But, the one thing that was there was the fact that she made me feel good to talk to her. She had problems in her marriage and she always asked me for advice on what to do. I honestly thought I was helping when all I was doing was further destroying their marriage as well as mine. With her I felt like we could talk about anyting and I felt like I could be open with her. Most men want a woman to adore them and put them high on a pedestal. When a person gets this high with ego, blindness sets in. We are not only blind to the physical appearance, but blind to everything that is going on around us. Most people in affairs always say they don't know what happened. True to some extent. But we did make a decision to start conversation and take that first step. That was the begining of the downfall.<P>Keep one thing in mind and this I know for sure, no affair will ever last. The OW that I was involved with was not what I thought she was, and far from it. We always see people for what they really are once the fog lifts. The fog has lifted for me and now I can see. The OW in your H's life had done one thing for him, boosted his ego. Period! When the bubble burst it will be a long way down. Be there to catch and you will be the one that he can see clearly, for everything that is important.<P>He is not thinking straight, take my word on that one.<P>Hope I helped some.....fs<p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited August 21, 2000).]

Perhaps that as needs are being met, and we are drawn closer to the fog; we begin to see through our hearts, instead of our eyes.

Perhaps that as needs are being met, and we are drawn closer to the fog; we begin to see through our hearts, instead of our eyes.

Hi Firestorm,<P>I hope you can help me. My H is in an affair. He and OW have lots and lots of sex. They also have an OC together. <P>I read what you posted on this thread about it not lasting. I really wonder if it could be true in my case. I wonder if they have something together (OC & wild sex) that my H doesn't have with me. I worry that it will last and H may eventially marry OW, whether it be from guilt, sex, manipulation or OC, I worry it might happen.<P>Being an Betrayer, I would like to know what you think about my situation.<P>Thanks!<BR>Jo

Hi Resilient,<P>First question. Is the OW married? In my case she was. Her and her H had a big blow up, she left, told her H that I was the one that was after her, I was going to marry her, in other words, most of what she said she tried to make it look like it was all my fault. She made me look like a fool. Hey, I was. When I saw her for the liar and cheat that she is, and how fast she turned on me, I was out of it. All feelings vanished in thin air. Do I want back in any relationship with her, or any other woman? Not a chance. The reason, my W was the one that was there when I fell. Although we are damaged for life, we still love each other.<P>Some affairs do end up in marriage. But, if they do, what are they based on? LIES. Why would any man want to marry someone that they know would cheat? Why would any woman? My advice, do what is right. What is right is in your heart and you will know through all the pain, you were the one that did what was right. One day he will have to live with his lies, I know. This is painful for you now, but one day it will be painful for him and the pain will be by his own hands.<P>fs

Firestorm,<P>My H did very similar to you. His self esteem was down, problems at work, financial worries, family obligations (both of our parents), life to busy on both of our parts.<P>He started talking to her, she complained about her marriage. EA starts. Eight months later both leave their spouses and are living together. He left us Friday 2 weeks ago. Total lifestyle change. Both working 2 jobs. She has 14 yr old S. Our 11 yr old D has been thrown to the wayside. H expects D and me to just accept this and get over it?????<P>This situation is moving so fast. She is pushing him to file for custody and divorce already.<P>I love my H. I am willing to wait this out and be there when he falls. I am willing to do anything we need to do the rebuild. He is blind and deaf. He is still lying and being secretive to me and it is out in the open. <P>I have backed off, given him his freedom, do not call, do not fight or be disrespectful. I was doing all the right stuff since I found out but had been doing all the wrong stuff before I knew anything.<P>Where do we go from here? I want to save my marriage. I do not want a divorce.

FA,<BR> Thank you so much for your input on this. It's amazing, how I always knew this happened because of me alone, something I didn't do, something I didn't say. Now that I've asked about it, it seems as though each answer is telling me that it had nothing to do with me. It has to do with him. It was his decision, and although I will probably never understand why, he will or does know deep down. I am beginning to think it's not so important that I know. I think from now on that I want to focus on the fact that he has chosen me, and we want to rebuild our marriage. He knows of the pain he caused, and while I can't say it is all gone, or will ever be, I do know that when I talk to him, I feel much better about things. Not because of what he is saying, so much, because words can lie. What matters to me is what he does, and he is proving that the man I loved for so long, still exists, and still loves me, and me alone. Maybe this is as well as I need to understand this man. <P>So guys look at us as being confusing too!!! Nice to know, that as different as men and women are, we really aren't that different after all. Thanks again.<BR>

Burnedspouse,<BR> We definitely had a lot of home pressures going on. No matter how much we brought home it never seemed enough to cover all the bills, and then you have kids in school, adding clothing expenses, lunches,etc. It was just endless. Cars breaking down, needing new this or new that. Just thinking about the bills gave me a headache. I guess it was some kind of escape for him where he didn't have to deal with the pressures. Thanks for your answer. I guess the only real answer is that things just happen for a myriad of reasons. Trying to pin it exactly down to one, is probably just a waste of my time, when my energies could be better used elsewhere. Maybe I am finally getting tired enough of this obessession with the why's. Now if only I could rid myself of the thoughts of OW, I'd be just fine. But I am still very angry when it comes to her, because she won't leave us alone. In time, maybe. Thanks again.

Firestorm,<BR> Thank you also, for your reply. I have enough information on this now, with all the replies that i have received to know that it is a difficult issue to find a definite answer for. I want to thank you for being open about a subject that is very private for everyone. Your input has been appreciated.

Firestorm<P>I have a question too. My H's A has not had a lot of sex in it. yes they have been involved for more than a year,but she lives across the country and his business or family matters do not take him back that often. It has really only been a half dozen or more encounters in all. Sure once he was there it was probably every night, but still. He still is in love with her and not made a decision. We are in limbo. But I wanted to know what you thought of this A.<BR>BS

I Believe<P>I am definately not an expert on solving the problems of infidility. But, I can offer my views from our situation. I have two children both still at home. My D is 17 years old and a senior in high school this year. She is the apple of my eye and my reason to survive this whole mess. Through all of this she has been there for me to give me a hug when I need it and to offer words of encouragment. She is very involved in sports so both my W and I spend a great amount of time together with her. I believe when all this is behind us, and it will be, we can look back and say the she is the one that helped keep us together.<P>When I got involved with the OW, I lost focus of all that was right in the world. My W has told me that I am not the man she married, she is right. My W and I have been working to put our relationship back together, she more than I. I have not done my part and even did more damage by talking to the OW whe she called me recently asking for help. I think eventually betrayers will come around and see things for what they are. Your D will probably be the first thought in his mind of his real life. It was for me.<P>Does she know why he left? One thing my W did during all of this was never talk negative about me to our D. Of the many reasons I still love her, that was a big one. He is not thinking rationally now, none of us do. But be positive about your future as best as you can and always tell your D that your H is a good father, man, and a good H. If she feels positive about him, one day she will help lead him back. He will miss her once he figures out what year it is and where he is. As I said before, affairs NEVER last.<P>fs

Hi Leilana,<P>Was browsing through this thread and saw some interesting things. What are profiles? Some seem so in awe with the information you have given.<P>Anyway, though I'd give it a try. <BR>My birthdate (1/2/59)<BR>His birthdate (7/8/54)<BR>Wish I knew OW's birthdate; only know she turned 49 or 50 this year, sometime between May and mid-July). I'll see if I can find out from H tonight.<P>How do you get information to me? Do you need my email? How do I get it to you without posting here?<P>Thanks, sdn

Burnedspouse<BR>I have to admit that one thing I do not understand is internet affairs. I had to know who I as talking to to develope an interest. Since your H has met the OW "in person" I do kind of see his situation. Physical contact always gives you something to hang on to or remember. Probably 90% of the contact that I had with the OW was either over the phone or through e-mail and she lived about a half mile away.<P>I know there were things that we talked about that kept the interest going. Some of the things she said to me kept my interest and boosted my ego. That is one thing that was necessary to keep me involved. We talked about dreams, childhood memories, and things we had in common. Also she came to me with her problems so I got to be the hero to her. I learned that contact of any kind is not good and as long as it is there, the feelings can always be conveyed.<P>The bottom line here for me was when we talked she made me feel good. I do believe that once he cuts off the long distance contact, his interest for her will be short lived. But he must end ot completely. I ended contact with the OW for almost nine months until one day she called to ask me for help finding out who was sending her some harassing e-mail. In trying to help find out I was led back into all of the feelings with her. I have ended contact again, but that one brief moment when the phone rang and I responded to help, reset everything back to zero for me. I hope I helped answer your question. <P>Good luck...fs<BR><p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited August 22, 2000).]

Firestorm,<P>All my D knows is that H left us and is living in a new home with a new family. He basically ignored her for the first 2 weeks and she devised her own ways to avoid him. Now this week he is here for her again. They live in an apartment, no extras, and with working 2 jobs he is not going to have a lot of time for her anyway. He calls from the pizza shop to say good nite to her. She does not wan to go to the apartment and she does not want to go anywhere or do anything with them.<P>I have not spoken negatively about H or OW. She knows what he is doing is wrong. I have told her that I love her father, but there is nothing I can do right now but take care of her and me and just wait this out.<P>Did your W do anything to get you back?? Did she "Let you go" and act like you were gone from her life??? Did she drop you notes and letters every once in a while???? <BR>I have asked this in Emotional Needs - How do we betrayed spouses "Let Go" and depostit love units????

If you haven't yet, you might want to read the book "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman. I think I found a bit a peace about my H's affair.<P>I think it fit best into "Accidental", which was not addressed in SAA or any other affair book.<P>To this day I am willing to find any unmet need and work my tail off. I have made positive changes, but more like tweeks. I was ready to take 50% of the responsibility for the vunerability in our marriage (not the affair), but now looking back 18 months, I am convinced that the affair had little if nothing to do with me.<P>I worried and probed and worried some more about unmet needs, because H couldn't come up with any and although I could see things I could have done better, I couldn't link it to the affair. For a long time I thought I was blind or something or that H was trying to hide a deep seeded unhappiness from me.<P>I don't think that anymore.<P>My own H took up with a stranger in a bar (brazen hussy type), six weeks after his 40th birthday and a few months after a disappointment at work. It was a period of time he "went out" and drank which was uncharacteristic. I think he found her hot pursuit flattering and then I think he felt sorry for her, but knew he had to get out.<P>I don't think it was unmet needs as much as a really bad brain period.<P>Anyway, try Private Lies, it may help. <P>

I Believe,<P>Since I never left home or my W never told me to get out we are in a little different situation than you. I have known of other people that have had affairs that have left home and returned later and worked things out. I have never met anyone that I wanted to leave my W for. One thing that helped me was that fact that my W wanted me to stay and told me she still loved me.<P>My D did have a lot to do with us staying together. Since my S is older and getting ready to move out on his own, that situation was a little different. I did make contact with the OW about a month ago and peppermint knows I did. But we are still here fighting to build our marriage back. I do think your H is living in a fantasy world right now. I do not know how old he is but I can bet that he is close approaching 40 if not over. What he is in right now is not real, but his family is. They will soon have to deal with real issues and the world will become more real to them. I think when this happens he will see that he is in the wrong place.<P>Now the question for you is this, when that happens, do you want him to come back? The answer to that is probably yes since you are here. When the real world hits and he sees what he has done, he will suffer. It will be a long fall and a very hard road to walk down. I know sometimes you want to scream at him and ask "WHY"? But know that he will be in pain and it will be a pain delivered by his own hands. You will not have faith in him nor trust him. For good reason. When he decides to break away it will be him that decides. It will not last forever, so be the person that he sees comfort in and he knows he will feel safe with. When the walls fall, home is where he will come if that is where he feels loved, wanted, and safe.<P>My prayers are with you...fs

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithHopeLove:<BR><B>To this day I am willing to find any unmet need and work my tail off. I have made positive changes, but more like tweeks. I was ready to take 50% of the responsibility for the vunerability in our marriage (not the affair), but now looking back 18 months, I am convinced that the affair had little if nothing to do with me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have come full circle with this. When I found out about the affairs, it was, "You're weak. You're a liar! You have no morals!" etc. <P>My anger calmed down and got a little more rational and in a state of mind where I wanted to see where to go from there and my mantra became, "Where did I go wrong? How can I fix this so it doesn't happen again? I should have never ..."<P>I gotta tell ya though. Now I am back to, "this is not my fault." Yes, we all have our own personal whatevers that get on each others nerves. Yes, we can all use some help in communication issues or asking for what we want or getting our self esteem needs met from ourselves rather than outside ourselves. We could all use more patience and understanding. We are all human and have faults. But, we don't all deal with these issues by running out and having affairs or by lying and destroying our families. Nothing I have ever done deserves to be repaid by betrayal. <P>I will take responsibility for being short tempered when the H was habitually late for dinner dates with me. He can take responsibility for the cheating and lying.<P>Is it a good idea to try to meet each other's needs? Of course. We all want to be good, satisfying partners, but it is NOT OUR FAULTS! Affairs have nothing to do with us, but with them. (sorry repentant betrayers. that is just how I see it).