Hi All,<P>I have a question for you. H swears to me that OW is just a good friend. I don't believe it. I think he himself is in denial of just how involved he is. He has admitted to calling and talking to her everyday. Last week he lied to me about seeing her 3 times. I caught him in his lies and he confessed saying he didn't want to hurt me, but nothing is going on with them. Yesterday I took the kids shopping, when I got home he had left me a note saying he was going out for awhile. Well awhile was until 3:30 am. He said he just took OW to a movie and then out to eat, just as friends. I told him that as long as he still lived in this house I was not going to tolerate him dating another woman. He keeps saying he isn't dating her that she is a good friend he can talk to. Now he is going to the cities with a guy friend this weekend. Like I believe that. I guess I really don't care anymore I just want him to leave permanently. I told him that I would not share him with another woman and that I'm tired of being made a fool of. I'm I wrong for feeling this way? I just don't believe that he and her can just be friends. <P>Jill

Hi jill,<BR>I don't believe your H either.. I'm sure he's in a fog so he can't see how his lies are rediculous to believe..<BR>He's not dating, just talking to OW.. Well, till 3:30 in the morning!! Come on! And they went to see a movie(if it's true), that's "dating"!<P>Your post reminded me of my H in the past and just made me mad.. I don't know why your H is doing this.. Why can't he be honest with you? Lies hurt you more than truth..<P>Jill, I'm so sorry about what's going on.<BR>I really hope your H become honest with you.. everything starts from there.<P>Hang in there..<P>Meg

Hi Meg,<P>Since this is OW # 2 in the last year I'm pretty good at this game. I just wanted reassurance from u all that I wasn't over reacting. My H never lied before I mean ever so he is a realy bad liar. I plan on packing his stuff up and getting him a room at the hotel here in town this weekend while he is gone. ENOUGH is ENOUGH. We had agreed to seperate last week already but he is so busy he hasn't found a place to live yet. Well I'll just have to find one for him I guess. <P>Hope you have a good one,<P>Jill

If it's an EA, it's wrong. Whatever he is talking to her about, he should be sharing with you. What he keeps from you creates distance between you two and closeness between him and the OW. If this person is just a friend, she should be a mutual friend that both of you share and trust or she shouldn't be there. That which does not strengthen your marriage takes away from it.<P>If he is like most people I've seen, he's in denial. He is either denying to himself or you how attached he is to her. Either way, it's not good.<P>My H kept relationships with women a secret from me saying I couldn't handle it. He didn't want to upset me, and things like that. He knows I am not an insecure woman. What I can't handle is lies and cheating. THAT is what he was hiding.<P>I have a friend who's husband openly carried on with a woman "friend". Took her bowling, to the movies, even wanted to invite her to family gathererings. This "friend" turned out to be a lover of many years.<P>I don't trust this "friendship" bull crap. No real friend would keep your husband out that late. A friend would be sensitive to your feelings and make sure that you were comfortable with her, you sometimes shared their activities, you spoke to her on the phone when she called, and would back off it it seemed the relationship created a strain on his marriage.

You are not crazy for feeling the way you do. I am in the same "boat" so to speak. My H says they are just friends too. Such good friends that she gave him a cellphone so he could always be in touch and goes to the local bars with him so much that one night when I was there with him one woman asked where the OW was and why she wasn't with him. Do you know how much of a fool I felt like then. I can feel for you being in this situation. They are not "friends". If she was truly a friend she would not see him if it made you upset and she would tell him to get his marriage straigtened out before seeing him anymore.<P>I wish there was a way that they could actually "hear" what they are saying. Could one actually believe the lies. Maybe if they tells us enough times that they are just "friends" that they are not guilty at that point. WRong..........<P>My H even has his "friends" story rehearsed with the OW so she is telling me they are just good friends too. And if I have marital problems I should be talking to my H not her. What a joke. She knows exactly what is going on. I like to call it "selective amnesia".<P>So sorry to ramble it just hits a nerve very close to home.

Jill,<P>Don't even get me started on that just friends crap! I do sort of wonder if they are in denial to even themselves or if it is an outright lie tho. I haven't seen many betrayers in purely emotional affairs come here and tell their stories. It seems they are able to keep up the denial forever, and remain sort of selfrightous about it. That way it can always be my fault for not being able to handle him having friends.<BR>Lora

Popeye- Hi thanks for your post. This so called friend is a stranger to me I have never met her. H met her when he was doing construction work at her house and the friendship developed from there. I agree totally with everything you have said. I feel like their is no longer anything to fight for here. My trust is gone, I will never believe in him again. Like your H and yourself my H also told me he didn't want to hurt me. He just didn't want to admit to himself that what he is doing is wrong. Well I know I will survive and probably be stronger for it. Him I'm not to sure about.<BR>He has always depended on me to be there for him and it will be interesting to see what happens to him when I'm not.<P>Jill

That is what he does! He tries to make me feel guilty because I have a problem with him having a friend that is a woman. He has even tried to compare his friendship with OW to my friendship with my close friend. My friend and I are both women. We speak alot but we never do anything that upsets our H.<P>If I had ever even thought of having a male friend and going to a movie ect he would have had a fit. He used to be jealouse of the icecream delivery man. I guess as long as I know I am right about their relationship that is all that is important. I am moving forward.<P>Jill

Jill,<P>You are right about their relationship, it is not appropriate for a married man to have an exclusive friendship with a woman. As Popeye said, if she was JUST a friend then she'd be your friend too. She could call the house and chat w/you and come over to meet you and spend time with both of you. They both know it's wrong and your H is trying to transfer his guilt on to you by stating you're jealous and paranoid for no reason. My H tried the same thing. <P>IF your H says he can talk to her, then why go to the movies? How much conversation goes on n a movie? That was a DATE, plain and simple.<P>I have this fantasy for ya ... you call up OW and invite her over for dinner, tell her your H wants you to meet her and be friends too. You tell her that all his women friends are your freinds too!!! HA!!!! That should get her goat.<P>Just a fantasy, but wouldn't it be sweet.<P>Jo<P>Just had a second thought. OW probably is a sleazball and would accept and expect some kind of liazon of more than two people, YUCK! That is a sickening thought. Sorry.

CorW,<P> You're not crazy. Your H is.<P> Didn't he learn anything from his last "friendship"??<P> My H is also in contact with Cafe Woman again, although I haven't said a word to him about it. <P> On the positive side, he did come home last night from going to the bar to tell me that Cafe Woman wanted me to figure up the rent on a building for a sports bar she wants to put on our commercial property. (Gee, I wonder what happened to his promise not to be anywhere she was unless I was with him!) PUHLEEZE!!! I do NOT want to have to deal with that woman in ANY kind of business. I've even gotten tired of going to get on her nerves at her restaurant! But, of course, she is JUST a friend....my friend, too (according to H), even though she's barely had anything to say to me for over the past 2 years. If she wants to put a %$#@ing bar on OUR property, why not ask ME about it? She's certainly had plenty of opportunity! GRRR!

Hi ,<BR>Sory to say this,but until i actually caught my H with OW at 1.30 am in a field,with her tights in his car,he still tired to tell me they were just talking !!!I mean how many people frive along in the middle of the night,stop by a field,get out in the dark for a chat and think,"oh I'll just take my tights off "!!!!!<BR>He said he didn't want to upset me,but basically it comes down to them being too cowardly to tell you the truth.Hubby maintains he'd not a coward.yet it took him 15 mins to appear from the field,he didn't say a word-he only came out as i started chucking rocks into the field in the hope of hitting him/her.<BR>Sounds to me like your H is having an affair,and lets face it,if OW knows he's married if she was just a friend she wouldn't/shouldn't feel comfortable being alone with him on a date !

MY H told me the same thing. She was just "a nice old lady that he enjoyed talking to." <P>I even saw her. Yep, he was partially right. She was an old lady but not nice, at least not to me. But it did ease my fears about an affair. Nope,,not him. He was far too vain to stoop that low, far too concerned with appearances and getting old. He'd never be interested in anything like that.<P>Oppsss,,wrong again. <P>Don't dismiss your suspicions. You are not crazy.

Do they all use that "Just Friends" line? That is so amusing.<P>That's what he said they were. When confronted, that's what she said they were. I really don't understand how "just friends" can have passionate sex.<P>I think that is another "compartmentalizing behavior," a way to separate the OW from the Wife. To call her a "friend." <P>Mistress sounds too. . .immoral. (We can't face that fact, now can we?) Other Woman sounds so. . .plural (we musn't let ourselves think about the fact that we are sleeping with TWO women now.) Girlfriend? That's a highschool word--and besides, how can you have a girlfriend when you have a wife?<P>The line "just friends" is a dead giveaway if I have ever heard one.<P>There should be no reason why a guy is spending recreational time with another chick outside of his marriage. You spouse should be your best friend--at least your best friend of the opposite sex

Growl. I've come to believe tha twhen a man says "She's just a friend" It translates into "Yes, we're definitely having an affair" I heard the same thing when I busted H talking to hi former secretary on the phone. She's just a friend, she's having a lot of personal problems. Yeah, one of which is that she's chasing around a married man! Not to mention of course ALL the things they could possible have in common towards a "friendship", let's see, a 35 year old executive with multiple degrees and a 22 year old unwed mom, office temp who barely graduated high school. They had so much in common! I really had to laugh when I found some progressive CDs in H's car (while we were separated and of course they did NOT belong to a girl). My H only listens to classic rock, can't stand new stuff. I imagind him sitting there trying to act all cool like he had any idea who the hell these bands were. Ick.

Well, my H calls his OW his girlfriend. We are separated now but even when we weren't the OW was calling herself my H' girlfriend.<P>I told my H I knew he was calling OW his girlfriend and he denied it (Pants on Fire). He said "I see her once in a while". Boy that sure is different from when we were living together. AT that time he said he THOUGHT he might love her. Now it's "I see her once in a while". <P>Jo

Dear Crazy or What?<BR>Having been exactly where you are, I can relate to your thoughts, your feelings, your fears and everything else that comes along.<P>What you must relize is that there are 2 types of affairs. Emotional Affairs and Physical Affairs.<P>Do I think that your H is guilty of an Emotional Affair? <B>DEFINATELY!</B> Do I think that he is guilty of a Physical Affair? I don't know. But I do believe that an Emotional Affair can turn into a Physical Affair fairly easily, especially if home is an uncomfortable environment with discussions and questions.<P>Me? Well, I immediately threw my H out. Mainly because of the feelings of betrayal, hurt, disbelief and a heart breaking. <P>The best advice I can give you is that you must decide if you still love him and want you family, despite the pain you feel right now? My point is, don't react to quickly to your emotions. <P>If you choose that utimintly it is your family that you really want? Then you need to fight for it. But you should also learn alot about the stages of an affair for all concerned. You can really learn alot from the ones here on this forum. It is amazing how many of us have virtually been through the same sort of things in this ride.<P>It is true that affairs do die out. The trick for us is to keep it together until it does. <P>I also believe that it is best not to separate if you can help it. It is hard but that time that you are together is very important. The less of it you have I think the harder it is and the longer it takes to get things worked out.<P>We are all here for you. This forum has been of great support to me and it can be for you too. This forum was a God-send to me and you will be surprized how much HE moves through these posts.<P>My prayers are with you.<BR>Genie<BR>

Genie, Thanks for your support. I have spent the last year trying to keep my family together. H found OW # 1 on the internet last summer and well he was moved out by July and back in by Oct. It was a long frusterating year with me giving and him taking. Just when I thought we were really doing well he meets this woman and BAM we are right back if not worse where we started from. I have spent the last month struggling with this friendship of him with OW # 2. He left for 4 days and then came crawling back saying he was sorry blah, blah, a week later he was right back at it again. He is under the assumption that its his decision if he wants to move out or not. Well not anymore. I have his clothes packed and he is outta here as soon as he comes back from his<BR> "weekend away with friends". There is only so much one person can take and I feel that I have gone above and way beyond the call of duty.<P>You are very right affairs do die out but when is enough enough. How can I trust that he won't find somebody else after this one is over. Apparently we are lacking something here and I can't live my life feeling like I'm walking on a tight rope anymore.<P>Jill<p>[This message has been edited by crazy or what? (edited August 20, 2000).]

Well, now let's not be too hasty. It sounds like you haven't yet addressed the original problem if he went right back to cheating. Just because he comes home and says he's sorry doesn't mean the issue has been resolved.<P>Let's say (for the sake of having an example), that he strayed because he felt like you did not pay enough attention to him. Now, these OW gush all over him and act like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He loves that attention. He craves that attention. It makes him feel appreciated. Now, he really loves you and the family he's created with you. He wants to have that closeness and sense of appreciation with you, so he goes back home. But once he is there, he feels like a nothing again. So, he's out there looking for that excitement again. True, he doesn't want to lose you and doesn't want to hurt you, but he doesn't know how to be happy with you because he either doesn't know what his issue is or can't articulate it.<P>Is that a good enough reason to split? Isn't that something that can be fairly easily fixed if only you both knew what the problem was? <P>I am not saying it is always as simple as that. Sometimes the guy doesn't want to change. Sometimes the issues are not that clear cut. But, what if it is? Isn't it worthy fixing rather than starting all over with the same baggage? Either way, you are going to have to work through this. My opinion is that if you can work through it with your H and save your marriage, it is better for both of you as long as love still exists.<P>I am not saying you are making the wrong choice. I am just asking you to calm down and take another look before walking out. Yes, what he is doing is hurtful and humiliating. Yes, you do deserve better, but marriage is a sacred and wonderful thing. It deserves a chance- even if your H isn't giving that to you.

I feel that the reason my H went back to cheating is that he has always been dissatisfied about everything in his life. He only keeps a car for 1 year, we have moved many times ect. It seems like he has always been searching for something that I don't think exists. I feel that the first time he cheated was out of lonliness and not feeling needed anymore. I was working evenings and the kids are older so he was home alone alot.<P>This time I think he is trying to run away from the past. I think he feels so guilty for everything that has happened in the last year and perhaps the last 18 yrs. I have always spoiled him rotten. He admits that, he has said that he will probably never find anyone that will ever treat him this good again. He says he doesn't deserve the way I do treat him. I think most of his insecurity comes from his father. His father has always treated him different from his sister. Nothing Jeff did was ever good enough for him. So Jeff has spent a life time of trying to keep up with his father financially ect. He has tried so hard for his approval but has never gotten it. I really do feel that his relationship with his father is the root of most of our troubles. That is something I have no control over. I have tried to do all I could for the last 18 yrs to make him feel loved, and needed and successful but it never sunk in. So until he can figure out how to deal with all of these feelings about his Dad there is nothing I say or do that is going to matter. I really think he is doing his best to get me to hate him. I think he hates himself so much that he can't deal with just how much I love him. But until he can get his head together and figure out where he is going I can't live with anymore of this craziness. Am I permaqnently going to give up on him? Probably not. Do I need space away from him? Yes. I need to find myself again. I got lost somewhere in the past year and I need to get some of myself back. <P>Jill

Jill, seems i heard the same story for 2 yrs.My H and what i thought was a friend of mine had been sneaking around and going out all the time...and i mean ALL the time. He was having a problem with the death of his father and thought she would understand his problem...he never attempted to talk to me. And i am still dealing with them. He swears they were just "friends" and no sex was involved. I am at the end of my ropes dealing with this. Our marriage is nothing right now. He always has something else to deal with besides us. In my heart i know its just a matter of time before we are thru. I am so sorry to hear this is happening to you. I can tell you to look for all kinds of deceit and lies in the future. All my H ever did was change the place and time and how he met ow. But yet now i'm to believe him...i don't.