My life is a mess. W is still ill with the flu and hasn't looked at any more apartments. Her appraiser hasn't yet sent his appraisal to my loan officer. I have had a call into my attorney for over a week and she hasn't yet called me back. She is evidently holding up the separation agreement because of some questions she wants to ask me. Christmas is coming and we probably won't get each other gifts or celebrate it in any way. My birthday is a week after Christmas and there definitely won't be any recognition other than 2-3 phone calls from Dad and a couple of brothers(and I'm not asking for any from here, I mean mainly from W). Our wedding anniversary is January 7 and we should be in the last separation by then.<P>On top of all this, W noticed my coughing and made a comment about my not being over the flu either and started rubbing my back. I reciprocated and it was obvious that she appreciated it. She moved to the other side of me to look something up in the dictionary we keep on the dining room table to cheat on crosswords. I started rubbing her back again and she leaned into it so when I pulled my hand away, she nearly lost her balance.<P>Why can't she just cut off completely since it is she who wants to move and it is she who wants the freedom to boink OM? This is killing me. If we can't be working on rebuilding, why can't she just leave and leave me alone? My strength to resist only lasts so long and then I start feeling those warm and caring thoughts. And once I start feeling good, either I realize what the immediate future really does hold, or I remember the emotional betrayals that continue to this day. She is only looking for temporary comfort since OM is not around.<P>Right now, I wish I could just die and leave this miserable world. It's not that things are so bad for me, except for W and marriage, my life is roses. I have a great job, co-workers who like me a lot and would do anything for me. My life outside of work is killing me. I want to be free to find someone who will appreciate me and let me share my life. I want to be able to lavish attention, caring and love on someone. I want someone around who will introduce me to new interests and ideas and enjoy exploring this great mystery called "life".<P>These are all things W gave me before the affair. I'm not going to be able to restore these things with her, so why doesn't she hurry up and leave. I know part of her wants to stay, but it's a small part and it seems to be driven mostly by guilt.<P>Why can't I have love? I want to feel unconditional love again without the fear of betrayal. I want to trust someone again with my heart, soul and my life. W wants out. I cannot give her what she wants, because I truly believe she doesn't know exactly what she wants. All I know is that she feels that she needs the freedom to look.<P>Life <B>will</B> get better, I know. I'm just being impatient after over 8 months of this and I want the chance to start making it better <B>now.</B><P>Just a self-pity rant, I know. Just let it pass.

Yes, I hear ya, yes, I understand, and yes, I know how scary it feels to wish to just die and end the misery. <P>I'm very sorry for the pain you're feeling. So many of us are there right now with you.<P>What's amazing is that it's for all sorts of reasons: betrayed, betrayer, OW, OM, married, seperated, divorced or just thinking about which to become. The pain is <B>real</B> and it seems at times to never end.<P>I'd like to tell you to buck up and look for that light at the end of the tunnel... and I guess in a way I still can, but the light may not be what we expect, you know??<P>Hugs, in the most platonic way... but heartfelt!<P>~Sheryl<P>------------------<BR>A liberated woman is one who feels confident in herself,and is happy in what she is doing. She is a person who has a sense of self... -Betty Ford, b.1939

Hey There Buddie!!!!<P>OK - it's official.....I declare this International RANT WEEK on MB!!! (Is that OK - K?)<P>I had mine last nite - now you go and have yours!!! Only thing is that once you are done.....you have to give yourself a good talking to!!!! I did it all night to myself and have it all (or most anyway) in perspective and am feeling much better.<P>YOU have to do that part too!!! PROMISE.......<P>I know it's hard.....having what you want dangling in front of you but not being able to grasp it!!! That's why you feel it would be easier if she wasn't there....I hope for you it will be!! It wasn't for me - but that's me!!<P>Give the appraiser and the apartment hunting a little more time....<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>PS - Almost forgot to say : Stop sucking my brain of the thoughts on how you want your life to be!!!! Wouldn't it be heaven!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited December 08, 1999).]

Dear Heartpain,<P>I am so sorry for your pain. I wish I had advise for you. <P>If you have resigned yourself to what the situation looks like it is going to be, then that is what it will be.<P>You sound like a very loving man. Don't ever forget it isn't over until the fat lady sings. I think that is a quote from someone some where.<P>If you continue being loving to your wife because that is how you feel then you have done your best. This OM and the affair will probably not succeed once it hits the light of day. Statistics are sure not in its favor.<P>You have two choices from what I can see. One you can turn off and shut down towards her. If you choose to do that one you may regret it knowing that you didn't give it your all. You may always wonder what if?<P>Two you can build all the love bank deposits you can now. If it doesn't change things now it may when she is out on her own or with OM. After all can anything born of deceit ever really work or be wonderful? At any rate you will always be able to look at yourself in the mirror know you did the absolute best you could do.<P>My first marriage was horrible. I tried my best. It couldn't work. I hurt a lot even though I was the one who eventually got the divorce. I settled for much less in the property settlement. Still after all of that I can look in the mirror with pride. I did my best.<P>This probably didn't help. After all that said I can only say that I will pray for you and your wife. Just remember the other old saying...never say never.<BR><P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Sheryl -- I know that many are here with me now. This board has been one depressing place lately. I would avoid it if there weren't so many people I care about here. I don't know why, but I seem to be lagging you by a week or two. You have been at this place recently and I wasn't ready for you to give up, so why am I ready for me?<P>To be honest, right now, death doesn't seem all that scary. I know I don't really want it and would never bring it on myself, but the peace and tranquility it brings are the attractions.<P>The pain I'm feeling isn't reserved for the betrayed. It's for anyone who feels frustrated by their partner in trying to do what is best. I know that. It's educational, but doesn't lessen the hurt.<P>In my case, I think the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an on-coming train!!!<P>Platonic hugs, huh?? Guess I started that with you and Lori, but we do love each other here and it's important to know that it is love between two humans. Anyway, the platonic hugs are the best kind because they are between souls(and no, I don't believe in "soulmates") rather than lovers.<P>Sheba -- I'm glad to see my warrior princess back and in her normal form! I <B>will</B> give myself that talking to, but I'm going to wait a couple of weeks or so when I am alone. That's when it will do the most good. I PROMISE you I will do that when the time comes.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>having what you want dangling in front of you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've always fallen for the "carrot on a stick" motivation. Must have been a donkey in a previous life. Or maybe the present one since W thinks I'm a jacka$$.<P>"Brain sucking", huh? Well, I wondered where I got those ideas from. OK, now that I've been discovered, I'm putting my straw away. Yes, it would be heaven at least from the vantage point of the hell some of us are in right now(including you).<P>Samantha -- I know what you are saying. As Yogi Berra said "It isn't over 'till it's over". Or as someone said in a post recently, "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no". But, there are resignations which are self-fulfilling prophecies and there are resignations that are simply acceptance of facts. I feel that mine is the latter.<P>I've given it my all for the last 8 months. Right now, I don't feel I have anymore to give. I found her therapist for her in the early going. I am being punished for that now in that she's a very poor therapist and has sabotaged what chance we had at recovery. To say she got her training by reading "Dear Abby" would be doing a disservice to Abby.<P>I was married before and gave up <B>everything</B>(80%) in the settlement. But there were children involved. In this one(no children) I'm giving her a 60/40 split just so I don't have to fight her for anything. <P>I do sometimes say "never", but I actually mean "probably not". Pessimism has it's advantages. If you expect the worst, any surprise is a pleasant one.<P>God always blesses us, just sometimes in ways we don't expect or recognize.

Hey there HP,<P>It's frustrating to see you hurting. And, I know in some ways how difficult it's going to be for you with all these significant dates coming up. So many reminders of what once was and what could be.<P>This may be simplistic advice...one of those "yeah, buddy. Easy for YOU to say" bits... <BR>but try to keep perspective. Gotta keep telling yourself that you're doing all you can. That you're doing more than most people would be doing. That you're still showing lots of consideration and patience. And, that you can't do it alone. If she's gone looney, you can't fix that. So...fix you. And, focus on the good stuff you DO have. Yeah, easy for me to say, I know.<P>On another frustration you've expressed... her whipsaw, one foot in and one foot out behaviour... it's pretty dang classic. Think of some of the other people you've met here or have read about. You were right when you posted that she wants her magic cake. The more she eats the more she wants.<P>Strange as it may seem, I'd venture that these are positive signs. Yep, it's tough to take. Geez, I had so much trouble with this during Suse's whipsaw times. And, I didn't know half of what you know of your W's activities. I only suspected.<P>The good news is, she DOES have positive feelings for you. Isn't that what Plan A's all about? All the more dramatic a contrast when you finally can't stand it any longer and have to go to Plan B. It may shock her back to reality.<P>On that note, I'd like to ask a question. Suse and I mulled over your thought to refinance the house. Ummmmm, why? Did I miss something? Isn't this making it easy for her? Besides, is it fair for you to take on increased financial risk so she can live out her happy fantasy? Unless I did overlook something, this might be just the time to give the Little Missy a whack with reality.<P>Anyhoo, I'll be curious to hear what you think. And, hang in there. Some one else posted a good point of perspective...in the cosmic plan, a few months isn't much time. If you can stand it longer, I swear you'll feel at least a little better later regardless of what's to come. If things work, well, voila! If success isn't in the cards, well you did your damndest.<P>Be well.<P>

Hey! We posted at the same time, almost.<P>Listen, listen, listen! You've got so much to offer! Here...you've said this in a different way: you've got a LOT invested in this relationship. It's the freakin' right thing to do to try to salvage it. Ethically, emotionally, financially. Yeah, and selfishly. Honestly, I really do admire you for trying every fool creative thing you can think of. I KNOW it's tiring. But goldangit, it's worth it. If not for the marriage, at least for your sanity.<P>Also, another one of my simple stupid questions... have you TOLD her how you feel? Have you TOLD her what you are attempting to do to save your relationship? Anyhoo, just a weird thought...to ask the obvious.<P>What the HAYALL is it she wants? What does she say is wrong with YOUR relationship? Makes no sense to me. Then again, most infidelity doesn't. Oops, I was an infidel. Suse, was I this looney? LOL<P>Sheesh.

Heartpain, there isn't anything else to add to what the rest of our friends already said, except another hug from me.<P>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Heartpain,<P>Just wanted to let you know I am sharing your pain. You sound so down and I feel so badly for you.<P>Dunc gave you something else to think about there - giving some reality to your W about the refinancing. Give it a turn in your head.<P>All these holidays and special days coming up for you. Well, I for one will be here on Christmas. I have having dinner for the family without H. I suppose he will be with OW in FL like he did for Thanksgiving. <P>Somehow, your W seems to still have a big attachment to you. Maybe PlanB would let her get enough taste of reality to realize how much you contribute to meeting her emotioal needs.<P>Your comment about pessimism was interesting. I am reading a book that talks about lowering expectations. Basically, during times like this, have NO expectations and you won't be disappointed, but still have the potential to be pleasantly surprised if the S comes through with something unexpected. <P>On the top of my gift list from Santa is a FAITHFUL HUSBAND!!!!<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

dMac -- Thanks for stopping by to my "pity party". My "consideration and patience" have pretty much ended over this last week and been replaced by "tolerance". I am fixing "me". I have made a lot of progress over the last few months, noticed by everyone(including W, even though nothing would be enough for her). I am happy about that.<P>The "whipsaw" is indeed the hardest thing for me. It's just because of the analytical, cartesian way I tend to think. You know, look at the situation and build a plan to fix it. Pretty simplistic attitude for something as complex as life and I am working on that, but right now, it's all I have.<P>This <B>could</B> be a positive sign, but how long to wait is a very individual decision to make. What to one person may seem "hasty" may seem interminable to another. It's really hard as an individual to decide where to draw the line. It would be rare to make exactly the right decision. Too many of us either pull the plug too soon and live to regret it, or hang around much too long and become "doormats".<P>Sometimes I wonder if I know/knew <B>too</B> much. I guess I can make that determination when I know the final outcome of this.<P>The decision to re-finance the house came from 1) the pending divorce; 2) my desire to keep the house; and 3) my showing of support for what she said initially she wanted(to get away from things to clear her mind). The only scenario where I wouldn't be taking on this financial risk is if she decided to stay. Maybe I'm being stupid, but she actually sees this as a positive gesture on my part. It's only when her "evil twin" steps in to say she wants her emotional freedom that this really looks like a bad idea. I want to think about this a little more and try to give you a better response, re: re-financing. Maybe tomorrow....<P>On your second response...I HAVE told her how I feel and what I am doing and would be willing to do to save the marriage. The problem is that she doesn't know what the HAYALL(I love a Texan accent) she really wants. Until she figures that out, NOTHING happens unless I can make it happen. Unfortunately, she doesn't allow me many POSITIVE things, just steers toward the negative.<P>Let me think about all this dMac and I will post something to you early in the morning.<P>Again thanks for your(and Suse's) interest.....

{{{{{{{{{{{{Heartpain}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Off to d's dance class and missed this when you got here. <P>I know her behavior is driving you nuts. And it is so hard to take the junk. Just hang in there. What's meant to happen, will. You've done a heckuva job, given a lot, and she's a fool. But we already knew that didn't we???<P>Just try to take this time minute by minute. I'm not so good at advice this week, having my own pity party. Must be something in the air!!<P>You HAVE gotten to her. Not all of her pleasant behavior is motivated by guilt. A lot of it, when it manages to appear, is because somewhere, deep in that mixed up scrambled egg brain she's using right now, she KNOWS how much you mean to her. But she can't recognize it the way she should, not w/ him in the picture. And the few moments that she does, it scares her.<P>The special occasions coming up will be hard. H was miserable on my b-day and left the next day. We've passed his b-day and our anniversary. But you can get through them. Hey, you've got us!!!! <P>I'm sorry you're feeling sad. And I do know that it's just something that has to pass. Just wanted you to know I was here. <P>Take all the platonic hugs you can get!! You deserve them!<P>Lori

Heartpain...<P>I don't understand! I know that this is a extremely hard situation, I've been there but it sounds like to me that both of you have deposited some pretty good love units.<P>Look at it this way, she could have recoiled and not wanted you to touch her at all, right? <P>And as far as X-mas, you are with her!!!!!!!<BR>X-mas is for giving not receiving, buy your W a nice present!!!!!!<P>Look at the glass as 1/2 full not 1/2 empty.<P>Show your W that you love her, don't just ignore this holiday by getting caught up in this depression you are in. Shake it off, I know it is hard but come on FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!! Don't talk like you're ready to just roll over and give up.<P><BR>Depression is not attractive.<P>This is not a cut down but a lifter upper! <BR>Genie

H-P,<P>So sorry to hear about your pain.<P>I thinks its time for Plan B, just aske her to leave. You said it yourself the holidays are going to be crap. Why compound it by "pretending" things are normal.<P>Tell her to fish or cut bait. If she wants om that badly, tell her to go.<P>Thats all I can offer you man. I know what you are going thru. You can only take so many of their love busters too.<P>Hang in there for you.<P>God Bless<BR>Bob

OK, now I can catch up...<P>Kat1 -- Thanks for the hug, I was really down last night. Still am today, just not quite as much.<P>RMA -- Unfortunately, I believe she already knows what reality is. She has been and can be a very independent person, very good at taking care of herself. She has already pushed me away somewhat emotionally, so she does have some understanding of what it will be like without me and it hasn't brought her running back yet.<P>Lori -- Thanks. There is some wisdom in just waiting to see what happens, but there is equal wisdom in taking the ball and running with it. In other words, taking control of one's life and not waiting for someone else to respond. I know I can get through the holidays and special days. It all just made me feel down last night. I KNOW I have gotten to her. I'm like a nasty virus that has infected her rather permanently. But right now, she has too many pulls from too many other directions and some of the attractons are stronger than the one for me.<P>Thanks for the hugs and here are some right back at ya {{{{{{{{{Lori}}}}}}}}}<P>Genie -- The love deposits are pretty much one-sided. She tends to make withdrawals on a regular basis keeping her account balance near zero. Just enough to not incur a service charge.<P>She should be out of the house by X-mas. Likely by the 20th or so. The glass may be half-full, but there's a hole in the bottom and it's draining fast.<P>W <B>knows</B> how much I love her. She has never had any doubt about that. And, I know she still loves me. In her mind, she loves OM, too, but I don't even think she can consciously admit that to herself. Don't want to be part of a threesome.....<P>Bob -- Thanks. I did ask her to leave once I found out she called OM during the time when she was really ill and had me out of the house running errands for her. And basically, I did use the wording that if she wanted OM that badly, she was welcome to him. I told her I didn't need this in my life...

Heartpain,<BR>Hey Pal, Sorry your feeling so down. I know what your going through ( I'm not just saying that ) The tid bits of affection and attention we get from them is great. And then it disappears into the fantasy, OUCH.... It hurts.... Alot. <P>I have to admit I am somewhat worried over things that you say, Such as not being scared of death and that it seems peaceful. HP, Thats a easy way out. This is what life is all about. Working to make it better. Days come and go and the sun still continues to rise. The point my friend, Is there is more to this than just us ( the hurt ones ) We have so much to offer now, We are the educated few when it comes to relationships. <P>I am excited to start a new realtionship with my Wife if she so chooses, If she decides to leave and stay in her fantasy world then I know that I will be ok. Someday I will be happy again. Just because they ( Our W's ) aren't interested in us doesn't mean that we are nothing..... I firmly believe that I am becoming a good hearted man, Someone who is begining to understand relationships and has it within us to make them thrive. <P>Anyway, I am rambling. You have helped me so many times and I just wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts...... Hopefully they ( our W's ) will snap out of it at somepoint so that they can see who we have become. Intelligent, caring, understanding, compassionate men. Hey, chicks dig that stuff.........<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

Rutger -- I luv ya, man...That last statement made me laugh out loud....<P>Don't worry too much about the "dying" talk...It's just a feeling. I intend to live forever even if some days I don't feel like it.<P>Guess that's the only thing that comes out of this for the "deserted", we become better people and better relationship partners.<P>It was nice to hear from you, my man...You are right, we will get thru this....