My long story short... After my husband was emotionally absent from our marriage, I had a net affair. NOW, we are trying to work out everything. At first he said that he doesn't mind that one of my good friends is male, even though we had a one night stand 12 years ago. Then he admitted it bugged him and said he doesn't want me to have any contact with this friend for 2 months. I said OK, but I sent my friend a final e mail appologizing for not showing up at his work when I said I would, and that I'll see him when I see him.<BR>I admitted this to my H, after he questioned me about what I did when he was taking a nap.<BR>Now he tells me that he has been using a keystroke monitor on my computer and knows it anyway.<BR>This is not the first time he has spied. He recovered my e mails to the OM and read all of them. (Of course, that is how he found out about it. 2 months after it ended.) He also read all my e mails to this other friend and every other male friend I have ever wrote to.<BR>My question is when do I say "Enough is enough!" There has been no secrets between us since our recovery began and I don't really know how to set up boundaries. Right now I have none. That is, NO privacy whatsoever, and that just makes me SO uncomfortable to the point I think I can't live like this any longer.<P><BR>OK, it wasn't so short.. hehe

TechGirl<P>I too have had an "internet affair" and have had to deal with my H reading all my emails. To this day he still reads all my emails even the email I have set up to use for this forum. As far as when to say "enough is enough" I think this is all up to your H. Until he feels that he can trust you fully to not have another "internet affair" he will always check the email account no matter who it is to.<P>I know my H checks my email account but in return I can check the email account he has set up for this forum. I have his account name and password. The only account I don't have access to is his yahoo account and his email at work but I trust him completely. So once he trusts you enough then he might let up some. If it bothers you that he does this, talk to him, let him know that it bothers you and see if he would be willing to allow you to check his accounts.<P>Just my thoughts

Here's my take on this.<P>I believe that since you had an A, even tho it was long ago and another one more recent that was a Net Affair, that your H has the right to do an audit at will. <P>If you want your marriage to work, really work, then you have to allow your H to question and snoop until he feels comfortable that you are no longer betraying him.<P>Once a trust has been broken it's a long hard road back to the place where you and H can be close enough to trust again without question.<P>If there's nothing to hide, than why worry about him digging or spying. It's a moot point if things are in the up and up, right?<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 20, 2000).]

TechGirl -- Since my W, hopeful1771, replied here, I thought I would as well. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I had a net affair. . .one of my good friends is male, even though we had a one night stand 12 years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My first question is why would you expect your H to give you full trust? I don't ask this to be nasty, but honestly, you have shown to him on two different occasions, that you can't be trusted. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now he tells me that he has been using a keystroke monitor on my computer and knows it anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Personally, I think once you reach the point of trying to reconcile, that this is a bit extreme. I have never used a keystroke logger personally. Computers are my field of expertise, so for the most part I wouln't need something of that nature anyway.<P>More to the point, I demanded when I first found out about my W's internet affairs, that either I have TOTAL access to anything and everything she does on the computer or I would remove her access to the internet. That was almost two years ago. I used to check the computer and her Email accounts on a daily basis. As time has gone on, I don't check things as closely any more. In fact, I have checked her Email account only twice in the past six months. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>when do I say "Enough is enough!". . .I can't live like this any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First and foremost, you as the betrayer have absolutely no right in trying to establish boundries like this of any kind. That right belongs solely to your H. Until the time comes when he no longer feels the need to check up on you, you quite simply have only two choices. . .End the marriage, or accept this as something your H needs to do during his healing process.<P>All you can do in the mean time is try every single day to prove to him by your actions <B>NOT your words</B> that he has reason to trust you. It can be a long difficult road, and it takes work on both of your parts.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Empty Shell (edited August 20, 2000).]

First off, I think I miscommunicated about my friend. We had a one night stand 12 years ago... that was 5 years before my H and I even met. We are platonic friends now.<P>As for the snooping, I understand that he has the need to do this... but, I guess I'M the one feeling violated and lied to, at the moment. (No, not as much as he felt...) He didn't tell me he was doing it... in fact promised me that he wouldn't.<P>And no, there is nothing to hide on this end.<P>I guess what I'm hearing though is: it's all my fault... he has every right to keep tabs on me 24/7... and I need to put up or shut up and leave.. and if that's the case.. I don't know what to do next.

It's not like I need to know where and what 24/7. And her plutonic friend is one that she has been dreaming about for 8 months and she also sent him an email 8 months ago that told him she was attracted to him. Right now I just feel that all our energy should be concentrated on US. I mean when I wake up and she is on the comp at 4 am ICQ'ing other men, ya it bothers me. All I want right now is for her to show me that I am the important person in her life and that she can live without all these other guys. Oh and in case you didn't figure it out pegasus and Techgirl are married. Hopefully for a long time yet. <BR>

Techgirl<BR>its called OCD Obsessive complusive disorder, at least that what it felt like. I had to know, now I almost never read because the trust has been rebuilt, it takes time.<BR>I had this urge that I almost couldn't control, I had to know what was in the email. <BR>Even though there was nothing, total break off with the OM, but again, its a time thing and keeping the boundries. If they break and you do something you shouldn't , you have to start building all over. <BR>patience. <BR><P>------------------<BR>jnvc

Pegasus- And in that e mail I said that you two were exactly alike in the respect that you weren't there for me and that he wasn't there for his wife either.... AND WHY WOULD I WANT ANOTHER GUY LIKE THAT?? Or did you just glance over that part?? In the dreams he represents my single life, before you... nothing more... That's what the dreams are usually about anyway. I told you all of this and tried to reasure you. I've been doing everything you have told me to do, since we started the recovery.. I don't know what else to do.

Let me begin by welcoming both TechGirl and pegasus to the forum as a couple. There and have been many of us here, and for the most part those couples who are here have been very successful.<P>The fact that you are both here is a very big indicator that you both are looking for the same goal . . . Restoring your Marriage.<P>TechGirl -- You're right, for me anyway, I did misconstrue the information concerning the one night stand.<P>I am afraid that I haven't devoted an awful lot of time to the MB forums in the last 8 months or so. I don't know if I have read anything by you in the past so I must admit that my comments were based totally on what I read, or thought I read in this thread. By the same token, I can remember seeing your H's name on the forum before, but I can not say that I remember any of his side of he story either.<P>So, back to your thread . . . <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for the snooping, I understand that he has the need to do this... but, I guess I'M the one feeling violated and lied to, at the moment. (No, not as much as he felt...) He didn't tell me he was doing it... in fact promised me that he wouldn't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My first thought when I read statements of this nature is . . .tough. I realize that this sounds harsh, and for that I apologize. If I did my math correctly, you two have known each other for 7 years. I'm not sure how long yu have been married though. On the day you were married, you promised to forsake all others. . .then you turned to an other (others?) to have your needs met. I have had similar conversations with my W, so please don't think that I am picking on you.<P>My point I guess is that Infidelity is in no way fair. It is almost always very one sided. Initially on the side of the betrayer, and then later on the side of the betrayed. All of us, both betrayed and betrayer, go through this same set of issues once we reach the stage of begining recovery.<P>I guess the bottom line is, are you willing to do what is necessary to rebuild your marriage? For you, are you willing to endure those behaviors which your H feels are necessary for him to try and rebuild his trust in you? For him. . .Is he willing to make sometimes very difficult attmepts to give you the trust. One of the best analogies in this type of situation is . . . Can he stand back and give you enough rope to hang yourself with? It's very difficult, I know I've been there.<P>pegasus -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's not like I need to know where and what 24/7.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YES it is. That is exactly what you are saying by having the keystroke logger installed. If you are truly in the stages of recovery and rebuilding, then you need to remove the software. You can still check the computer to find out what your W is doing, without involving "Big Brother." I don't know how long ago discovery was for you, but unless it is very recent, then you need to start giving your W a chance. . .Even if that chance is a chance to hang herself as I described above. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Right now I just feel that all our energy should be concentrated on US.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're right. But that also includes some work and effort on your part. I know how tempting it is to want the betraying spouse to do 110% of the work toward rebuilding after discovery, but salvaging your marriage really does take both of you. And I'm sorry, but your "being there" is not enough effort on your part.<P>As I mentioned earlier, I have not followed your story, but have seen your name before. If I have misconstrued details in your case, as I did with your W, then I apologize, and will look forward to your correcting me where appropriate. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>wake up and she is on the comp at 4 am ICQ'ing other men, ya it bothers me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Been there, done that, got the Tshirt. If ICQ is a problem, then get rid of it. Have you tried to figure out what it is that your W is seeking from ICQ that you are not giving her? It can be hard to figure out sometimes, but it is something that you need to try to learn.<P>Look guys, I need to get off my soap box and go to work. I will check back after work tonight, and if you are interested, we can talk further.<P>God Bless<P>

I didn't always feel this way, but now I think that there should be very little private deeds between a married couple. What I mean by that is that I think that whatever a wife or husband does should be known or able to be known by the other. No personal checking accounts, credit cards, cell phone bills, secret memberships, e-mail accounts, or whatever. <P>I think the only private things we should have is our thoughts.<P>I am a tremendously private person, so for me to come to this took a lot! I used to be very much an individual who wanted her individual space and life. What I did when I am not with you is none of your business! <P>What changed that was my marriage. My H shared everything with me and expected me to do the same. He did not care if I went through his clothes pockets, brief cases, accounts, whatever. Everything was out in the open. This created an incredible sense of security that I never had before. I never checked up on him. Never.<P>The openness of knowing what my spouse was doing or being able to check behind him said, "You can trust me." It made me feel like I wanted to be trusted and live up to the trust he was giving me. <P>I think married people should share everything, but your thoughts are always your own.<P>Unfortunately, I should checked up on my STBX because I would have caught his cheating sooner, but my point is, I think that when there is secrecy, it breeds insecurity and the opportunity to cheat. If you can hide things without being caught, you are more likely to do it. There are no guarantees in anything, but I prefer to have honesty and no secrecy.<P>... at the same time, I don't think this gives the other person a license to go snooping around either. Trust breeds trust so that hopefully the other person won't feel the need to snoop and would find nothing if he/she did.<p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited August 21, 2000).]

I have always believed that people deserve some privacy...a place to explore your inner most thoughts, to be able to say anything you feel without repercussion.<P>My H has always felt otherwise. At first it showed up in my kids. He always found a way to know exactly what they were doing and saying. This bothered me, yet I found at times I was doing the same thing. Eavesdropping on telephone conversations, reading their journal entries...not to give them crap but to know what they were dealing with in life. I was not very objective, but my H always knew what they were really up to.<BR>I still was uncomfortable with the fact that he read their emails (even though we have told them many times that he is).<P>When I started acting squirrely during my A, he felt the need to get a program that forwarded anything written on our computer to a private account he set up. He discovered what I was doing. Even after he admitted it and we started working things out, I found out that he read my journal which he said he would not. I felt very betrayed that I did not have any privacy at all.<P>Since that time, I have done a lot of sould searching. I have realized that in life, people are always checking up on us. That is how we learn to avoid doing things that are wrong. I have come to understand that God is checking up on me every minute of every day. Even though I am still uncomfortable about it, I have accepted that my behaviour affects everyone I deal with and someone will always be checking...I am learning to live my life the way I believe I should rather than try to make it just appear that I am. I guess if we are overly defensive, maybe we do have something to hide...just a thought.<P>As for me, the rest of my life is going to be an open book...check away!

Ok, here' my two cents. My H had an affair in February. I have had several D-days. Too long of a story. But he had contact with this person a lot by e-mail. I continue to monitor the computer and last week my H was pushed over the edge. Said he couldn't take a Sh_t without me know. Fact is he's right. Another fact is He had the affair and in turn turned me into this miserable, snooping, peeping tom whom I can't stand. This is the last thing I want in our relationship. But unfortunately it's the only thing that will help me gain his trust. That I know he's doing the right thing when I'm not around. When he doesn't know I'm looking.<P>He wants his privacy back? That comes with getting my trust back. When he can prove that his words are credible and that I don't have reason to disbelieve him then he can have his privacy back. Until then if he's interested in being in this marriage he needs to be completely transparent to me. If he has nothing to hide, especially after his affair, then this invasion shouldn't be smothering to him. He should be welcoming it. Maybe I'm wrong. But I know if I ever F_CKED up as bad as my H that I'd be willing to do 100% of what my H requested to get back what we had and more. Hope this helps.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"

Hi Tech,<P>Welcome to this board. <P>Let me tell you my story or read the sunglasses. First and formost Tony used the Internet to find all his women. He cheated on me from day one. He then would meet them in real life. Does he want a relationship with me. You bet. Do I want a relationship with him...I do not know.<P>I know this. I have full access to his computer. If I want to do format:C than I can. Though I am sure that you feel you should have privacy if you want your marriage than you might realize that you need to prove your trust.<P>Tony has to prove it. Even if I think a hair is out of order he has to deal with it. That is what infidelity causes. If he wants to be in this relationship than he has to give up his rights to privacy. I do not bothered to check up on him all the time. But he lost that right to privacy when he started picking up women on-line.<P>There are concequences to our actions. No matter how small or large. You have a choice either remain private and loose the respect and love of your H or be an open book and repair the marriage. What do you want?

My husband really enjoys playing cards. That is where he met OW. He no longer goes there to play cards EVER AGAIN. The point is, if the computer is a problem, maybe you shouldn't "hang out" there any more. We are working on things we can do together. There are many other things in life. Just my $.02.

TechGirl,<P>A Gift of love in your marriage...<P>Offer to him all the opportunity he needs...<BR>...make him know it is OK for him to know your thoughts of/to others...<P>...think of it as a <B>gift of love in your marriage</B><BR>...to share with him your feelings... emotions... thoughts...<BR>...this is <B>gift</B> worth more than diamonds...<P>...let him know that his thoughts would mean the world to you too.<P>I don't plug it very often...<BR>...but have you ever considered a "Marriage Encounter Weekend"...<BR>Many religious denominations and non-denominational churches offer such weekends...<BR>...and the basic thrust is to develop a simple dialoguing effort for both spouses to improve that "opening" of heart and mind between <B>both</B> spouses.<BR>...it too takes a bit of <B>PTC</B>... but can be very beneficial.<P>Check out...<A HREF="http://www.marriages.org/find.htm" TARGET=_blank>National Marriage Encounter and Engaged Encounter Weekend Information</A>... and <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2691/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>National Marriage Encounter</A>.<P>If you do a search on the "In Recovery" forum you'll find some very satisfied couples.<P>Prayers to you... <P>Jim

EmptyShell. I found out two months ago. I have taken the logger off but the reason Iput it on in the first place was because I couldn't check her computer. I couldn't tell when she got online, what sites she was visiting, or which of her email accounts she was using. I hate feeling this way but right now I can't seem to feel any different. I know that it was my behavior toward her in the first place that enabled her to have the IA. And I have done a lot to change. According to her I am doing pretty good. But knowing what went on when I was not home or even when I was in bed asleep, when she's on the internet and reluctant to tell me what she's doing, at this point it just dredges up old feelings. I know she is trying to change and be more open and that it's hard for her. But I guess we haven't been able to find a good balance point yet. And sometimes she won't talk to me and she is kind of afraid to post much on this site because she feels that as the betraying spouse everyone here would just rip into her, even though I have told her this site is not about blame but rebuilding and moving on. I just wish I didnt't have this need to spy. How long does it last???<BR>Thanx. <P><p>[This message has been edited by pegasus (edited August 23, 2000).]

pegasus..<P>I understand about your need to spy. I've used a keylogger program as well to snoop in on W's e-mail sites and passwords. I have mixed emotions about reading my wife's email, but she is the one continuing the affair. <P>I had been reading her mail for about seven months. My reasoning was to see at least a glimmer of hope that her affair was going to end. Unfortunately, I didn't see any light (but a train) at the end of the tunnel. <P>It's been about a month now, but I found I had to stop as I wasn't learning anything about her or her affair that I didn't already know and what I did read only served to make me much more depressed. The pull to continue reading was very strong and it has taken much self control to not start up again.<P>I do think that if she makes a commitment to us and "ends" her affair that I may very well return to monitor the situation again to assure myself that I can trust her once more. I ultimately hope the reasons for my need to spy will go away.<P>ST<p>[This message has been edited by still_trying (edited August 22, 2000).]

still_trying..<P>I hope it works out for you and I understand. You feel you needto knowand at the same time you are afraid to know because you might right that somethings going on. Good Luck. <BR>

Hey all you super-snoops! Several of you have had great success with keystroke loggers. What products did you use?

pegasus -- Sorry it took me so long to respond. My D had her first soccer practice tonight. My parents showed up at the practice, quite unexpectedly to my W and I, and we ended up going out to eat and then to the store.<BR> sorry, proud papa talking <P>So anyway, back to your recent reply. . . <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Iput it on in the first place was because I couldn't check her computer. I couldn't tell when she got online, what sites she was visiting, or which of her email accounts she was using. I hate feeling this way but right now I can't seem to feel any different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can understand your frustration here. I had the advantage (disadvantage?) of being very technically knowledgeable, especially concerning computers. I was simply trying to do a little bit of house keeping on the computer when I found out. In our situation, one of the last Emails my W sent was asking one of her virtual OM when they were going to be back in our home town again. . . There is no telling how long things would have gone on or how far they would have gone, had I not found out when I did. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>knowing what went on when I was not home or even when I was in bed asleep, when she's on the internet and reluctant to tell me what she's doing, at this point it just dredges up old feelings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been there too. I can remember times when I would wake up and hear my W on the computer. I would get up and she would immediately shut the internet connection down. I probably should have known something was wrong, but I simply wasn't able/willing to see it. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>sometimes she won't talk to me and she is kind of afraid to post much on this site because she feels that as the betraying spouse everyone here would just rip into her, even though I have told her this site is not about blame but rebuilding and moving on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My W too is reluctant to talk to me about her affairs. She will talk once in a while about what she has read on this site, but even that is not very in depth. I have tried to encourage my W to post more often. There are so many threads that I have read which she is emminently qualified to respond to, but she simply won't do it. I have tried to tell her that by reading her honest feelings as they relate to others who are going through similar situations, I would be able to learn so much about her and us, that she simply refuses to tell me face to face. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How long does it last???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I truly wish that I had some type of concrete answer to give to both you and to TechGirl. We each have our own ways of dealing with and healing from infidelity. In my case a few months after discovering my W's internet affairs, I then found out about a physical affair. That made our situation a lot more painful than yours (I don't say that to belittle your pain, or the pain of your W in anyway.) We are about 20 months post disovery of the internet affairs right now. for the most part we are doing well. However if you have read any of our recent posts you know that we are still struggling with some very real problems as a result of her infidelities. I haven't really felt the need to "check up" on my Wife in a very long time. There are still occasions when I feel an overwhelming desire to go look, but they are few and far between now.<P>Good Luck and God Bless to both you and your W.<P>