H had an hour long heart to heart with his EXBF (OW's H) last night. Talked about how this whole thing transpired and where he is now.<P>BF asked him straight out what he was thinking. He said no matter what happens, no matter how much I change - he's never coming back.<P>Made comments about how we get along great. BF told him how we could have been together many times but that I wouldn't and he's never met anyone as devoted to one thing. H said that should make him feel good - that someone didn't want to be with anyone but him - but somehow it didn't.<P>I know I shouldn't trust this EXBF very much. But what reason has he to lie to me over something that can be verified? H must have known he'd tell me.<P>He also told me H had been doing drugs off and on during our marriage. I was absolutely stunned. That is one thing (so was cheating) that I was absolutely SURE he wouldn't do. Am I really that naive? Maybe I never really knew him at all? <P>If he led this double life our entire marriage, there are deeper issues than I've realized. There must be fundamental problems in himself that didn't even stem from me.<P>H called me before he called BF and apologized for going off on me the night before about our son. He also made a joke referencing sex with me. I really felt like that was the real him - and I was on track. Until the call from EXBF.<P>I would really like to sit down with H and just simply learn the truth. I'd like to know all the things he never told me while we were married. Maybe it doesn't make a difference now - but it would help me understand who he really is. Should I ask him to go somewhere and talk? If he was truly finished with me - why won't he get his things from the house? Why is he affectionate and sexual with me? BF says he's that way with every female friend he has. I've seen some of that myself, but not to the extent he takes it with me.<P>Am I holding on to hope and reading positives into things where there are none? Although I don't contact him - I feel as long as I give the impression of "waiting" for him - that he won't want me anyway.<P>Please, need more help. I know posting to me is becoming a full time job but today I'm really down. Barely even made it to work. Haven't slept much. I've got to get some input from objective sources like all of you.<P>Thanks,<P>Cali

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>He said no matter what happens, no matter how much I change - he's never coming back.</B><P>Well, Cali, I know that hurts, but don't read too much into it. First off, he is in the fog. Secondly, think of it this way -- right now, in the fog, does your H want to give the BF any hope of getting his W back? No. Expressed thoughts of reconciliation do exactly that. Thirdly, any comments made to the BF about him thinking about you would be expressed right to the BF's W. <P><B>I know I shouldn't trust this EXBF very much.</B><P>Zero. But realize that on some levels your agendas coincide. Both of you want that relationship to break up. However, be aware that the BF would happily help implement that breakup with no thought as to the future of the relationship between you and your W. <P><B>I would really like to sit down with H and just simply learn the truth. Should I ask him to go somewhere and talk?</B><P>"So....I heard you did a lot of drugs?" Hard to see how that would be anything but a lovebust, C.<P>Sorry I don't have anything more concrete to add. I would repeat my counsel to talk to Jennifer or Steve. I know I'm always counseling hardballfor you, and I'm probably wrong on that, but there is a point somewhere on the horizon where Plan B and some legal and custody and support cards have to be played....and they might just shake him out of the cosy situation he is in now.<P>Your comments the other day about your love fading due to his actions made me think that Plan B might be called for soon. <P>But talk to the Harley's before doing anything precipitious.<P><BR>

Thx Mike,<P>I think you're right, plan B is close - I just hope the Harley's can help me find enough hope to continue Plan A for 3 more months. Comment he made to BF when saying he'd never come back:<P>"It's like a dog you have in your house that you really are attached to - then he bites you, repeatedly. So now - even though the dog is acting nice to you - you still don't want to pet it."<P>He'd used that analogy with me once before too. I think that indicates a longer need for Plan A for him to really begin to trust the changes.<P>I am going to schedule with the Harley's. I was going to wait until I got back from my trip. But maybe I should do it now. Don't know yet.<P>I want to thank you for your (sometimes brutal ) honesty. The posts that are most uncomfortable for me to read help me the most. <P>C.

Cali:<P>I agree with Mike - it is very dangerous ground to listen to EXBF, even though he most likely did have a conversation with H, and parts of what he is telling you are truth (but which parts?). EXBF has not proven himself to be the most reliable person, has he? <P>On another board (Divorce Busting), I found this listing (hopefully I won't get in trouble for nicking it!!) and it made a lot of sense. #3 under "Mandatory "Don'ts" especially applys to you with the EXBF situation.<P>Mandatory "Do's":<P>1. Be patient. Time is an assest even when it seems to be killing you.<BR>2. Listen carefully to what your spouse is REALLY saying to you.<BR>3. Learn quickly that anger is your enemy<BR>4. Learn quickly to backoff, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.<BR>5. Take care of yourself. Exercise, sleep, laugh, and focus on all the other chances in your life that are not in turmoil.<BR>6. Be cool, strong, confident and speak softly.<BR>7. Know that if you can do a 180, your smallest consistent actions will be noticed much more than ANY words you can say or write.<BR>8. Read as much as you can on this subject<P>Mandatory "Don'ts":<P>1. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more then ever in your whole life and are desperate and needy.<BR>2. Do not focus on your self when communicating with your spouse.<BR>3. Do not believe any of what you hear and less then 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute neagatives because they are hurting and they are scared.<BR>4. Do not fall into the "green eggs and ham" trap. (see Dr. Suess for clarity)<BR>5. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.<BR>6. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.<P>Although I personally believe very strongly in MB concepts, I think the above has a lot to offer, and I try and apply it whenever my situation seems doomed. Especially #3.<P>Keep up the good work, my friend, we were put on this earth to learn, and man, are we learning.<P>Maggie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>"It's like a dog you have in your house that you really are attached to - then he bites you, repeatedly. So now - even though the dog is acting nice to you - you still don't want to pet it."</B><P>Hmmm....I should have something witty to say here, but that is a thought provoking sentiment.<P>Did you really bite him? <P>Well, that is right out of the textbook on demonstrating the need for a continued Plan A to establishing a new track record, apparently mostly on lovebusters. I mean, he knows he is not dealing with a dog. People can change (and you have!), although their mates sometimes have a hard time admitting that when they use the comfort of past sins to explain their present lack of effort in the relationship. <P><B>I am going to schedule with the Harley's. I was going to wait until I got back from my trip. But maybe I should do it now. Don't know yet.</B><P>Go ahead and schedule as soon as possible...it can take a little while.<P><B>I want to thank you for your (sometimes brutal ) honesty.</B><P>Was I brutal there? I'm sorry.<P>

Cali, I feel for you. My H says he is never coming home either - he is "home". I do not believe it. I can not believe it. <P>I believe in my marriage and I belive it is God's will that it will be restored when the time is right for both of us. <P>The man saying this is not my H - it is his body but not him speaking.<P>Hang in there. Do not believe everything he says. Do not believe OW's H either. He may want you to blow up so he does not have to. Don't fall for it.<P>You are in my prayers.

Hi Cali,<P>Maggie and Mike have been giving you good advice. You didn't really expect H to break out in song exclaiming that he was sooo wrong and now sees the light, did you? <P>What your H is saying maybe the truth. It maybe true right now, it maybe true next month, but will it be true in 6 months a year? Who knows. What everyone does know, is that to admit that he wanted to come back would mean that his feelings and affair with OW were wasted. He is not ready for that admission.<P>The trick here is to focus on the fact that he is not with us mentally. He may come back. Will you be waiting for him when he does? For awhile yes, but eventually, you will know when you are ready.<P>How will you know? You won't be hurt. You won't be mad. You won't be angry. You won't really feel the loss, your life will have moved on. You will feel sad that it came to this point, but you will know you have done your best.<P>You are not at this point yet. You are still hurt, you still get mad, and you are still angry with him. <P>These are my feeling on this matter. You still have work to do on yourself and you still have work to do on your marriage. What work? Oh! that good old T&P Cali. T&P is work, but it is helping you.<P>So don't worry too much about exBF, some of what he said is probably true or at least H thinks it is. But H and OW haven't finished dancing their dance yet, and they may find one chair missing in their relationship when the music stops. <P>So just repeat after me T&P, T&P, and don't forget to breath. You are doing fine Cali. Don't panic, all of this waffling is normal, what you want to watch is the trend. Is he talking to you more, is he visiting S more? Does he apologize more? In short are you seeing signs of a human being under there rather than the alien that abducted him?<P>Hang in there Cali, you are growing and learning you cannot lose here.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Maggie! It's so good to hear from you. Where are you posting? How are you doing? Fill me in!<P>Thanks for "stealing" for me. #3, #3, #3, #3. Yes - that's for me! Actually, the whole thing gave me a sense of calm. Much needed inspiration, Maggie - thank you so much.<P>Mike -<P>Yes, I did bite him ! (many many times, in fact) hehehehehe I can be brutal in my own way. <evil grin> <P>JL - <P><sigh> If you weren't my Dad I think I could fall for you. <P>Seriously, I feel like I've reached a Y in the road. Like I've done all I can inside myself to be a calmer, happier, more relaxed person that is approachable, enjoys little silly things. In general I'm just more at peace. Even amidst all this. I guess I'm uncertain how to find the other things I can work on now - without a valuable exchange with my spouse. I need to interact more with others so I can see me. It's very hard to see your own changes, I need mirrors. Any wisdom on this?<P>Thanks guys. I'll call the Harley's.....<P>....and Plan A some more.<P><BR>T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P T&P<BR>(yes I'm wearing a pleated miniskirt AND I have pompoms) <P>Cali<p>[This message has been edited by Cali (edited August 31, 2000).]

Cali, THIS IS YOUR FATHER SPEAKING. <P>Or some old cogger .<P>You have run out of things to work on??? Great! Seriously, you are at the place you should be. Now you can Plan A in peace. What I am saying is if you are beginning to feel at peace and calming down, now you are ready to do "the be nice and pleasant" part of plan A, no LB's. It is now easier.<P>Continue with you life, enjoy your S, go out, do social functions, and everytime you get a chance lay some serious Plan A on H. <P>Just keep those Pom-Poms twirling, T&P T&P T&P. It is just in time, football season is coming you know. <P>Seriously Cali, you can only do so much and then you have to let events in your H's life transpire as they will. You know stuff happens, so let it happen to him. You will be there and you will be at peace and confident in yourself. That means you are in a better place to help yourself and your H, when the time comes.<P>If it doesn't come you are where you know you are supposed to be.<P>You are doing fine Cali, take it from "old Dad". <P>God Bless,<P>JL