I think Dr. Harley states that most affairs end on their own within two years after discovery and being out in the open. I lent my book to a friend so I can't verify this. Does anyone remember this statement? Has this happened to any of you that the affair eventually ended on its own once out in the open? It just couldn't survive in the daylight?<P>My intuition tells me that h affair is finally over after many years and 17 months post discovery. He's told me several times that it's been over for a while but there have been so many lies and contradictions that I haven't really believe him. I know that it wasn't over many times that he told me it was. Why lie when he lives in an apt anyway? (I know she never lived with him) I think he didn't want to hurt me anymore and he felt like he was protecting me somehow. Of course that wasn't the case, it was torture not knowing and being lied to over and over even after discovery.<P>Any feedback would be appreciated just to keep my hopes up. <P>My profile is still there if you don't know my story (long)<P>Chris

I have the book with me today.<P>"Most affairs last less than six months after they are exposed to the light of day."<P>"A very few may survive two years of sunlight but that is rare, especially when a betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair a chance to destroy itself.

Hoping,<P>I don't have my book in front of me right now but I believe two years was a worst case scenario. My H's A ended a couple of months after d day. He said it was already dying. I am not sure about that statement. I truly believe that secrecy is the major bond between the two. Also readig Dr. Harley's books were a real eye opener for my H. <P>Its very hard to believe things that the WS says after discovery. Its hard for everyone. Your trust has been violated and you are deeply hurt. Naturally, you are going to have your radar on. If his actions and your intuition indicate that he is telling the truth, then you should try and trust in that. You will know when something is up. You will feel it.<BR>Hope that helps a little<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A very few may survive two years of sunlight but that is rare, especially when a betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair a chance to destroy itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Been 19 months for me. I keep telling Steve Harley, "what's the deal? I'm past the six months! I'm screwing up your stats." We just chuckle about it.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Hi Hoping,<P>It is nice to see your name. How are you?<P>I'm still here too and wondering about that timeline as well. I think the critical statement (which I tend to forget about as do many others here) is in I Believe's post above "especially when a betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair a chance to destroy itself." <P>I can't remember if you ever really implemented plan B while you knew the affair was active (i'm sorry but your profile isn't showing up). If you tried and failed - fell back into plan A, you would be no different than Lor or many others here - or me for that matter. Plan B is very hard - especially with kids. But if you did, did you have a sense that the affair ended then? What makes you think it is ongoing? If it is only the fact that he continues to live in the apartment, that is one thing. Are there other clues? I agree with those who say that it is natural to be suspicious having had your trust broken, but you are also much more experienced at recognizing clues. What do yu really feel is the truth (not just what your H is saying to you)?<P>Brief update on me - I was never really able to keep to my plan B initiated in June with Steve H's help/counseling. It is terribly difficult when you are separated by some distance, and still want the kids to have meaningful contact. And I couldn't handle how H and OW's interaction intensified (although OW still lives in my city - not in his)and how H only saw the kids once in 2 months. But, as a result, the affair is ongoing, still, 20 months after discovery and over two years since it started. The fact that we are separated and living in different cities does not make it hurt any less. I am letting H "act as if" we are still "married" the couple times a month (or less) that we see each other and it is killing the love I have left for him - I have so little left to give. This is not the solution either. <P>Anyway, I digress. I know the trials you have had and how you have hung in there. You have been nothing short of amazing in your dedication to your H and your marriage. Is it time to speak with steve or someone and see what makes sense from here? Even if the affair is over - and perhaps it is, he could help you assess how long you can you stay in the current situation without it draining your lovebank. Is your H even willing to attempt counseling with you? Or is he still "trying to figure out what he wants"? I know for me if I hear that line one more time I will likely blow a head gasket - when lovebanks run low, patience runs thin. It does help to have a plan in place.<P>I admire you so much Hoping and it really **sses me off that you are still in this situation. I hope you will act with your best interest in mind. Yes most affairs die within two years of discovery - but there are always those rare outliers. I think steve or some harley would be very helpful to you in sorting through this. (Now I sound like K don't I ).<P>Take care hoping,<BR>Starpony<p>[This message has been edited by Starpony (edited September 01, 2000).]

Starpony and Hoping,<P>When I looked that up for Hoping it gave me a jolt. I just got the book and am only on chapter 7 so I am not through it the first time yet. <P>"especially when the betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair the chance to destoy itself."<P>Let go, stand aside and let God do His work on our husbands, back off, do a 180, act as if, whatever name you call it the meaning is the same. Stay out of their way and let their actions destroy the affair on its own.... Let it die a natural death as it states in the SAA book.<P>In the meantime we do things for ourselves, work on making ourselves better, stronger people, take care of our children.<P>As I read over this it makes it seem so simple - it is not. It is hard. It hurts. When I see my H and one day he acts like I am nothing to him and we do not have 22 years behind us it is like a knife in the heart. Then the next day he is talking to me like I am a good friend. ( I want more of these days ) Then there are the days he is angry, depressed, confused. These are the days he seems to seek me more. I try to be his friend then because I want him to come to me. <P>I do not like rollercoasters - I am on one now. I have not been on this ride as long as you 2 have been. D-day was 6/23 (EA) and H moved in with her 8/4. I do not even know where to start counting months from. The EA started Oct/Nov??? - One month per years married has been thrown around - we have been married 15 years.<BR>

Hoping,<P>Just a link to an earlier post...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000149.html" TARGET=_blank>2 year time frame?</A>…..already divorced…..1/22/2000<P> <P>Jim

What Starpony says... <P>

Cleopatra - My h was so confused at discovery. He was very honest and stated he was confused and wanted both. He said he would break it off but it had just started up again after three months apart. My h had surgery and was on medical leave for three months and since they worked together he didn't see her those three months. She began seeing another married man. When he returned to work it started up again and that's when I found out. <P>He lied so many times after that and they were such blatant lies. I never had hard evidence but he would do things such as dissappear for a whole Sunday saying he was shopping. It's when things don't make sense that I don't believe him. <P>Chris (CA123)- We may be one of those rare cases that hit the two year mark.<P>Starpony - Hi. No I have'nt been very good at letting go although in our cases h isn't living with us so in a sense we have no choice but to let go to a certain extent. I have failed plan b several times. Too hard with the kids. They miss their dad too much. I'm sure that the affair was ongoing for a long time, just too many strange happenings and a year ago right when he moved into apartment I caught them coming out of his apartment building even though he had sworn to me that he wasn't seeing her anymore that he moved there to get things together. <P>If the a has truly ended I think it has happened recently (last 4-5 months. Perhaps she couldn't the vast amount of time he spent with us or he is finally coming out of the fog and realizing that the grass isn't greener on the other side. He got a new job two months ago so that is probably helping also. No more daily contactg. His job is ten minutes away from home so he comes here every day after work but goes to apt 1/2 hour away about 9PM every night. That's got to get old soon too.<P>H won't go to counseling but I think he's realizing that I'm approaching the limit on my patience. That he needs to make a decision about where he wants to sleep at night. <P>Email me if you feel like chatting Cwalker842@aol.com<P>I believe - I have not been successfull at letting go. I am naturally an independent person and can do my own thing. I don't need him in my life, I want him in my life. Hopefully it has died on it's own without me having to let go completely. Perhaps his living in his apt and being able to see her even though he lied about it has made him realize that that is not the kind of life he wants. He is very involved in his childrens lives and he knows that I will never willingly let her be a part of their life. <P><BR>Sometimes, I feel like a classic case. Affair with co worker, upon discovery they say they will break it off, but it continues. They move out to "think" but it probably still involves ow. They are not "in love" but love us. They say ridiculous things to justify affair and contradict themselves months later. H gets new job and things start to change. No more daily contact. Approaching 19 months and maybe fog is starting to lift. Sometimes I catch him staring at me like he's been hit with the revelation that I am the person he's known over 20 years, the person that was once his soul mate, his wife of 14 years, mother of his children, not as bad as he made me out to be for justification. It's just a weird, thoughtful, loving look.<P>I pray that my intuition is right, that she is finally out of our lives and he know what he wants and will move home soon. <P>Thanks for the replies<P>Chris<BR>

I am indepentamt also. I know I will be ok without him. But I want him in my life as well. I am having the same trouble of letting go. I saw him twice tonight. The first time I was ok. He was talking to me and asking questions. The second time he tried to act like I did not exist. I never know what is going to occur so I follow his lead right now.

It's been almost 17 months since discovery and he is still living with her. It makes no difference that she treats him with disrespect, or that she makes it obvious she wants our children around as little as possible. She can meet what is probably his most important EN - financial security.

Hoping. Seems we have a similar situation in that my H's A is with a coworker. I am positive it started off innocently for my H. He doesn't have many friends (male), always getting along better with females. He's good as sharing his thoughts with woman.<P>Too much stress, too many long hours and a circling vulture.<P>Now you've seen what's happened in my case.. a pregnancy. I wasn't surprised. My H was.<P>I've been going through this for 8 months and they are not living together, but I think reality will have no choice but to creep in.<P>I feel like you do regarding the emotional distance from H. It has been the most disconcerting thing for me.<P>Except for maybe a couple of months before the trip I felt connected to my H.<P>It is so difficult to suddenly feel the switch going off and realizing you could be just some stranger. It's still hard for me to comprehend how this can happen. I try with all of my might to "experience" it myself and I can't.<P>Since the new revelation, I also have seen my H "look" at me. He has been in such a deep deep fog prior to this. It's just little glimpses of his former self, but it is refreshing. <P>Right now, we are still very distant. But at least I don't feel like the enemy anymore.<P>I don't know what's going to happen. I'm just willing to let him see the kids and be his friend...since he needs all that he can get.

Hoping, Starpony its been awhile since I've seen your names & I think of you often.<P>Re: 2 years after discovery. The frequent interaction of Guard's affair was over at 10 months after disclosure...I think it took another 4 months for him to not want/think about that contact. Which brought him almost exactly to the 2 year point of the PA & I think the EA was going for awhile before that. Years maybe. I certainly remember how nasty she was when we met (oh, Lor, she was not. I don't remember that, he said)...and supposedly nothing was going on at that time, but I think she had a big ole bullseye on Guard. The wench.<P>I'm a little irritable with her email this week. Proud of Guard for telling me, but back to wishing I could wipe her off the face of the earth. And, the last couple days for us have been "off". Which stirs my fears...which makes Guard want to distance himself. And it's my opinion that we've been doing good. <P>I know Guard believes our marriage to be the right thing--a huge improvement, as you guys well know! I was ironing this morning and he hugged me and told me he loves me. So, we're both for the marriage.<P>Starpony, I know you especially wondered when I lost all desire for the marriage--the too late for Plan B feeling. I want you to know that the love was there, it was just buried, locked away if you will. I do love Guard, am "in love" with Guard. And he is saying the same words to me.<P>He's also off his anti-deps. I fed him St. John's Wort this morning (no, not in his cereal, I offered him a tablet ). I'm worried about the depression coming back. I'm taking St. John's again myself--want to keep as even-keeled as I can. I still have a prescription for Zoloft as well, and I haven't ruled out using it!<P>Sorry, I'm rattling on. But I felt among friends. <P>I know we're still healing and it will take time and patience--I tell OTHER people all the time. : I just am feeling weary of the effort. And I work today on a Saturday and (whine, whine, whine )<P>I pray that both your H's WAKE UP. You are both terrific. <P>Not to leave anyone out, this thread is full of terrific people who I pray their spouses come fully back to their marriages.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

And what do you do when the A isn't a co-worker but the job itself?? How do you make them choose between their career and their family when it's the financial security they feel they need more?? I've told him I don't care about the money..sure it's nice..but..it's NOT a big EN for me..I know<BR>it has to do w/ his childhood of being poor,<BR>and all but how do you compete w/ that internal insecurity? How do you make them feel secure when that has to come from w/in <BR>themself??

ThornedRose,<P>You can't compete with financial security - whether from a job or an OW. I'm pretty sure that my H would still be here if I could have somehow managed to raise six kids while working full-time without putting them in daycare - because he was, if anything, less happy than I about daycare. My H grew up poor too. Thinking back, the times when he seemed unhappy all involved lack of financial security - when we went to graduate school, when I quit working to stay home with the kids and his company had a series of layoffs, and then, right before the affair, when our oldest went to college and the stock of the company he worked for plummeted. Now he has been unemployed for months, our kids and I are living below the poverty level, and I'd bet he doesn't think he could afford to leave the OW if he wanted to. Money is power, and I can't compete with that.

I got to the point I told him not to come home..he can have his job..but he doesn't have a place to come home to anymore and when he wants to see the kids he will have to find someplace else to stay..it was so hard..and I felt soooo guilty..but I am tired of him never being here..his job has taken him away from home for nine years..all because he's<BR>insecure..he feels broke if he doesn't have money in his pocket, doesn't matter if there is nothing in the savings..or there is nothing in the bank..or me and the kids don't have any, as long as HE has some in his pocket..telling him no I couldn't send him any this past week, and telling him he can't come home..was so hard. I told him I don't trust him to protect me or meet my emotional needs..it's not all his fault..and I know that because I have been doing my own emotional healing..but it's still hard..

Too Trusting - My h told me upon discovery that he was innocent in the beginning too. That she pursued him.<P>I sometimes feel like the enemy too, however that feeling is slowly going away. That's sad isn't it. We've known each other over twenty year and I felt like it was them against me. <P>Lor - Good to hear from you and yes you were among friends. You, I and Starpony had/have very very similar situations and have been on this board a long long time. Feel free to rattle on when ever you like or even e-mail cwalker842@aol.com. <P>I am hoping that this two year time frame holds water. I never thought I would get to this point. You gave me a lot of advice over the last 17 months based on your experiences. Some of it I didn't want to believe at the time, but you were always right on the mark. <P>I'm so glad that things are going well between you and guard. It gives me hope that my own marriage may eventually get to that point.<P>Keep in touch.<P>Chris

Well, I hate to jump in here and rattle things up. Unfortunately my h has beat the two year thing. His affair has been going on for 5+ years. However in this case I feel the reason is it has always been long distance. Until he moved out a year ago, they never saw each other more than a few times a year. Even now they see each other about 1 week a month. The magic of the fantast holds under these circumstances. Another hint that this is the case is he said to me recently he feels better about her and himself when he goes to visit her where she lives rather then when she is here. The reason is here there is reality, he still has to see the kids, his guilt, working as well as keeping it all up. If he goes there it is pure vacation and no reality of the rest of his life intrudes. <BR>We saw my yongest daughter's counselor the other day. She was asking about where things were. After he told her she said so the fantasy part hasn't died since this is still a long distance relationship. Interesting in Dec when he met her the first time he thought this counselor was great. When we walked out this time, he said he didn't like her. I laughed quietly to myself.<BR>So sometimes these things do take longer to work out, unfortunately.

Hoping,<BR>Re: you not taking my advice. One of the things Guard told me while he was reading here was that he thought I gave good advice to other people...why oh why didn't I follow it? <P>Something keeps your H from really coming home...Guard considered his house a "safety net". It was very difficult for him to give it up this month, and consider that he began living at home in May--and he was sure that our marriage was the right thing for him. He wasn't sure of me, he wasn't sure of himself. He didn't want to lose a place to run to.<P>Cutting that net was hard. And sometimes the commotion of our household is difficult for him to manage and he thinks fondly of the peace there, forgetting the lonliness and the longing he felt for being in our house & daily family.<P>I don't know what sort of state of mind your H is in. I don't know if he wants a safety net or if he's on the fence or whatever else it may be.<P>As I said, the OW was out of Guard's life for the most part since Oct 99, yet he left me then, he left me again in Jan.<P>So, sometimes it is no longer the OW, but the fallout.<P>Can you ask your H "what is it that would make it possible for you to move home?" His answer, or non-answer could be revealing.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

hoping, My H even said at one early lucic moment that he didn't intend for this to happen during the trip. So, their relationship had probably already crossed the lines by then, but I do not think he understood how much.<P>That's probably why he retreated into the grandiose fantasy land... I can only guess.<P>I still have a hard time with what he thought (thinks ) of me. It's very bizaar to be demoted to stranger status, as well as having him paranoid about what I am saying or doing.<P>I mean, I am not the one doing anything "wrong" here. It's the thinking that I am following them, collecting evidence, telling everyone things. And yet, it is OW who has gleefully told the staff about "our problems" and told everyone we are getting a D... And SHE is sleeping with him... I mean really. <P>It doesn't seem possible that this behavior is coming from 40 something, very intellegent professionals!!!<P>Standing away from it, which I have mostly done, it looks insane!!!