Hi,<P>Here I am on a Saturday afternoon, CLEANING AGAIN!<P>My brain is driving me crazy. I keep thinking bad thoughts about H and I, then the next moment good thougths about H and I. <P>Hope....NO Hope.....Hope....NO Hope...on and on.<P>Every aspect of the A, every stage is a rollercoaster, just a new seat. This new seat is a bit farther back but still feel the [E]motions. I use to really love rollercoaster rides too. But that was when you could get off at will.<P>Anyone else out there doing Plan B? How's it going? HAs anyone selse out there had a successful Plan B? If so, PLEEEEASE tell me about it. I need some encouragement, BAD!<P>Jo<P>p.s. NSR, please don;t ask me if I sent the B letter ... I haven't. Just don't know what to say, and my H has the SAA book so I can't steal with pride.<P>------------------<BR>Josie_Res@Hotmail.com<P>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"

Hey Jo...<P>If your up to it...<BR>...and your cleaning is done...<BR>...I'll help you draft up a Plan B letter.<P>We could make it a bit different...<BR>...even with your H understanding what it is for.<P>Honest..<P> <P>Jim

NSR,<P>You're just the BEST!<P>I really don't know where to start. Do you have a tempate (non-SAA format) available???<P>If you could get me started with some sort of skeleton format, I'd be very appreciative.<P>I'll be off/on the board the next few hours.<P>Thanks a whole heck of alot. Don't know what we here at MB would do without our NSR!<P>Best and thanks again!<P>Jo

Hey Jo!<P>Although I'm in plan D, I respond you since you asked me how I'm doing in a different thread.<P>What happened was... I talked to one of my H's friend. He was cheating on his girlfriend of 8 years and he left her(but she was always around while he was seeing OW), and about after 2 years he finally came out of the fog and he feels very sorry for what he's done. Now he wants to commit to the relationship with his girlfriend(whom he left) but she is so mad so things aren't going well.<BR>Anyway I talked to him about my situation, and I found out more lies. I felt so low after talking to him(although it was very interesting to hear from a betrayer who came to his senses), then I called my SIL about something else. Then I ended up asking her if she would invite OW.. Then she didn't say no, and the way she said was she would.. I mean if she invites my H and he brought OW with him what can she do right? But I felt so low I kinda screamed and said that's betrayal blah blah blah. That was yesterday. Today I talked to her H(my H's brother) and he said pretty much the same thing, he even said if I wanted him to decide between me and my H. Of course not. He basically said my H is his brother no matter what. And I know, but I wanted him to choose either me or OW. Anyway, he told me he has no choice about it even if he was happy or unhappy about the situation. Then he told me he would tell his W about me calling. Anyway she never called me. Later I had a rage to call OW big, big time so called some friends and one was not home and one answered. I started to cry and although she had to attend to a wedding she came to my place. By then I was pretty calmed down so we talked for a while. After she left another friend called me so we talked and I was pretty ok. At the end I called and left a message to appologize to my in-laws about my behavior earlier. Anyway I never got back from them. Now I realized they weren't there for me when I really needed someone.. I thought we were pretty close but I guess it was just pretending. Now I know. It hurts, because I like them but now I won't be able to open up like I did before. I will be nice to them next time I talk to them(if that happens). See, I'm not very close to my own family and they live in a different country. I haven't seen them since 93, and they don't know how I'm doing. so I felt my H's family were my family.. at least 3 of them were very nice to me and I like them alot. But nothing will be the same. I guess I can't pretend very well so I assumed their kindness was real... but I don't know anymore.<P>So I called my niece's place(where my H is supposed to be living but I doubt it) and asked about divorce again(on her answering machine). And I will file myself soon because after talking to his friend I feel that he will never be able to take any responsibility for what he's done, he hasn't changed and he never will. I'm losing a love for him. Now I don't have a family to support me either.<P>That's what happened.. my friends helped me alot though. One of them told me she would never invite OW , at least someone is on my side .<P>How are you doing? I hope you are not as low as I am.<BR>Have a good weekend,<BR>Hugs,<P>Meg

Dang it, Meg!<P>I know my in-laws will do whatever my H wants, I don't think they'll be happy about it, but they won't trun him away, which is the right thing to do.<P>Two of my SILs have heard the notorious ABUSIVE tape msgs from OW. They are appalled and were so mortified and apologized profusely. So they'll be looking at her with binoculars if H takes her to in-laws. Plus I think I'll play it for them again right before the Holidays. I'm bad, I know.<P>I'm in the same boat as you, I have no family to speak of and my in-laws (3 SILs) are my family and have been for 20 years. It's hard on them too, so I understand but it hurts where there just aren't words.<P>Meg, what you did with your in-laws is understandable. They've been your family and probably very supportive, but when push comes to shove, their blood and we're not.<P>You guys are close still, Meg, they're just in a situation that is difficult at best. If they don't allow their bro to bring his piece of sh*t girlfriend then they may loose him or things could get bad between all of them.<P>But I'm with you, I wish they'd just say "NO" and then make our H's start to think how this relationship is hurting sooooo many ppl. Not just the triangle ppl.<P>Meg, do you REALLY want a divorce? I don;t think this situtation has played out yet and I'm wondering if your just getting so down and hurt that you're trying to HURT your H back instead of keeping sight of what you really want. Remember.... we're twins and I do exactly the same thing. I wnat to HURT my H at times too and D is the only weapon. So I hope when I am feeling this way you'll reciprocate and remind me of this.<P>I'm so sorry you're hurting so bad today. I think you and I should talk on the phone sometime. If you send me your email addy, I'll send you back my phone number. Sound like a plan???<P>Be well Meg and please don't hurt so bad.<P>I'll be on the board off/on for the next couple hours.<P>Jo

Sorry Jo, I'm jumping on your thread to talk to Meg,<P>Meg,<BR>Just wanted to tell you my H did the same thing. NEVER wanted kids, had a vasectomy with no pushing from me 10 years ago. Then when he was telling me the reasons he wanted out of this marriage, reason # 2 was because I made him have a vasectomy and he may have changed his mind.<BR>Do you think it is part of the MLC thing and facing their own mortality? <P>So far my in laws are hanging in there and saying they will invite me to the holidays and if he wants to bring OW thats his and OW thing to deal with. Can't you imagine that cozy get together?<BR>Lora

Ok...<BR>...a somewhat generic Plan B draft...<P><B>Basic elements of a Plan B letter:</B><BR>1. Make it a love letter (apologies & how you can/will correct)<BR>2. No lovebusters<BR>3. Make "NO CONTACT" clear<BR>4. Make unambiguous the "condition" of return to marital relationships<BR>5. Limit references to OP<BR>6. Plan out the logistics (as best as possible)<P>----------------draft-----------------------<P>Dearest <spouse>,<P><I>[preliminary words]</I><BR> It is with a heavy heart that I write this letter to you. It is truly sad to see what has happened to us and to our marriage. The decision I now make is out of a necessity to spare what I can for love of you.<P><I>[apologizing words]</I><BR> I have made many mistakes in the past and cannot change those mistakes or take them back. <list them here… be honest… but don't knock yourself down… limit the number to the top 3…><P><I>[corrective steps]</I><BR> What I have been able to do is recognize those errors in judgment and action or inaction; and I have learned from them so much. The depth of my understanding, of those failings, has taken me to honestly and with great effort to take steps that will ensure that they will not happen again. <list the ENs that you can fulfill <B>and</B> how you will do this… again be honest… and limit the number to the top 3 or 4> <If you know you can honestly apply the POJA… say you can and how you will do it><P><I>[acknowledgment of environment of marriage]</I><BR> I am truly sorry for helping to create and sustain an environment that has made your affair possible and allowed it to continue. I too had a responsibility to meet your most important needs; and by lacking the right judgment, I did little to aid efforts in building and growing our love for each other. The importance of <spouses needs>, I lost sight of. Now I know I am more than able to not just meet those needs, but to be lovingly enthusiastic in the doing.<P><I>[rationalization for movement to Plan B]</I><BR>…I have had a most difficult time in the last <several months, years…>. There has been pain and hurt in the time spent learning to mend my failings. The pain and hurt, even though causing me great anguish, has let me know what strength I really possess. The dual nature of hurt and strength makes a conflict that now leads me to an inescapable conclusion. This conclusion, I will hold firm to, as I have learned my strength will only be in my resolve.<P><I>[the main element of Plan B]</I><BR> <spouse>, the conclusion I write of, is that…Until you end your relationship with <OP>, I can no longer see you or in anyway communicate with you! The continued pain has become an unhealthy part of my learning to be the best possible <wife/husband> for the one I love.<P><I>[punishment issue]</I><BR> <spouse>, this decision I make, I do not make lightly. It is not meant as a measure to punish you. It is simply meant as a way to no longer drain the love I have had for you, even the kind of love I had for you during the time of the affair.<P><I>[if the WS knows about "Plan B"]</I><BR> You know about Plan B. It is not a gimmick. It is an honest effort to retain a love that you do not see right now. In time, I hope you will see that love; but I am not naïve, and I realize you may never accept that gift of love again.<P><I>[reiteration of condition and logistics of Plan B]</I><BR>As soon as you can fully, permanently and unconditionally separate from <OP>, and are willing to commit to measures to verify that separation, I am willing to do whatever it takes to start a full recovery of our marriage.<P>Until then, I will not be able to <list of actions…<BR>avoid seeing you…<BR>avoid all communications of any form…<BR>offer no financial support…<BR>whatever else…><P>In the best interest of those involved, I will <list of concerns…<BR>expect legal requirements to be upheld…<BR>minimize impact to the children… and offer acceptable and extraordinary visitation rights…<BR>eliminate any negative explanations to family and friends<BR>whatever else…><P> <Work out logistics>…<BR> <How is "contact" to occur in "emergency" situations.><BR> <Frequency of telephone contact (if any due to children)><BR> <Frequency of e-mail contact (if any in joint "planning")><BR> <Who will act as intermediaries><P><I>[what the future would/could hold (post Plan B)]</I><BR> I want us, not me alone and not you alone, but us to rebuild our marriage. We need to build a new lifestyle. Everything can be done to make us both happy. I know it is possible for our marriage to flourish, and have no more separations in body or spirit. I want to be your best friend and a <wife/husband> that any <man/woman> would be proud to have as a spouse.<P><I>[any other endearments of special parting thoughts]</I><BR>-I want to grow old with you.<BR>-When I said “I DO,” I made a promise in front of God, you, our family and friends for life. <BR>-I want to be your <wife/husband>, your friend, and your lover.<BR>-I loved you more that life itself while we were together and I continue to do so as I write this. <P><I>[final reiteration of the main element of Plan B]</I><BR> As soon as you are willing to separate completely from your “friendship” with <OP>, I will be willing to discuss our future together. <P>Your loving spouse, <and any other endearment that is personal and touching><P><me><BR>------------------end--------------------<P>I hope this helps...<BR>...I did borrow heavily from [b]Rutger[b]'s sample...<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited September 10, 2000).]

Hi again,<P>I feel like crushing your thread!!! <BR>I really don't know about my in-laws anymore. I'm sure they are irritated... and if so it's ok, now I know I don't have a family.. better than having a fake one. One of my friends said that I should make new one.. and she and another friend will be my new family.<P>I don't know if I want a divorce or not. But I really don't think my H will be back at this point. In the past he always run away from his problems so he didn't have to take responsibility. He still is the same. Also, I'm not interested in living with him even if he wants to be with me.<BR>Maybe after 5 years he may come back, but I can't wait anymore, and after all of the stuff he's done I don't have anything to hold on to. I want to see someone without feeling weird because I'm still legally married. Maybe I won't see anyone but at least if I'm free I have a choice(I mean I can see someone being married but I still feel weird about it). I don't think my H would care.. if he cared about being married what is he doing right now? He's just lazy, and for him married or not he does what he wants to do, so doesn't matter.<BR>I'm very tired and now I'm losing any respcet... I thought at least he could do this to take responsibility.. but he can't even do that. More I talk to his friend I find more lies. I started to think he was never honest with me.<P>As you may noticed English isn't my mother tongue so if we talk on the phone you will hard time understanding!! My e-mail address: mrslate@microtec.net<BR>We can also chat with AOLIM. <P>So, you are working on Plan B letter, huh? I hope your H wake up from his dreamland..<P>I don't think you are bad to remind your in-laws about the abuse of OW. That kind of person should never be welcomed!!!<BR>Jo, thanks for the confort... I really appreciate it.<P>Lora,<BR>I definitely think my H is in MLC. He always said so. But also the way he's dealing with this(A) doesn't make me have a hope. He has a big issue about his father and his childhood and he can't deal with it, it's too scary for him to face himself.. so he will never change. He will just go to next one when he has problems with previous one.<P>It may sound weird but at least the way your in-laws are going to do things sounds right to me.. I don't want to see OW but I don't want them to choose either me or H when they have to invite us. They should invite both of us and if H wants to bring OW then that's at least his choice.. But since I was never close to them they will just invite my H and avoid me. And that's fine, no more pretending.<P>Lora, thanks for your post .<P>Meg<P>P.S. I should clean my place!!!

Dear NSR,<P>Gosh, this is an excellent start for me. Some of the paragraphs already sound like ME!<P>I'm printing it and will add what's necessary for me to send it to Steve, but before doing so, I'll post it here and have you guys beat it up.<P>This is pretty scary, but I see the words in this letter explain how I really do feel. I can only pray and hope he reads it and it means something to him.<P>I can also see that it reveals the following:<P>I still have respect for him and his choices.<BR>I've taken responsibility for my half of the mistakes.<BR>I'm setting boundaries.<BR>I have made it safe to return to me.<BR>I've told him a new marriage is what it will take to make us both happy.<BR>I love him and believe in him.<P>Thank you again NSR, you must have spent alot of time putting it together, and I know how valuable your time is with your children. Just thank you so much for helping me.<P>Be looking for my version very soon.<P>Best and God Bless you Jim!<P>Jo

Hey Jo,<P>Just wanted to tell you that it does get better with, bad word here, time.<P>I haven't heard from Val in well over a month. We have nothing to discuss. The D should be final any day now.<P>We have no children together, just some bills we collected over the past few years. She sends me two checks a month voluntarily to cover half the expences. <P>She used to send cards with the checks in and I thought that was a kick in the [censored]. Told her to stop. Then she sent them with notes asking how I was, etc. Since I told her the D is coming I get blank sheets of paper and that's fine for me.<P>She was playing head games with me and I don't deserve that. I utilize the same principles that they do. I only remember the bad times and it makes it so much easier. I just think of the many times she has lied to me and the love for her is gone.<P>I have most recently starting asking about some of the women I meet in the nursing homes and hospitals. I'm ready to start dating again. One of my buds is checking out the stats on a girl I met last week.<P>I won't ask anyone out until the D decree is in my hot little patties, but I can look at the menu now.<P>Wishing us all the Best,<P>Zippy

Hey Zippy!<P>You going to this MB outing I'm hearing about? Could be BIG trouble, sounds like there's a 8 to 1 ratio regarding male/female attendance. <P>Time huh? Yeah, I'm not gonna file, my H doesn't want to either, so I guess we're both sitting on the fence.<P>NSR has been awesome helping me with the B letter, pretty apprehensive about it but I think it's time.<P>So, you're checking out the menu ... I suggest you have lots of fun but don't look for any committed relationship, just be happy with you and date ALOT!<P>It's Val's loss,Zip. She's gotta be nuts to let someone like you slip away. Thing is, by the time she realizes it, it'll be too late.<P>Sucks to be her!<P>Thanks for your words of encouragement. Just taking it one day at a time, nice and slow.<P>Jo