Hi K,<P>I read your response to Starpony, and really understood the point about Plan B and not waiting too long.<P>I recently discovered that my husband has resumed the affair, and wrote about it on a post here (Love and support). I probably should say that he never really ended the affair, just paused it for over seven months. Mthrrhbard responded on that thread and suggested that it might be time for plan B.<P>My question is this- How do I know if it is time for that? When I discovered the affair last September, they stopped seeing each other. There were a few phone calls in October regarding STD tests we had done, and he occasionally ran into her at public places (very small town, bound to happen), as did I.<P>During the winter she left a message on his answering machine that he did not respond to (or at least he told me so and I would have no way to find out she had even done it otherwise).<P>She began emailing him at work in June and the phone calls began shortly thereafter. They began seeing each other again in July. He did not tell me any of this, though I knew something was wrong by his behavior. I asked him several times during this period if there had been any contact by email or phone and he denied it.<P>On August 16, the other woman's husband gave me a tape of a phone conversation between my husband and his wife that he had recorded. It proved that they had been in contact by email and phone. When I confronted my husband with the tape, he admitted that they had been meeting again and that the physical aspect of the affair had reoccurred. I handled it better this time, and didn't really ask for details.<P>My husband has apologized, asked for forgiveness and another chance, and truly seems sincere this time. Neither of us wants to divorce. He refused to send the other woman a letter to end contact last year, but is doing so this time. He has agreed to go to a counselor and get treatment for his depression as needed. <P>My plan is to give him the chance he has asked for, and to try my best to forgive him and restore our marriage (plan A, right?), but to go to plan B if another reoccurrance happens. Does this seem sensible to you, or is mthrrhbard right?<P>I would really appreciate your take on this. By the way, my husband is Firestorm, and he also will read this post.<P>Thanks,<P>Peppermint

Peppermint,<P>I suffered through a botched attempt of my wife to end her affair---although the timeframe of quitting to rediscovery was much more compressed than yours (I'd say about 1.5-2 months). <P>The second time is very hard---in many ways, it was much harder than the first discovery. But you have a different situation---in my situation, my wife basically said that she wasn't ready to end the relationship again. That she needed time. There was no talk of counseling, or anything else. At that point, I decided on a timeframe of around another month of Plan A, and then a move to Plan B. The were a few reasons for me to delay Plan B, but one of the "MB" reasons was so that Plan B would be MY ACTION, not a REACTION to something my wife had done.<P>Your situation is different. If firestorm is really interested in reconciling, I would continue in Plan A/recovery, but with a very definite plan. He should know full well that you won't be able to deal with the affair rekindling again and again---it really drains all hope for the marriage.<P>You always need to use the POJA with your spouse in negotiating a recovery, but these would be the issues that I would think you'd need fully addressed:<P>1. No contact letter.<P>2. Complete turnover of any "contact" stuff---email, cell phones, pagers. That's going to feel like a jail sentence to firestorm, but at this point in your marriage, there should be NO PRIVACY. He shouldn't be trusted---he has to earn that. The benefit for you is that if he cooperates, you'll regain the trust quicker. The benefit for him is that this addiction isn't going to be trivial to break, and he needs to be accountable. It's "win-win", but he needs to buy into it. Also, he needs to follow the "Rule of Complete Honesty", and let you know if contact happens IMMEDIATELY.<P>3. Treatment for his depression is essential.<P>4. I would recommend that you both do the phone counseling here at MarriageBuilders. This is such a critical juncture in your marriage that you really should have a professional with your marriage as the top interest coaching you. Steve or Jennifer can do that (888-639-1639). One of the reasons that our recovery has lagged in a couple of areas is because we didn't do joint counseling (and stick with it); mainly because my wife didn't "like" the forms, and had bad memories of Steve. Now she's counseling with Jennifer, and she's really doing great with it! Please do the counseling.<P>Those are the main issues. If firestorm can't agree to them, you need to have him tell you why. These are basically to help him through withdrawal as quickly as possible (a 2-week vacation is a recommendation, too). It's to help the both of you start learning the marital behaviors you both need to feel loved. If you do these items, and work on the program, I'm betting in six months you'll be on your way to "in love". If he has issues with any of these points, try to address them in a way that makes negotiation "safe and pleasant" (Give and Take). <P>Without those conditions met, however, I'd be worried about your chances for a reoccurance. If you're aware of that and can handle it without losing all your love (and going to plan "divorce"), then you may want to give it a shot. If you don't think you can handle another lapse, AND if firestorm can't agree (or you can't agree on a compromise with a few days of negotiation), then I would suggest that you go to Plan B.

Hi Peppermint,<BR> I hope you're feeling better. The reason I suggested Plan B is because you had not yet posted how Firestorm reacted to this new discovery.I do agree with K, that if he is willing to do no contact,it's worth another shot,especially with minor children still living at home.<P>I'll share with you something from my experience.H and I are now 1 week away from our 1 yr anniversary of d-day. I like to believe I have a changed H,but still have a huge fear of experiencing what you have just gone through, as it would be difficult to know if H is having contact with OW since she lives 400 miles away and all contact was accomplished through his work. His behavior is on the up and up as far as I can tell.<BR>Anyway,when I first discovered the A,H had said two weeks previously that he wanted to separate.He did cut off all contact with OW about a week after d-day,but we still separated a month later.For us the separation was a good thing,actually a great thing for BOTH of us. He was here a LOT. In fact he spent every weekend here(the kids refused to go with him on the weekends,which was a HUGE wake up call as to what a D would be like) and he often found himself drawn here after work and spending the night. I think the separation really woke him up to what was going on in himself,to other things besides the A. He was depressed also and did start counseling on his own. It helped him more than words can say.While we were apart he learned just how much he had taken me for granted. I've read that a person who has an affair isn't the one at home who isn't getting enough, they are the ones that aren't GIVING enough.That was the truth in our situation,although I had neglected him myself,but mostly in response to the long term neglect on his part(just caused me to withdraw).It was a Catch 22,the separation helped to get us out of that loop.<P>I on the other hand,found out how strong I really am.It did wonders for my thrashed self esteem to see that if he did decide he no longer wanted to be married (or ever decided to have another A or resume this one) that I was completely capable and emotionally able to handle all aspects of raising my kids by myself.The time alone at night after the kids were asleep was wonderful and I used it for lots of reading and self discovery.I was able to pamper myself too, things I couldn't do when he was here and wanting my attention.Overall it made me realize how much I had lost focus of ME,not only my marriage. We both grew a lot and it was a very positive experience for both of us, and the separation lasted just two short months,again with him here a lot of the time.<P>I am not saying that I think this is the answer for you,but just wanted to share that a separation CAN be a good thing.I think I would be more worried about a reoccurance had we not separated for that time. I just want you to know that I am praying for you and Firestorm and I am sorry that you are hurting.All the best and God bless you both.

K,<P>Thank you so very much for your quick and thorough response. Your post just makes so very much sense to me, and I hope that we will both be able to follow through with a plan. Bless you.<P>mthrrhbard,<P>I appreciate your care and prayers. I will be thinking about everything you said. Thanks.<P>Peppermint

Peppermint,<BR>We're over a year since my discovery of the resumption of the affair. They still work in the same complex, have the odd email or run into each other, but the last personal contact was probably 10/99.<P>It by no means has been an easy year. I think Guard's guilt was worse the last time because of the promises never to do it again.<P>I agree totally with K on counseling and Firestorm being accountable. Guard & I are still accountable with one another, and we've both shared happenings that indicate our honesty quotient is growing. To me it doesn't feel like jail, it feels safer to know that my intent is to tell Guard anything I do, and just not do anything I wouldn't want to tell him. Guard tells me he simply doesn't want to be the kind of person who cheats on & lies to his wife, he won't go back there.<P>The Enemy makes certain we have plenty of temptation or addictive feelings. It just has to be fought off. And since Guard & I are both WS & BS we get to bounce between anxiety & addiction. Ick. Stay strong Peppermint.<P>I guess for me in thinking about the resumption, I slide it all together. It isn't that the affair was over, they just weren't seeing each other for some months. The draw was always there and in weakness of emails & phone calls it progressed back to a PA. More of the same.<P>But I know as I dealt with it repeatedly and for longer that I became less willing to give, more guarded, suspicious. I don't know how anyone would avoid that. I actually knew my heart was growing cold & hard toward Guard.<P>That's completely changed now. The love & warm-heartedness can be reclaimed. Guard helped me by being so steadfast, once he realized it was me he wanted. If your marriage is to be saved at some point, the sooner, the better, you both have to work on the marriage. The majority of the responsibility lies on Firestorm's shoulders right now. You've done your part, your Plan A, your whole-hearted efforts for recovery. You can be his partner in this, but it is time for him to lead, if he is going to.<P>Trade-offs for the lead come very naturally after awhile.<P>I personally think separations do very little for the health of a marriage, but there is the benefit of decreased household tension. I know I'm still dealing with some of the resentment of having had to single parent for so many off & on months, even if he was here nearly daily, I was the "bottom line" parent.<BR> <BR>The one there in the middle of the night and the one who answered the questions.<P>There is still hope, Peppermint. K has given you really good advice--seek that counseling.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Peppermint,<P>I can't imagine going there again. It is the fear all of us have. I agree with all the K said. I particularly noticed you said he refused to send a no contact letter. My h had a very difficult time doing it, but we were in counselling with Jennifer and she kept on him all weekend. Later, he realized the wisdom of it and told me he would not contact her, that he would be too ashamed to after that letter!<P>I dug up our no contact letter for you, it was based on SAA. I truly believe we would not be here without this letter and the accountability he had to me. You know, it's like a fix when they feel down...<P>OW,<P>I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children I have come to realize that I must never see, or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that Cindy did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay Cindy for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness.<P>I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me.<P>I have made Cindy fully aware of the relationship, and she has read all the emails and chats we have had. There is virtually no detail of our relationship (yours and mine) that she is not aware of.<P>Please respect my desire to end our relationship, in its totality. Please know that any further attempts to establish contact will be monitored by Cindy who has access to all my email accounts, including passwords. I have committed to Cindy that I will not allow any phone contact to occur.<P>Signed, h (sent by email with cc to me)<P>You see how many times I'm mentioned??? It is no longer about them, and though he still wanted to be friends, let her down easy, etc, etc., he submitted to Jennifer's counsel. I read it and it is so simple, but he thought it was cruel. At the time, he was much more concerned about the pain he was causing her than any of my pain. I had to remind him many times it was the best thing he could do for the OW as well. He had to set her free to pursue her own life. She was 21 and single. He could not leave even a crack in the door.<P>I think you are right to give him another chance, but make sure it is done exactly by the book. Steve or Jennifer could be a great help in working through this.<P>And hon, I don't think you're back to square one even though this must be very painful.<P>Well, I've gone on and on...<P>------------------<BR>Cindy<P>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited September 08, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited September 08, 2000).]

Hey Peppermint:<P>I completely agree with schizzo in that the best way to handle this is:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>make sure it is done exactly by the book. Steve or Jennifer could be a great help in working through this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But of course, Firestorm has to agree to it too. And he's not going to want to be "mean" to the OW (probably---hooray if he's cool with it). If he doesn't agree, you need to analyze the reasons for his hesitancy, and do a "risk-factor" analysis to try to anticipate your chance of failure, and how that failure will affect your marriage.<P>My wife's affair didn't end by the book at all. The "first time" she ended the affair, it was under the duress of me getting ready to separate. She begged me to stay, and promised anything---including ending the affair, joint counseling, and individual counseling for herself. But the FIRST thing she did was to let me know that she needed to "get away" to mourn the loss of her love---and she went to the hotel that they had first had sex and stayed there for three days by herself.<P>Not a good sign, huh. I particularly enjoyed the conversation I had with Steve H. on that one... <P>The second (and last) time the affair ended was after she became pregnant, I had moved back home from Plan B, and was back to Plan A. She wasn't sending any letter. But that was OK---she and the OM were fighting so much, and he was threatening to get lawyers involved to take "his child"---well, you can bet I didn't fear any romance rekindling after THAT behavior.<P>So, you need to judge Firestorm's behavior objectively, and try to weigh the risk involved to your love for him. If he gets on board with the full program that we outlined, I really do think you guys will make it.<BR>

K,<P>Not sure if you are really agreeing with me, or saying the no contact letter is a "nice to have" ideal. In your case, your W was fighting with the OM anyway.<P>But what if the pull is still strong. And Peppermint has already been hurt again. You mentioned weighing her love vs. the risk. Meaning if she loves him enough, she would take greater risk? I don't think that way. <P>She wants it to work, we all do. I think she needs a clean break, and Firestorm should be willing to do whatever it takes at this point.

schizzo:<P>I think that we agree with what is the "best"---firestorm doing what it takes (no contact letter, counseling, etc.). There's really no doubting that.<P>The real question is what if he doesn't---what does Peppermint do? That's where this risk analysis comes into play. <P>For example:<P>1. If peppermint feels that should she try again and he "fail", that she'd jump into an immediate divorce.<P>2. Firestorm will only say that he'll write the no contact and do individual counseling, but he's not willing to be completely honest/open about communications, and he's not willing to do marriage counseling.<P>I would say that there's a big risk that Firestorm MIGHT fail in no contact, and there's a big risk that Peppermint WOULD divorce if this happened. With this scenario, I'd recommend that Peppermint probably go into a Plan B separation until Firestorm is ready to buy more fully into the plan (assuming that they had exhaustively negotiated to an impasse).<P>You see what I mean (and this is only one permutation of hundreds). My mind works exactly like this, and I weigh the "risks" involved with the harm (or the gain), and try to make the best decision. <P>

schizzo:<P>As an aside, what country are you in today???<P>

K, Lor, and Schizzo,<P>Thanks so very much for helping me through this. I wanted to give an update on the day's events.<P>Firestorm read K's first response before I did. He called me from work and told me to read it. When he came home from work, he had the no contact letter written. It was really very good, very similar to the one schizzo shared. He asked me to go with him to the post office to mail it, and also asked me to give a copy of it to the other woman's husband because he knows about the affair.<P>He offered me his cell phone and email passwords, and told me that he is using his voice mail to screen all phone calls. If she leaves a message he will immediately call to let me know, and he will forward any email that she sends. All his idea.<P>He has talked to a counselor and tentatively scheduled a time to meet to assess his depression. He told me he will schedule an appointment with one of the Harleys as soon as possible. Again, all of this is his idea.<P>He agreed to be totally honest, and talked to me nonstop for several hours about the actual scope of the affair (bad, but not as bad as I imagined).<P>All this seems very promising, but naturally I am a bit cynical at this point. I am trying my best and praying for guidance.<P>Lor, your comments are extremely helpful. I have come to accept that my husband had an affair for 16 months with a very trashy woman that had some sexual aspect, some emotional aspect, but was mostly a mid-life crisis caused by depression. It was conducted mainly on line and on the phone. While there was a "pause" of several months, the affair was never really over until now.<P>It was as K described his wife's affair. Firestorm said and did anything he could to keep me when I first found out. He did not want to lose me, but he didn't really break off the affair. This time I believe he has. Time will tell.<P>Thank you all so very much. You are truly wonderful cyberfriends.<P>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited September 10, 2000).]

I'm bringing this back up and hoping for more responses.<P>Peppermint

Pepperment,<P>Please read my post: Buffy? anyone...I have a crisis.<P>I'm so amazed at the agreement you and your H have come to and I'm very happy for you both. I thought H and I were pretty much on the road to recovery until this...<P>I don't think I have the energy to continue any longer... I am just plain tuckered out! Mentally and physically.<P>I could sure use some major encouragement from some of your good buddies that posted to you. I am afraid I'm dealing with one sick individual here and I need to just throw in the towel and move on. <P>Hard to do now, I'm 51 years old and still have an 11 year old at home to care for and support through this crisis. My kids have seen enough and know enough!!! Not only do I need peace, but they do too and we all deserve it so much. I am so sorry that I can't make this happen in a way that would be nice outcome for everyone. I'm really tired and so depressed. <P>Cathy <P>

Peppermint,<BR>Sorry I have not posted more, this whole situation is everybody's worst fear.<P>After I read your initial post, I laid awake that night looking at H, scanning my brain for anything inconsistant or suspicious. I wondered I the same thing was happening to me and I was living without a clue.<P>I don't think so, but firestorm jack hammered the point home, you never really know what your spouse is capable of.<P>You do the best you can, and deal with the cards you are dealt.<P>And I think you are doing a WONDERFUL job at that.

Sorry, I didn't log on over the weekend.<P>Peppermint - it's ok to need him to earn your trust at this point. That is not cynical, it is a very real reaction to what he did.<P>I think it is a very good sign that he is doing all this on his own. If you could both work with Steve or Jennifer, it would provide some external accountability. I never really got to talk to Jennifer very much during our counselling since she spent much of the time convincing him to meet my needs.<P>Only this last week, he told me he was doing it because he was told that's what he had to do to save the marriage. He had no real desire to meet my needs.<P>So, in one sense, our recovery is now really beginning. He now wants to take responsibility for meeting my needs! And, yet, the efforts he did make still got us moving in the right direction. Oh, and BTW, HE said it was because of his emotional immaturity. I didn't say it!<P>Be vigilant, but I don't think you are back to square one. If I were you, I would GENTLY push for complete openness. Ask him what he is thinking when he "zones out". My h and I always tell each other.<P>If you can, get away together for at least a week. We did that and talked out everything, cried, talked some more...<P>K, I'm home in hot South Fl. right now, but am leaving for Calif. in the am. Gotta pack again. We just came back from Dublin and London. Dublin was all work for him, and we sort of spoiled our time in London. He was being emotinally distant again.<P>I can't stand it! Are guys just that way? I want him to be more consistent. If he's angry that I wasn't all packed, why can't he just say so right away instead of treating me to two days of "distance"? Major conflict avoider...