I feel so empty today. It is getting harder and harder to feel confident about saving my marriage. I don’t feel I have enough strength to go on with this. It’s been seven months since D-day and 2 months since PA’s stopped, but EA still continues up to now. My W and OM still privately talked to each other over the cell phone. They sometimes wrote each other a love letter. Am I in recovery? No, I don’t think so despite my W is still at home with me. That should be a good thing, right? No, because the true is she is constantly LBing me. She said I’m an underdog since I’m the one who still loves her and wants her back. So I have to do whatever she asks me to do whether I like it or not. She said I’m not in a position to demand or ask for anything. Everything is her call, not me. How can I go on like this?<P>Financially, I provide 70% of the total income. I cooked and cleaned for the past 10 years, except the past 10 months when my W switched her work hour and came home earlier (That was when the affair started). I helped around the house and took care of the kids as much as she did. I shopped for groceries and stuff for my kids. Anything has to do with yard work is 100% me. My W wouldn’t even want to be outside if it too hot or too cold. Winter is too cold for her to help me clean up the snow. Summer is too hot for her to help me work on the yard. Fall is too windy for her to help me clean up the leave. Ah!! Spring is the only time she will be outside planting her flowers with my help carrying that topsoil.<P>I guess she has been spoiled from the past 14 years of marriage. I let her have everything the way she wanted except from the past 2 years I talked back and sometimes not agreed to her ideas. I think that was when we were drifting a part. When I asked about us she kept telling me she did not want to talk about it and got very angry. And then she would say, “give me time”. When I asked her about giving her time for what. She would say for her to heal but not for her to come back to me to work on our marriage. Then why am I trying to save my marriage? If she would not commit to it, it is impossible for me to work on it alone. It takes two to make the marriage work. Am I wrong? I’m sorry I need to vent.<P>Thank you all,<BR>OffOnOnOff<BR>

Any advice? Anybody? Please!!!

OffOnOnOff, <P>Sorry that I can not offer too much here but this sounds very close to what I have just started to go through the last 2 weeks. I do everything around the house and all the shopping etc... I completely spoil her. <BR>Just 2 weeks ago she told me that she was having troubled feelings about something that I did prior to us even meeting...<BR>Now she is, or so it seems, to be on both sides of the fence. Not really wanting to leave but not necessarily wanting to stay in the marriage.<BR>Even though my mess is not due to another relationship she has started, I wonder about that too. I too wonder why I should stay, but for me it is way too early just to call it quits (after 2 weeks).<BR>For you I would wonder also. If your W doesn't want to work on the marriage, then why go on trying after all this time. Yes it does take 2, and if 1 doesn't want to try, then why? And this is exactly what I've asked myself the last few days..... Like I stated I do not know if this will be much help, but I hope there was a little something here (I'm still too novice on these issues)....<P>Good Luck!!

Thank you haunting_past for your reply. It mean a lot to me. <P>I’m sorry to hear about your issue also. Yes, it is too early for you to call it quits. If you can, ask her what is bothering her? Keep plan Aing her as much as you can. I know it is hard not knowing why she’s troubled feeling about something in the past.<P>Good luck to you too.<P>Again thank you,<P>OffOnOnOff<BR>

Respect comes from not allowing yourself to be treated like a doormat. Your wife is using your fear of divorce as a means to control you and allow her to do whatever she wants. The only way this is going to stop is if you take a stand. Nobody respects weakness.

Maybe it is time to think about going to Plan B...If you haven't already, read up on it and consider.<P>I'm sorry you are in such a bad situation right now...<P>Kathi

Here is a woman's point of view. You say there is no PA anymore but there is an EA. For a woman, an EA is a strong bond. We're wired for emotional relationships as you know. Let her know in no uncertain terms that it is still an affair and you will not accept any form of contact with this man. Are you doing plan A? If your are, it is not about being a doormat and nobody can respect a doormat. Have you considered Plan B? If you haven't maybe you should. Yes, it is possible that she will leave but it is also possible that she will realize how cruel and unfair she has been. If you haven't read the Harley books, I strongly suggest that you do. Espeically "Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs/Her needs". SAA covers Plan A and Plan B very clearly. I know you are afraid to lose your spouse. I have felt that desperate also. I refused to live with lies and deciet no matter what the consequence was. I was afraid but willing to take the chance for my marriage. Don't be walked all over like that. You don't deserve it and it's not good for your psychological well being either. <BR>Be storng and do what you knwo is right even if it is painful. In the end YOU will respect yourself for it.

OffOnOnOff,<P>From reading your posts your fears of losing your W are unfounded. Why? Because you have already lost her. That is why you went to Plan A and have been busting you b--t. If you read the Harley material, it states that Plan B is the next thing to do if your spouse will not give up the affair.<P>She is using you and abusing your good will, it is time to look into Plan B. It is tough to do because it calls for no contact. I don't recall if you have children if you don't then you don't warn her. You make up a good Plan B letter: there are examples on this site and in the book you have been recommended, you simply give it to her and leave.<P>There is to be no contact until the affair is over, financial support should be minimal and only what legally required. Please read the description carefully and the ask NSR for more details. This approach is to preserve your love for your W, from the tone of your posting, you are losing it fast with her LB's and attitude. <P>Time for a change of a game plan OffOnOnOff. You really haven't anything to lose. Your W is gone now, the only question is she coming back.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

OffOnOnOff,<P>If you've continued with a good Plan A...<BR>...it may just be the time for Plan B...<P>Even if it isn't... draft up that Plan B letter...<BR>We'll help... <P>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> for good sample letters.<P>It's always a good idea to seek out MB counseling too...<BR>...I beat <B>K</B> to it this time... <P> <P>Jim

<BR>Thank you max for your encouragement. I agree with you 100% that nobody respects weakness. But I thought that by being patient and giving her time to think would make her to realize that what she did was wrong and drifting her family a part. The option of divorce has entered my mind so many times from the past 3 months. I even contacted an attorney at one time to see what my options were. The thing is that I wanted to have custody of my kids. My W was so afraid of losing them that she threatened to take them away and I would never see them and her again in this world. I would do everything to protect them from harm whether it is physical or emotional. I love them dearly.<P><BR>Thank you Kathi for your reply.<BR>I’m thinking about plan B for couple months now, but how do I do plan B if she is still there with me in the same house. She refused to move out, period. If I leave it would be an abandonment of my kids. They need me there, especially in the morning before school since my W goes to work at 4:00 in the morning.<P><BR>Thank you cleopatra for your encouragement.<BR>I did tell her that any contact with him whether it is via a cell phone or letter would still consider being an affair. She replied that her affair was over, but she still wanted to keep talking to him as a friend and she did not see anything wrong with that. It was his cell phone giving to her so that they can talk in private. I don’t think his wife knew anything about the cell phone. She did know about the affair, left him, but returned a week later. I believe he lied to her that the affair was over. I don’t know for sure. I have never contacted her. My W told me that there was no more PA. Based on what I learned it was true for the past two months.<P>Yes, I have considered plan B for couple months now. But how do you plan B when you are still together in the same house? She refused to leave the house at all cost.<P>Yes, I have read all kind of books including SAA and other Harley’s books. The only things I worry about are my kids. I don’t want to see them growing up without a mother or a father as a family. What my W’s asked me to do was to stay until the kids grow up (in 8 years) then she would divorce me and be with him. I did tell her that unless she ended her affair, I wanted her to leave the house. That was the reason she stopped her PA two months ago.<P><BR>Thank you just learning for your support.<BR>I though about plan B, but we are still in the same house. Yes, I have two children (12 & 10). If I leave, it would be an abandonment of my kids and I don’t want to do that yet. I was thinking about giving her a letter to ask her exactly what she wants to do with her decision. I would tell her that I don’t want to play her game of “give me time” any more. I’m tired of hearing it over and over again.<P>OffOnOnOff<BR>

It is definitely time to have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P><B>No doubt about it</B>!!!<P>As far as my own personal opinion...<BR>...you could do the best Plan B...<BR>...by first preparing your children for it!<P>I don't know your relationship with your kids...<BR>...but you've got to bring them into this...<BR>...many have flamed me on this and will again.<P>If your marriage has children in it...<BR>...you can't avoid building "honesty" into your relationship with them too!<P>...I would slowly prepare them for a "new" relationship between me and my W....<BR>...and how it is to save the love I have for their mom.<P>Not an easy task...<BR>...but one that is important in the children's understanding of love/committment and marriage.<P>The alternative is to expose your children to an immediate divorce...<P>Then... if she doesn't break off the relationship with the OM...<BR>...plan out a "limited contact" Plan B...<BR>...and meet as few <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> as possible... on your terms...<P>Yes... this could push her out the house...<BR>(and mommy can leave if she doesn't want to work on the marriage... she is allowed to... and this is what you need to prepare the children with...)<BR>Does this make mommy the "bad guy"?... yep...<BR>...but for how long can she present to the children... that what she is doing (to you and the marriage) is OK?<P>Yes...it could have the desirable effect to bring reality into her world.<P>When to start this is only after you and the kids are prepared.<P>Is this "tough love"... yep...<BR>...but it is required at times.<P> <P>Jim

offon-<P>I understand your point about the children. I have three (10,6,4). My ten year old new something was wrong between my H and I. Kids that age are smart and pick up on things between parents whether they hear you talking or not. Once we started recovery, my 10 year old made comments about us being a "happy family" or me and his dad being affectionate(something he rarely ever saw). They do notice more than you think. If she won't leave maybe you and the children could go someplace. I am very sorry that you even have to consider things like this. Maybe you should talk to a lawyer about your options as far as a seperation is concerned. He may be able to help you with that "abandonment" issue.

Thank you Jim,<BR>I’ve somewhat followed a good plan A, but not an excellent plan A. I did ask her about returning the cell to him (I guess it was a LB). She got very angry and said that she’s already given up a PA and talking to him on a cell phone was not an affair, so it doesn’t matter whether I like it or not, she would not feel guilty about it. It is just a friendship for now.<P>Yes, I’m thinking about a telephone session with Dr. Harley would be a good idea for me now.<P>Jim, I agree with you about preparing my children for it. My 12 years old knew about it, but my 10 years old did not understand what was exactly going on. The thing is Plan B may never work for me. If I leave the house or separate from her whether I take the kids with me or not, the affair would be out in the open. That will make it very hard for us to get back with each other, especially in our culture. There will be a tone of pressure from my side of family not to accept her back. I know it is my life. It should be my decision. If my W knows that my family knew, that will be the end of it, period. Therefore, plan B is “divorce” to me.<BR>

cleopatra, my 12 years old knew about her mom seeing OM. The thing she did not understand was why. Both of my children knew something was wrong between us. I feel that they are too young to understand this. I wonder what the truth would do to them and their ideas. So far I tried to keep it at the minimum. But sometimes I felt that by pretending everything was OK was to deceive them. Have that feeling ever occurred to you?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Therefore, plan B is “divorce” to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...<P>...is it better on her terms... ...the civil divorce?<P>...or your terms... Plan B... well planned out... with your kids in mind!<P>Another quote to think about...<P>"The truth will set you free"...<P>...draft that Plan B letter...<BR>...plan out the details...<P>...<B>always</B> be truthful to the kids...<P>...<B>always</B> look for the age appropriate way to be honest to the kids...<P>...Your kids <B>are</B> old enough to handle facts...<BR>...you have to get them emotionally prepared for understanding their own emotions!<P>...I've said it before...<BR>......and others question me on it but....<BR>......teach the kids to separate the sin from the sinner.<BR>......maybe you'll have to teach yourself first.<P>First rule...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR>...<BR>and if you missed it...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR><B>Don't leave the home/kids</B>...<BR>...<P>If your W wants to leave...<BR>...(and you see this as inevitable...)<BR>Get your children ready for it now!!!<P>My kids weren't ready for it...<BR>...and still don't like that my W has gone...<BR>...and that was over a year ago.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That will make it very hard for us to get back with each other, especially in our culture<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...what about a full blown divorce?... How hard will that make it?...<P>Praying for you...<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited September 09, 2000).]

Yes, seems like if you could get her out of the house, your set up is perfect for plan B. She will miss the financial and child raiseing and household support you give her and may realize that OM can not give her the same. What is her reasoning for not moving out? Could you help her get set up in an apartment? Sounds crazy, I know, but you can't go on like this either.<BR>Lora

Thank you Jim, I know I can count on you for your support. You are the best.<P>I will draft somewhat Plan B letter soon and plan out what I want to do with the kids. <P>If it were a full blown divorce, there will never be a return, period. That is why I don't want to consider that option yet. But for me to do plan B is to leave the house and take the kids with me. Unless, there is an alternative. Because she would not leave the house.<P>I'm working on preparing my kids for it now. Is there any book written about it?<P>Thank you again for your prayers and support. <BR>

Thank you Lora for your reply,<BR>Here are the reasons for her of not moving out:<P>She said that the rent is too expensive for the area that we are in because she wants to be near the kids and her work place. She is 2 minutes from her work place.<BR>She would rather save the rent money for the kid’s education.<BR>She is afraid he will ask her to move in with her.<BR>If she change her address, all her co-workers would know what is going on. (She works for the post office.)<BR>Family members from both sides would know about it, especially my family. Her parent knew about it (I told them, majors LB on my part).<BR>She did not want to break his family that was what she claimed. Because they kids are still too young.<BR>She wants our kids to grow up with both parents in the house.<BR>I also think she was afraid of losing me (just my hunch). She is also afraid of losing the kids (she claimed that they are her #1 priority). My W is hard headed and wants to dominate everything. She wants to be the last one to say something. All her siblings feel the same way and had enough of her behavior.<BR>And I believe she is confused, but is reluctant to get help.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by OffOnOnOff (edited September 09, 2000).]

offon,<P>I never wanted tmy chikldren to know what was truly going on. I just told him that sometimes grownups have a hard time but that they try to work things out. That could be wrong but I felt my ten year old is not old enough to handle grown up garbage that even I had a hard time handling. He is supposed to feel safe and I would do my best to protect that. If it had come to a seperation then the father and I would have had to discuss that with him ahead of time. <BR>I too come from a culture where divorce is not very common. I was really afraid of all the surrounding issues that would ocme with it. Lets face it though, she did it and not you. Don't worry at this point about what people are going to think of her. She should have thought of that way before she ever had the A. Seems like she has a warped set of values. NSR alwyas has good advice. Tell her no contact or else she moves out. That you won't have your children raised in that kind of environment. It sounds like you are going to have to be really firm with her to get anywhere.

I believe that your wife needs to understand that unless she stops all contact with the OM and works on the marriage divorce will be initiated. The only way she is going to believe you is if she sees that you have indeed filed. The other thing I would do is contact this OM and tell him in no uncertain terms that you will inform not only his wife but his employer about his affair with your wife. Will this make her angry. Probably. Will this action on your part make her angry enough to go through with a divorce. It might but the chances are that it will shake her up and make her realize that the price of a divorce may be too high. The OM will probably back off and this will show her that he values his skin more than her. Remember she has as much to loose as you do from a divorce. As for trying Plan B. In my opinion, the only way it can work is if your wife moves out of the house and has to take care of her finsncial needs without your help. Plan B is suppose to make her miss you and realize that her marriage is more important than the affair. The problem I see with this approach is that your spouse will probably use this opportunity to focus her attention more on her affair partner especially if she does not have to worry about interference from you resulting in a stronger emotional bond with the OM. I have followed the use of this plan by spouses on this website and have not seen much success with it. In my experience people change when there is a crisis (such as divorce or ill health). Again I would recommend that you read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr.James Dobson. Best wishes...max