I have to admit you make me angry for two reasons:<P>1. Peppermint has been a devoted, loving and forgiving wife. She did not deserve what she got the first time and she does not deserve what she is facing now. Any "mistake" you point out she made during in recovery pales by the lies and betrayal that are on your own plate.<P>2. I don't know you and it isn't my personal business what you do, but just like our President, the day he wagged his finger and lied to the country is the day he lied to me. I reread your first posts from the beginning at 12/99 and then the recent posts in GQII. Looking back at those August posts, you can detect that you may be trying to get things straight in your own head, but the smoking gun is that you were painting yourself as the guy with the wonderful wife in recovery, when that was hardly the case.<P>Since you were "outed" instead of confessing or ending it on your own, it gives me the uneasy feeling you were using us as your "cover". Only you know that.<P>Whatever date Peppermint was handed the truth, you were a betrayer, a liar and a coward.<P>But people change and grow and learn. I sincerely hope you are what you say, a deeply remorseful H, willing to do whatever it takes to have a genuine recovery.<P>The following is not meant to be offensive, but I copied a few of your origional posts in late 12/99 and 1/2000.<P>Firestorm, you sounded sincere. You sounded like you "got it". Please tell us what makes it "real" this time. <P>From 12/99<BR>"My W and I have been reading MB for almost 2 months now and have been working on recovery during that time. My affair was with a friend that I have known for almost 14 years. During this time there was never anything close between us other than friendship. In June of this past year she began to talk to me about problems that she and her husband were having. I tried to advise her and help anyway that I could if nothing more than to be a good listener. However, during early August the relationship turned physical. The moment lasted no more than couple of minutes and was never any more than that. <BR>That couple of minutes turned out to be the worst mistake that I have ever made in my life. I confessed the incident to my W in September and we began the very painful road to recovery. I do not yet know why I allowed this relationship to go where it did. I have since broken all contact possible with the OW and have even began to develop feelings of hate for her. My W was and is everything in the world to me and I feel so bad that I have done such a horrible thing to her and to our relationship. If there is anyone out there that does not believe that betrayers do suffer the pain of an affair, think again. I have lost my wife's trust in me, and I lost a value that I held for 22 years. I was proud of the fact that I had always remained true to her. I kick myself everyday for the mess that I have created with this affair. It has torn my heart apart to see the pain that I have caused her. <BR>I know we can rebuild our marriage to be better than it ever was. I am still making mistakes during the rebuilding process, but we can overcome these. This is the hardest thing that I have ever faced in my life and I read this site everyday just to get a little encouragment from all of you that post here. I will post in the future on our progress and hope that I can help someone else someday"<P>"I know what a rollercoaster ride your H is on. Betrayers also suffer as a result of their infidility. My W and I are four months into recovery and we are doing ok. But, last weekend I just broke down and cried for about 30 minutes before we went to bed. I guess it all just hit me at one time, the guilt, the feelings that things may never be the same, the pain that I know I have caused my W. Some days are better than others for both of us. But one thing made a difference. My W just held me close and told me that she has forgiven me. <BR>I thanked God that night for the wounderful woman to whom I am married. The biggest problem that I have to overcome is the feeling that I do not deserve her. Maybe someday I can regain her trust and give her a good reason to want to be my Wife. My heart goes out to you and your H. Give him lots of love and he will soon return it to you. Find a way to forgive him. It is the only way to move on."<BR>1/14/2000<P>"I will add one other thing here. Always remember, if he were to leave his wife for you then you would be married to a betrayer. If he did it to her, he will probably do it to you. Then the shoe would be on the other foot. This is the way I thought about my OW along with the fact that I realized that she is a liar. I learned a lot about her after I opened my eyes." <P>So firestorm, are your eyes really open? I pray they are.<P>Peppermint wants us to encourage you and believe in you. I will honor her request. <P>Make it real. Make it true. Make it last!<BR>

FHL<P>I do not have much time to write a full reply but I will tonight. My eyes have been opened to exactly what I am and what the Ow is. I know that I let a lot of people on this board down when I resumed my A with OW. But, more importantly, I let my W down. I see more clearly now the devastation that I have caused my W, children, and family. <P>I could have very easily turned off this computer and never visited this site again. But, that would not be the right thing to do. I need people like you and the others here to help open my eyes further and see my true self. My W needs the man she married and not the trash she has been living with for the past year. Out of all of this I hope to make myself better and get out of this dark hole that I was in.<P>Many times in my career as a firefighter I have stared death in the face and never flinched. To look into peppermint's eyes and see the pain that I have caused is worse than any situation I have ever faced. Last year I didn't do what was necessary to mend myself nor our marriage. I have a wonderful wife as you all know. Right now I am very lucky to still be here with her. Last year I didn't take advantage of the people here as I should have. I am learning to be better and I will not leave this site until we have recovered from this mess that I have made. Thanks for writing your post to me and don't let it stop there, please. I will be here everyday when I can. Peppermint and I are on our way to our D's ballgame so I have to go now. I will be back later.<P>fs

firestorm:<P>I'd just like to see you present your plan for kicking this, with all the details...<P>I'm not angry, but being through this "false start" once, I do have some pointed advice... <P>

firestorm:<P>I have a question for you. How is peppermint handling this and treating you?<P>I am curious because our situation is really close to yours. My husband has said the same things as you are now. But of course it is hard for me to be sure he is true this time. I worry too much, and feel that I have to let him led the way and step up and be my equal, because last time I led the way and he really wasn’t there for us and our marriage. <P>I don’t feel like I am pushing him, but I am afraid of telling him of how I am feeling. Last time I kept my pain inside. Being truly open is new for me and him as well. <P>His actions really tell me a lot. In fact I sometimes don’t trust myself in believing this time is for real.<P>Thank you,<BR>Judy<BR>

Firestorm,<P>You did not "let me down", but you did post things that were obviously not the complete truth. And in August you gave surprisingly good advise for someone in your position.<P>Words really mean little once they are proven to be incongruent with your actions.<P>Not that I don't want to hear what you have to say, I do.<P>You talked a good line here for over a year. I am sure many times, maybe most, you were sincere at least at the time you were posting.<P>So were was the incongruency. Was it in your heart or where you actions different than what one would think after reading your words?<P>I think if you are sincere in your zest for recovery, you need to figure out where and when you were dishonest. Were you dinhonest to yourself or did you realize your words and actions or inner thoughts were not lining up?<P>Keeping yourself in line and giving Peppermint every clue to knowing how to tell if things are lining up will be key to to your recovery.<P>Honest, self-examination and true openness and honesty. Thanks for responding. I know how truly difficult this must be.<P>As hard as it is to be betrayed, I think it would be harder to be a remorseful betrayer.<P>

bighope<P>Peppermint is doing very well with our situation under the circumstances that I have presented her. We have been able to hold meaningful conversations concerning the affair and I feel they have gotten everything out in the open once and for all. The OW is really LBing right now and that is good. What a B----! Sorry for that one but I had to. I am trying to remember any details that may affect our relationship in the future. OW has told so many different versions to her H that I don't think she knows where the truth is anymore. But she is not important.<P>K<P>We are both working on a plan so we can get this right this time. I have taken my e-mail account at work and put everything on auto forward to peppermint. This is where the OW used to e-mail me. If she tried to make contact, peppermint will know. When I am at work, I call or e-mail peppermint every hour if I am able to. E-mail shows the time the message was sent and we have caller ID so if she doesn't answer, it shows my number at work and the time. I do not go anywhere with out my D or peppermint. This is not a price to pay since I love spending time with both of them.<P>I have an appointment with the employee assistance counsler tomorrow morning. I want to make sure nothing like this happens again. While I was involved with OW over the month and a half, my performance at work suffered. Everyone saw it. Many people asked me what was wrong and if there was anything they could do to help. I couldn't talk to anyone there so I "ATE" this one by myself.<P>I have requested an appointment for peppermint and myself with Steve. I have to make the phone call tomorrow to confirm a time. I actually look forward to talking to him. I love spending time with peppermint, unfortunatly that was one of the things that I failed at the first time. We are planning on taking a vacation together in the very near future. We have even talked about taking my S and D with us. If you have read my post you saw that I have sent a letter of no contact. I did this on my own because I do not want any contact anymore. We make time each day to talk about the affair and do so in a good way. I don't mind talking about it anymore because I don't have anything to hide.<P>For some reason I feel different now and it is hard to explain. Several people at work have told my over the past month that they are glad to have the old "D" back. Everything over the past year and a half since my Mother passed seems like a bad dream. I looked back today and none of it seems real. Peppermint has always said she feels like it is a bad dream and she wants to wake up from it and find out everything is ok. I know we can make it now.<P>K, and all others, I will try to make the events of my days ahead open to all here at MB. I will post everyday what I have done and learned and peppermint will be here with me. Since I failed not only peppermint but everyone here I feel like I need to make this site a part of my life through recovery. If I stumble I hope someone will pick me up and point me in the right direction.<P>FHL, K, Bighope....THANKS...fs

Good, I like the looks of your plan.<P>I don't think there's a need for you to chronicle your life on this board---unless it's something that you and Peppermint have jointly agreed to do (love that POJA).<P>But the plan looks solid. Good luck with the execution.