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Joined: Jun 2000
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Betrayed husbands in Plan A...some questions...[p]<P>Summary: I will try and make this brief but I need some answers from you if you can assist me.[l]<BR>I am the WS in my marriage and have been trying to restore my marriage. D-Day was in beginning of June ( huge horror for us both) and around July 25th I made the decision that I will do a 180 if necessary to save my marriage if it is meant to be. For me things are going very well and the rollar coaster for my husband is in full gear and I am dealing with that almost 99% in Plan A. I love bust when he is extremely nasty. The affair ended last year and I grappled with immense guilt and self loathing before I told my husband.[p]<P>My questions:[p]<P>1) How long did you talk and think about how you wished the past could have been as good as the recovery?[p]<P>2)If you asked your wayward wife to change and she did a 180 did you tell her that the change was good or too fast?Did the good times of now remind you how bad the past was and how mistreated you were during her affair if you had an idea of it but were not sure?[p]<P>3)How did you find out about Plan A? Did your wife point you to this site? Did you consider this type of therapy on your own or by her advice?[p]<P>4) How long did it take before you realized that you were not meeting her needs properly?<BR>Or do you still find yourself a saint?[p]<P>5) Does your wife keep a journal for you daily about her feelings and things she has done during day?[p]<P>6) Have you stopped love busting? How often do you remind her of her flaws and mistakes?<BR>How long until you realized she sincerely loves you and the OM was but a fantasy?[p]<P>Right after when anger was at its height I really thought we were going to get separated. Now things are calm (we have 2 small kids) and he reminds me that there is a very small chance that he can get passed this. I am continuing to Plan A at my fullest and am enjoying it very much.[p]<BR>

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LST,<P>I'll answer your questions in the order you asked:<P>1. Not in recovery (yet!) As far as I know the A is still ongoing in some aspect.<P>2. The months of mistreatment is what currenty has me re-evaluating my approach and thinking about a shift to Plan B...BTW I know how mistreated I've been and it is only due to ongoing sessions with Steve that I've hung in as long as I have.<P>3. I found this site 12 months ago and after reading everything myself and asking W to read certain articles (she didn't) that I asked her to join me in counseling<P>4. 2 sesssions with Steve and a review of the Needs questionnaire and LB questionnaire with my W.<P>5. No<P>6. It took a LONG time (6-8) months for me to completely stop and simply learn to bite my tongue and say nothing. A large part of my LBing behavior was being extremely opinionated and argumentative(that's what lawyers do!)...I've learned to keep certain opinions to my self. W's fear of being reminded of her mistakes, poor judgment etc,.etc. is a MAJOR obstacle to her coming home<P>At this point still waiting for REALITY to squash fantasy.<P>Good luck and if there is anything I can help with let me know! <P>

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LST:<P>How about a response from a betrayed wife? Some of my experiences seem similar to what your are facing with your H. For us, PA D-day was 9 January 2000, and I have subsequently discovered internet and phone affairs (I think I am going to have to start referring to it as the "Spouse Wars Trilogy..." <g>.)<P>First, though, a major difference: I am Plan A-ing my H, but he isn't Plan A-ing me. He seems to want our marriage to continue, but he isn't really leaping onto the Marriage Builders bandwagon.<P>I have pointed him to the site, but he read it with little interest. By and large, he is not interested in self-help books or sites, which I believe is causing problems.<P>Everything reminded me of OW. Things that have changed (the thought would flash, "She must have done that. I never knew he liked that.") things that stayed the same ("Is he bored? Did she do it better? Does he really like this or is he trying to keep the peace?").<P>Although I can logically assess that the other woman (PA) and other women (internet and phone affairs) were (are?) fantasies, there is a gnawing feeling that I was (am?) not good enough for him. My head can wrap itself around the concept, but my heart is hurting still, and his actions have not put it at ease.<P>It sounds as though you are making great strides to putting things right with your husband, and I congratulate you! Just be aware that this is hurting him more than anything else in his life and it is going to take a lot of time to get over this and be able to move on. <P>Good luck to you, and hang in there. Your husband can be the spouse you dream of. <P>All the best. --HBC

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Usually the wayward spouse (WS) is not willing to do all the work as needed. Some of the stuff they do, but feel "manipulated" and resentful.<P>Also, it is usually the betrayed spouse (BS) who does the Plan A. Plan A is before the recovery begins. Yes it continues into recovery, but it is not quite the same.<P>Let me answer your questions.<BR>1 Don't know where my wife is so I can't speak to recovery.<P>2 In Plan A, the betrayed does not ask the wayward spouse to change. They do what they can to not tick off the WS & understand changes they need to make in themselves.<P>3 I found this site/Plan A a few days after discovery. My wife is clueless about this stuff. She did talk with Steve Harley once, but it was for me, not us.<P>4 I realized I was not meeting some of her needs before dicovery. A saint? Not exactly, but she has had at least 3 affairs & guilt is most likely what prodded her into doing it again.<P>5 Hah! A journal? Not likely. She only calls a few times a month. Hasn't seen the girls in over a year. If she was to keep a journal, she'd probably kill herself.<P>6 I stopped love busting before I found this site and before I found out about the affair. I have done very little to get her ticked off since Dec 98. Found out about affair Christmas 98. She left Feb 99.<P>To remind her of her flaws & mistakes are lovebusting.<P>In Plan A (pre-recovery) it's a big no-no to do that. After recovery (when the wayward spouse WANTS to save the relationship, it is done, but in a way to insure both partiers understand what & why is needed.<P>6 I realized the om was a fantasy the day i found out about the affair. She hasn't realized he is a fantasy yet. She hasn't said she loves me since 17 Feb 99, so I doubt she "realizes" it.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

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I am the betrayed spouse and I find it very interesting that you, the WS is the one doing the plan A. I only wish that my W would do a strong plan A, I probably wouldn't have to come here so much to vent......but on to your questions:<P><B><BR>1) How long did you talk and think about how you wished the past could have been as good as the recovery?</B><P>We never talked about this, I talked about how she never responded to my efforts to make our marriage better. I look back on things now and can say that some of the efforts that I made to make things better were not the right things to do, but my W rarely tried anything. She even admits now that maybe she never really understood what it takes to have a relationship and that she never really ever gave our marriage a good chance and that it is too bad that something like this has to happen before she realized that. <BR><B><BR>2)If you asked your wayward wife to change and she did a 180 did you tell her that the change was good or too fast?Did the good times of now remind you how bad the past was and how mistreated you were during her affair if you had an idea of it but were not sure?</B><P>I haven't seen the 180 yet, maybe 150, but definitely not 180. The good times we have now don't necessarily remind me of how I was mistreated during her affair, rather they make me think of the many, many good times of the past and how much time was wasted over the years not having more of those times.<BR><B><BR>3)How did you find out about Plan A? Did your wife point you to this site? Did you consider this type of therapy on your own or by her advice?</B><P>I found this site on my own, which is how I found out about Plan A. My wife never comes to this site. I have sent her emails with information from this site, I have printed articles, threads, postings, everything to give to her and discuss. She will read it, discuss it and then forget it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] We went to therapy with someone who I wouldn't call a Harleyite(some word, hey), but she basically had some of the same concepts, but with different terminology, but it didn't last long or help much. It didn't last long because insurance only covered so many sessions, and it didn't help much because my wife initially started off lying through the first half of our sessions. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR><B><BR>4) How long did it take before you realized that you were not meeting her needs properly?<BR>Or do you still find yourself a saint?</B><P>I found out the night of discovery, but this just pissed me off more. I felt that instead of going out and telling someone else that she was unhappy, she could have come to me and told me, instead of telling me that she loved me.<BR><B><BR>5) Does your wife keep a journal for you daily about her feelings and things she has done during day?</B><P>My W doesn't tell me anything. It's like pulling teeth to get her to talk about her thoughts and feelings, she would rather talk about other superficial things, things that bring no discomfort.<BR><B><BR>6) Have you stopped love busting? How often do you remind her of her flaws and mistakes?<BR>How long until you realized she sincerely loves you and the OM was but a fantasy?</B><P>I have not totally stopped LBs, after all I am human and I still make mistakes. Flaws and mistakes come up only during our discussions, and not just hers, my flaws and mistakes as well, and they come up not as things to throw in each other's face, but more as to point out things that we need to work on. For me I point out the flaw of continuing to sit back and waiting for me to make her fall back "in-love", rather than becoming an active participant in her regaining these feelings. I'm still not convinced entirely that she viewed the affair as a fantasy, little things that she says that she doesn't think I notice(hell, she may not even notice them), give me doubts as to whether or not she truly views the situation as fantasy.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited September 14, 2000).]

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I can't help you so much on all your questions, because in my situation her fantasy is fairly new, and goodness knows how long this will go on for. Of course, I have the fear (like others I'm sure) that she's found someone that will make her happy forever, but I really doubt it. Her life is built around lies now.<P>1. Not in recovery yet.<BR>2. I'd be happy for a 180 and I don't think I'd say the change was too fast. I only wish for a 180.<BR>3. I found the site myself, and am glad I did. I needed to hear from people in similar situations.<BR>4. I realized I wasn't meeting her needs the day she told me that it was too late for our marriage. Week before, in her words, we were happily married.<BR>5. She doesn't believe in journals, counselling, etc.<BR>6. Even now, I try and not remind her of the bizarre behavior she exhibits. I try and not LB. The OM is still a fantasy, and it is hard for me to get past this all. I just hope he is a fantasy. Hope she loves me.<P>I respect you for telling your husband, and for Plan Aing. If he is still with you and you are trying, my opinion is that there might be more chance of him getting past it than what he says. Pure speculation though. But you have two kids and you are trying, and came clean. That is commendable to me. Have you been following the recovery plans on this site or available in books? Perhaps some books on forgiving would help if he'd read them. I'm not an expert (I hope I become one and my marriage can be saved!), but I think if you've gone this far and he is still there, you have hope.<P>Now I have a question for you. When you were in the fantasy, did you lie alot? Did you realize at all that it was a fantasy? How fast did the fantasy end when it started to end? Days, weeks. I'm wondering if it is gradual, or a sudden awakening?<P>Good luck and hang in there. You are doing the right thing. Try not to LB. Remember how difficult it is for him to accept it. But recovery help might be good for you both.

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LST:<P>I commend you on taking charge of the situation. Clearly, you are repentent for your mistake and you want the marriage to work. I think your questions, though insightful, may be focusing you on a path that is not exactly the best way to heal.<P>FYI, I discovered my wife's affair in March of 1999. She gave it up immediately, and we went for counseling. I found this site in April of 1999 and have posted on and off for the last year and a half. W and I are now in recovery, and have been getting along better than ever.<P>If you don't mind my advice, I'd like to address your questions.<P><B>1) How long did you talk and think about how you wished the past could have been as good as the recovery?</B><P>We didn't talk about this at all. I think it's counterproductive. The past is the past, no matter how much you want to change it. You can't go back and unring the bell. The best way to get into recovery is to accept the fact that neither of you can go back and do it over again. You CAN, however, go FORWARD and make a better life for yourselves by adopting the POJA, the Policy of Honesty, and by meeting each other's emotional needs instead of looking outside the marriage to fulfill them. Don't be conflict avoiders. Learn to listen ACTIVELY, and to figure out what each other's strongest emotional needs are.<P>[/b]2)If you asked your wayward wife to change and she did a 180 did you tell her that the change was good or too fast?Did the good times of now remind you how bad the past was and how mistreated you were during her affair if you had an idea of it but were not sure?[/b]<P>Two-part question needs a two-part answer:<P>(a) It's hard to answer this question because I don't know what you mean by a 180. If my wife had tried to act as if nothing had happened, and had been at my beck and call all the time after the affair, then, YES, I would have said that it was too fast and too strange of a turn of events. You can't act as if nothing happened, but you CAN learn to start meeting each other's needs.<P>As the betrayer, you will need to accept the fact that your H will want to talk about it some. He will want to know why, and he will probably want to know details. I don't know why, but many of us men want to know them. For me, I had to know everything because I would always be wondering whether or not we still had anything that was distinctly OURS, or whether she shared it all with him. It was painful to hear and painful for her to talk about, but I think it helped us get by.<P>(b) The good times invariably remind you of the bad. You are simultaneously glad that it's not as bad as it was and fearful that the good times might last. IMHO, thinking about this stuff ruins the good times. If the times are good, enjoy them, but know that you must remain vigilant and work to keep the lines of communication open lest you fall back into the bad times.<P><B>3)How did you find out about Plan A? Did your wife point you to this site? Did you consider this type of therapy on your own or by her advice?</B><P>I found Marriage Builders myself and downloaded all the information. It was the first stuff I saw that really spoke to me about why it was my W could betray me so thoughtlessly. I appreciated the fact that the Harleys wouldn't let me get away with trying to play the innocent victim, but that they also acknowledged that my W's decision was not MY fault, but HERS.<P>I encouraged W to post and read here, and I think it has done a WORLD of good for us.<P><B>4) How long did it take before you realized that you were not meeting her needs properly? Or do you still find yourself a saint?</B><P>None of us are saints. We got here because we didn't do our part to uphold the virtues of our marriages. Even the betrayed spouses must admit that if they had been as vigilant in their marriages as they should have been, they would have seen the unhappiness in their spouses before the situation got to the point of an affair.<P>In my case, it could have just as easily been me in the affair. W just got there first.<P><B>5) Does your wife keep a journal for you daily about her feelings and things she has done during day?</B><P>No journal for us. I don't think it would have helped. I simply asked W to end contact and let me know if she ever came into contact with him either through her effort or his. To the best of my knowledge, she has kept her end of that bargain.<P><B>6) Have you stopped love busting? How often do you remind her of her flaws and mistakes? How long until you realized she sincerely loves you and the OM was but a fantasy?</B><P>Nobody ever stops lovebusting completely. We're human. I try not to point out her flaws, but again, I'm human, and my frustrations sometimes get the best of me. Have patience with your H. He's in a tough spot now, and subconsciously, he may feel the need to "hurt" you so that you'll feel as bad as he does. If you treat him with kindness and compassion, but let him know that his words hurt, hopefully he'll come out of it.<P>Keep fighting, LST. This is not an easy situation. However, if you are committed to moving on, you'll do what it takes to get H back on the team, and you WILL survive. It just takes work, effort and patience . . . and a LOT of love.<P>You can do it!<BR><P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>


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