Bernzini,<BR>I dont know your whole story but from the little I have read, I say stay your current course. Your son is not real excited about it and maybe you need to look a bit deeper as to why you would even consider going back to live with him. <BR>You have children that need a mom, a real mom! Do it for you and your kids. <BR>If he wants to work on the marriage, he an come to you!!! <BR>GO GIRL!

I say go forge your new life. What sort of example would you be for your son sleeping apart while his violent father has it on with Miss Kitty (or whoever)?<P>As for mental illness and rising high in a profession, does anyone remember Nixon, has anyone read how his aides had to pull him off from his beating of his wife?<P>Maybe he can't help himself, but probably you can't help him either. You can help yourself and your children, suck in your gut, throw back your shoulders and do it.<P>I'm looking forward to positive posts from you.<P>Take care.

This is why I am waiting, at a safe distance, to see what's up.<P>I don't want to abandon him, but I could not take one more fight, not one more session of shrieking, of him talking as loud and fast as he can about all the things that I have done to him (?)<P>In the meantime, I will stay married to him<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited September 17, 2000).]

Dear Mary,<P>You <B>are</B> doing the right thing! I know how hard it can be when you are facing unknown factors in your life, but trust in God and He will be faithful to you. Don't forget one of God's promises (and this has been my credo lately!), ". . .with God all things are possible." MT 19:26.<P>Keep praying for your H. Pray for MK, too, the results may astound you. God asks us to pray for our enemies because when we pray for them we cannot hate them and hate can be a bitter poison in our lives. It can withhold from you all the real joy God has to offer you.<P>God IS working in your lives even though at times it may not seem like it. Look at all the things He has given you already -- a beautiful child, a place to live, a good job, a church family, friends. Remember -- His time is not our time. Have patience and faith and He will reward you greatly!<P>". . .we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts my the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." RO 5:3-5<P>You are doing great, Mary. <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers,<BR>KristyAnn<p>[This message has been edited by KristyAnn (edited September 16, 2000).]

Bernzini, I just wanted to add another book to y0ur "must read" list....I was reminded of it after reading about Nixon.<P>"Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man". The book discusses Nixon as an example of a passive aggressive man.<P>I enjoyed the book. I wish I had read it prior to H moving out. It describes how it is really fear of intimacy and dependency that underlies the passive aggressive behavior.<P>It also discusses how "we" gravitate towards passiv4e aggressive men. <P>Anyway, you may enjoy the book.

Thanx again, TT!!<P>By the way, how are you lately? You haven't said much these days.<P>I will definately take a look.<P>Passive-Agressive Man?!! What is this?<P>Fear of intimacy and dependancy--yeah, this describes my husband to a "T!"<P>My husband is a handsome man (physically, very) and socially, a little shy, but always gracious, well-spoken, and polite. <P><BR>Hey, guess what. . .<P>If you are going to lurk, you might as well try to listen to what people are saying and try to heal yourself instead of trying to gather up "lies" against me.<P>I have not said one thing that is not true.<P>ALso, I have done my best to try to foster a good relationship with you and your son. I have worked very hard at this, no matter what you say. So lay off me.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited September 17, 2000).]

Oh yes, it does fit the passive aggressive man's personality to a tee.<P>Quotes from the book. "While passive aggressive may seem a paradoxical term, the truth is that the PA man doesn't ride an emotinal see-saw (though he may put you on one); he's not passive one day and aggressive the next, depending on the circumstances. Rather the PA man is simultaneosly passive and aggressive. The paradox reigns because he renounces his aggression as it is happening.<P>What to look for.<P>Fear of dependency--he fights his dependency needs by trying to control you.<P>Fear of intimacy- he is guarded and nistrustful, reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He is out of touch with his feelings.<P>Fear of competition-feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. Few are good sports.<P>Obstructionism--<P>Fostering chaos<P>Feeling Victimized<P>Making excuses and lying<P>Procrastination<P>Ambiguity<P>Sulking--Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, he retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts, withdraws.<P>This is just some of the info....and you can see more of the aggression come out in them, particulary because they need to blame something "external" (hence, us)<P>And yes, we do tend to gravitate to these men....either in the victim, manager, or rescuer role.<P>Much of the suggestions in the book, describe setting your own boundaries with these men. <P>I thought it was insightful, but since my H is not living here, is unwilling to give up working with the pregnant OW, and unable to deal with any of the issues here except by rationalizing and or compartmentalizing them, I don't see how I can use the material, othe than in setting boundaries for me and the kids, so that we don't keep getting trampled on.<P>As for me....I am OK. Like I said, my H has simply compartmentalized the "issues" it seems. No more talking about anythign. I have no clue what is going on...<P><BR>However, he sees the kids almost every evening. His relationship with them is better. I don't feel like they have to walk on eggshells anymore around him. I am just polite.... I worry, that as a PA man, he feels like all he has to do is show up...and the problems will be taken care of for him.<P>I can't change that. But for right now, I am staying put. I'd like to see how he will get himself out of this without having to actually "do" anything. I do not believe he is "seeing" what is happening. But only time will tell.<P>The other night he commented that since I had been getting a babysitter to stay here on the evening that they all have after-school activities so the ones left could get their homework done...that he would like to come that night to help me.<P>I think that is the first recognition of anyone other than himself in a long time.<P>He is clearly having a MLC...along with the affair. Unhappy with this place at the pinnicle and "using" ow to feel good at work. He is still focused on his needs only....exercise and food stuff. <P>He wants to work with OP...because she is "good at what she does"...and OP will not stand for me in the picture...so I guess only time will tell. She has her own agenda of course. <P>I, like you, am trying to focus on me and the kids. I get fatigued, particularly this week as I have a very bad cold, with doing this!!!!!!<P>I think if you told my H just a year ago today that this is where he'd be this year, he would have told you you were crazy.....but then,,,,,he is not that same man!!!! where did he go???????

Very interesting perspectives, I have to admit. Bern...your post may do more for us lurkers than you know. If you can stick it out, I can. No, this is not a competition! <BR>I just was a little down this morning thinking about the message I left my W at her store before I took off. (An annual meeting to attend and I was biking to it so I couldn't wait.) Sometimes I seem to stumble into needed info when I don't go looking. But the discussion on personality has triggered a question about my W's .<BR>I guess I'll post it seperate.<BR>Take care.<BR>rrunrr<BR><P>------------------<BR>Almost anything can be undone or forgiven.<P>Never take trust for granted.

Ohhhhh Yeah, TT! I definately have got to read this one!<P>Every one of those personality traits belong to my husband, every one of them.<P>His need to control me--I could never figure it out, because it wasn't like I would never to what he asked, when he asked nicely. Usually he didn't, however.<P>He hated needing me. But he did need me. I loved helping him. I would have done anything for him, and I couldn't understand that when I did, he would either downplay what I had done for him (if it was something that he had failed at himself,) or else thank me like I was being incredibly magnanimous toward him. <P>The sulking--definately. He called it "Time out to think, don't bother me."<P>I called it "What did I do now?" (It was easier to sulk than talk about it.)<P>The competition thing--he'd compete with me like crazy. When we were both in the military, starting out together, it made him mad that I was E-4 when he was E-3, it really irked him (like it's a big deal when you are a go-fer and a grunt.)<P>When it comes to competing with other dudes, forget it. He doesn't play--which is silly, because he is very athletic and in top physical condition. (Thank God he is, because if he ever had less than a 299 PT score, I think he'd just get out of the military. He has to be the best.) <P>And I remember we went bowling once with another couple--it was supposed to be a lot of fun. Call me gutterball queen with a score of 70--who cares, I was having a blast. The other wife kicked everybody's butt big time--she was good. My husband refused to play anymore. He doesn't play when he can't win.<P>On a grand scale--well, I can't really describe this to you because it has to do with his career that he has now, but he once backed out of graduating from a huge military school (on graduation day) after attending it for months. No reason to give. He said "I just didn't want it. It wasn't in my future." It was a huge career move that required near-perfection. I know he was afraid of failure, but he would never admit to that.<P>He does foster chaos. He likes to debate about everything. He will argue with me, all the time accusing me that I am the one who is getting upset. He yells at me, and then says "Why are you yelling? Can't you control yourself?" It's so weird. It's maddening.<P>Procrastination--always. He gets on me if payments are late, but I have never known him to ever get anything done on time. He is very messy and disorganized. Intelligent, good at what he does, but chaotic. This is an interesting trait.<P>TT, when you and your husband lived together, did you argue a lot? Did he blame you for things, even if the blame did not fit? Did you end up being the scapegoat a lot? Did he try hard to disconnect from you, as if you were intruding on his privacy just by being married to him? (It's funny finding yet another woman is a way to try to escape your "intrusion.")<P>One of the things that I think attracted my H in a big way to OW was that she NEEDED him. For her petty little crybaby needs. (Her H "ignored" her--oh, he was "good" to her, but she just wasn't "in love" with him anymore. He didn't do the trick.) My H could play knight in shining armor for her, and she would kiss his @$$--he ate it up.<P>When I didn't NEED my H, he disconnected from me totally. (I always needed him, he was my husband and I loved him.) But if he couldn't totally impress me at all times, overwhelm me with his greatness, then he decided that I was a lost cause.<P>When he is in a rage, he has told me that he hates me, that I make him sick. Then he tells me that he loves me more than anything, that he will always love me, far more than he loves Miss Kitty (despite shoving me away, despite leaving me for Miss Kitty.) It is a distant kind of love, like Leilana told me, he puts me on ivory tower and is content to leave me there. That's the way he "loves" me.<P>Right there in the middle, he tells me that "we are just too different," "imcompatible." That we have never had any good times, our marriage has been a big sham. This hurts.<P>Did your husband ever say things like this?<BR>I have really stopped believing the things he says these days, and I have tried to read his mind. This is a more profitable task.<P>I don't know why I "gravitated" to him in the first place. I just plain liked him, a long time ago. Like the face that he shows to everyone, I was attracted to his politeness, and while he was quiet, he had an aire of leadership. I wondered why he was so shy--that's why I moved in on him. He was the only man that I have ever actively pursued. I am very shy, myself. I have never done well dating.<P>He was a catch, and he let himself be caught. It was so easy, way back when.<P>Now I am wondering what to do with him.<P>

Actually Bernzini, my H and I did NOT argue. A lot of things and people bug him. Most things and people do NOT bug me. I was pretty much IT for him. He didn't have a lot of friends. Just me. He was generous with his affection,,,,,when he wanted to be. The rest of the time he was a loner.<P>When the kids were small, he was great as a Dad....as our oldest started to become an "adolescent" he seemed to feel less "needed". <P>During the past two years when things were very crazy...due to the few crises at his work...I pretty much did my own thing with me and the kids. I thought I was getting us off his back.<P>I think I worked well with is need for privacy.<P>But unfortunately OW had the corner of the market so to speak 10 hours a day,,,7 days a week.<P>And yes...she did "need" him. She played damsel in distress and he the knight in shining armor. He is just repeating his previous pattern. <P>The fights of the past 8 months are the only ones I can remember in our marraige. The very first time I screamed at him about OP...he told me that was the reason he was leaving, because I was so irrational. I was floored by that.<P>He is truly passive aggressive...even with this new situation. I think he thinks he can just continue this way... Going to work...having THAT relationship (whatever it is) and seeing the kids frequently to be the "good dad". Without anyone ever knowing what is going on!!!<P>As for me...I'm kindof a nonperson. I'm the mother of his kids...and a good mother (so he tells me) but as for dealing with any of what has happened...the lies....the betrayal...well that's just "water under the bridge"<P>I sat here tonight and felt very sad. Sad, because I was not infatuated with him when we met. I was attracted to him, and felt that at ages 30 and 31 we were both "committed" to the same values and goals. I guess he was just infatuated with me. <P>I felt I was aware of and accepted his fears and insecurities. <P>And he will just go on and do what he is going to do....and I will just have to accept it. <P>As much as I am hurt by his behavior, which seemed to come from nowhere, I'm not going to bother or waste my time arguing with him.<P>He'll have to figure out for himself that his validation does not come from his vocation or adoration of others, but in how he treats others, how he conducts himself and how he feels about HIMSELF><P>I am fighting a losing battle with him because he currently finds his validation in work...with the pregnant OP at his side, who wll not stand for me in HIS picture.<P>But I still have myself and my kids. The one who will be most affected by this in the long run will be him.<P>But I do have to talk to him. The book gives some guidelines regarding talking to the pa man and at least setting boundaries for yourself. On the internet...click on to the site "How to deal with the passive aggressive man"....

TT: I'll catch you tomorrow--you have been very helpful. The kid is getting on my nerves right now and I have to go put him to bed.<P>Yes, you do seem like a lady that doesn't let a whole lot bother her! That is so cool. I wish I had that trait. <P>Could it be that you are a private person, too? Self-sufficient? And fact that you are not a debater and a person who digs contraversy might have lead your husband to disconnect himself. You weren't "needy" like what's her face. That's too bad.<P>Whatever it is--it's not YOU and you know that. It's him.<P>Please don't be sad tonight. You have so much going for you.<P>Okay, okay, I have to go. He is under my elbow harassing me. I have to put the munchkin to bed. Catch ya later.