It was 2:15 am as I wrote this out by hand, intending it to be typed this am....I was awake for a long time.....<P>I am glad that my usually disasterous 'reactionary' personality and ranting was useful and helpful to you...well, helpful-ish...whatever my rant did for you, I'm glad that it did.<P>I was having flashbacks of head-head 2x4 combat with Arik...<P>and I fully expected to to be told to pipe down, calm down, not be so harsh, etc...<P>I must say that I am awash in a myriad of emotions where you are concerned....and I'm not even the one married to you!! I just don't know what to say to you...what could I possibly say that others haven't...yet I am also bursting at the seams with things I want to say and share with you...<P>you thanked me for my honesty..well, it was raw emotion...and you cannot get more honest than that...also..you're welcome...I'm glad that it affected you...I am trying to be more honest in general...and one of the problems I have encountered at this site is that I find myself 'biting my tongue' all too often...I rarely post, usually lurk..there are times when I want to scream at the top of my lungs at people, or tell them what I 'really' think, and then I notice that I am the only one posting this way...that everyone else seems to hide behind politeness, the -be nice syndrome, political correctness, etc...all in the name of support...well, I usually delete my rantings and move on....<P>for instance, when a post asks "what happens if I can't give up the OP?", I ache to respond truthfully, such as:<P>"Then be prepared to throw your marriage, life and love away...what happens if you can't stop being selfish?...<BR>you f$ck up your life...<BR>you f$ck up your SO's life<BR>you f$ck up your kids life<BR>you f$ck up the OP's life<P>that's what happens".<P>but nooooooooo...I don't post that way....I restrain myself because I will notice that everyone is taking a soft line...trying to show the WS the 'error of their ways'...logic, reason, etc... are used...why?????? there is no logic to this situaton...I ache to be honest, but here, I find strong emotions are couched in politeness and the fear of either reprisal or judgment...amazing how we can bury our emotional honesty....well, I can't anymore...burying all that got me into the mess I am in.<P>I can be polite...hell, I was even eloquent once or twice, once upon a time...lol...but I am, at the very center, a reactive person, emotional and unfortunately for me, extremely empathic...<P>Peppermints pain slammed into me...into the very core of me...don't misunderstand..it is indeed my greatest fear..but I did not post what I did out of that fear...Deut's choices are his to make, no, my post came instead from feeling the pain you yourself had inflicted once again on her...it was easy for me to put myself in her shoes for far too long a moment. and you inflicted that..<P>you do not need me to tell you that you have one hell of a woman there....and that is not said lightly nor flippantly...I could sing her praises for pages but you know all this, as you are the one living with her...but in living with her, you may sometimes forget and have to put more effort in remembering to:<P>cherish her<BR>enjoy her<BR>laugh with her<BR>see her<BR>experience her<BR>hear her<BR>share with her<BR>hold her<BR>praise her<BR>admire her<BR>include her<BR>appreciate her<BR>earn her<BR>forgive her<BR>respect her<BR>love her<BR>worship her<BR>help her<BR>relieve her<BR>spoil her<BR>help her<BR>HONOUR her<P>she has offered you her love and forgiveness twice now..it is such a gift she gives to you...waste it, squander it, dishonour it at your own peril.<P>the cost will be your soul.<P>[angry vent part coming]<P>you have taken away some hope and faith in humanity that I had struggled very hard to find again....YOU are responsible for another human beings loss of hope....I hope that affects you as well...<P>I am so disappointed in you<BR>I am so disappointed in your choices<BR>I am so disappointed in your actions<P>and to find out in the manner she did....you coward.<P>you said that you felt a weight lift off of you when Pepperminnt found out....yes...I'm sure it did indeed feel that way....unfortunate that the weight then fell onto your wife...the <B>full force</B> of it fell on your wife....so I am glad you no longer have it on your shoulders, but perhaps you could get a backhoe (insert OW/Ho puns here) and help clear the crap off of Peppermint?<P>I can only imagine the actual depth of her pain....the humiliation..the all-encompassing feeling of devastation 'oh-god-could-I-please-get-hit-by-a-train-instead-of-this pain........I, in my first post to this board refer to an emotion I call mind-rape...the pain that rips instead of cuts....you have inflicted this on her...you have saddened me.<P>you are a thief....the worst kind...you stole her love, her faith, her hope, her trust....and her belief in you.....again .<P>I hope you are sincere this time...I truly do...I hope you find it within to try to redeem yourself and work on your partnership.<P>you have serious work to do.<P>I have rarely had this much anger, despair and disappointment directed at someone...but it's because I truly care about you...otherwise, I could shrug it off and be indifferent..<P>If you can't be faithful and respectful, or if your attitude reflects anything other than shame and remorse right now, please leave your wife now...<P>I ask this on behalf of betrayed spouses seeking respect...<P>do not do her the ultimate indignity of doing this again (I fear for more than OW's car).<P>[end angry vent rant]<P>I am glad you are in counselling.<BR>I am glad you are at home, working on healing through this, helping Peppermint, and re-learning how to be a married person.<P>I am glad you gave up OW...glad you took the blinders off and saw her true self..the vindictive, wife-hating ***** that she truly sounds like to me.<P>I am glad you don't like what you see in the mirror.<P>I am glad you want to rectify that and change the guy you see there.<P>I am glad that Peppermint loves you.<P>I am glad you posted here.<P>I am glad that you will do your utmost to grow from this, to support and help Peppermint in ANYWAY needed..to be the man and husband you know that each of you deserves you to be.<P>I'm glad that you are actively taking part in fixing that place deep inside yourself where it hurts...the place that makes you feel the way you do about yourself....you know what and where I'm talking about...heal your hurt...heal her hurt..<P>I am proud of you for coming here and posting...it shows me honesty, remorse and openess.<P>I am proud of you for choosing your marriage, your vows, your love for a GREAT woman, and your family over further pain, devastation and loss of self-respect...it shows me <B>integrity</B>.<P>I am proud of you for sitting down and eally talking to Peppermint about the A this time...it couldn't have been easy...it shows me <B>courage.</B><P>I am proud of you for writing that no-contact letter....it shows me <B>character.</B><P>I am proud of you for turning your back on OW and respecting your wife....it shows me <B>honour.</B><P>and mostly, I am proud of you for building a wall and opening a window.......<P>because that shows <B>love.</B><P>there may indeed be hope.....you may have given back a little bit of that to me with your post.....<P>now go give more than that to the woman that loves you ...your wife.<P><BR>Dylan<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Dylan,<P>When peppermint and I first came to this site, the post that you and your H wrote here had the most positive influence on me.<P>I do remember Arik and some of the crap that he put his W through. I remember your post and your honesty in the words that you wrote. You do not have to pull any punches with me and the one thing that I value in anyone, is honesty. That statement coming from a liar like me. Thank you for posting directly to me. <P>Peppermint and I both made errors in our recovery, but I made the bad choice. Yes. the burden has been taken off of my shoulders and placed on peppermint's. Now I hope to take it off of her and throw it down the hill, far away from both of us. Whenever you see a betrayer post here, don't hold back. I don't plan to. Peppermint and I are committed to each other and we will make this work. Thanks to you and your honesty and all the others here, I will be a better person.<P>......fs

Dylan,<P>Thank you, more than you will ever know.<P>Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by firestorm:<BR><B>Dylan,<P>When peppermint and I first came to this site, the post that you and your H wrote here had the most positive influence on me.<P>Thank you for posting directly to me. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and I feel badly that we have not continued our rebuilding here together.....Peppermint has, on several occasions mentioned that we should return...both Deut and I...I think she may be right....we should have continued to be a positive influence on you...<P>I'm sorry....I feel like we let the both of you down...at times, I wonder if there is a large mirror reflecting our lives at each other....the similarities are at times, eerie...<P>Deut has read some of what has happened in your marriage....he has not posted here...but he is angry...very angry with you...I cannot sit in judgment of his reaction to your actions...but he does want me to share his e-mail with you....for Deut, not everything is comfortable out in th open...even anonymously...<P>todcom@videotron.ca<P>I think it may be helpful to the both of you to open up to each other...help each other...you both have the same pain inside...and I think Peppermint might agree that the source of this pain from within you stems from the same place inside of him...<P>as for rebuilding and recovery, I think you can do this...Peppermints willingness to go through this again is half the battle, I believe....but the other half is yours...<P>I'm watching....please don't let me down.<P>as for responding directly to you, I had no other choice..you singled me out in your post....also, you hurt me...you hurt me and my faith and hope in humanity with your mistreatment of your wife...this is personal..not just 'part of the board'....<P>your actions had a domino affect...your wife, family, her family, neighbors, OP's family...members here....all were affected...me, a strange woman in another country you'll probably never meet has been hurt.. to her soul, has cried tears, has felt physically ill....has been 'marked' in a way, by what you did...you have that power...be careful what you <B>choose</B> to do with it...<P>I responded directly also because Peppermint deserved it...she <I>knows</I> parts of me...better than I do myself...you needed to have a few things said..that she could not...would not...even after all this, there are still things she will 'stifle' so as not to hurt you...because she loves you...you...yoou...you...putz !<P><BR>Peppermint....again...cyber hugs seem too flippant...you have my respect...my admiration...and my 2x4...you love him, you know him best...and I will respect your judgment and your belief in him and support you 1000%....my friend, you deserve so much....and I hope you find joy in him again...<P>for you too, again...<P>sacred_rain@yahoo.com...<P>I know you once said to someone that you don't e-mail, chat, etc...I understand and respect your reasons....but keep the address....if the need ever arises...<P>and you're welcome....more than you'll ever know.......<P>Dylan<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Wow.<P>For someone who has basically had the easiest time with my H affair I still come here. It has been 16 months. We are basically OK as a couple. But for some reason I am once again in a very depressed state. And just when I was thinking about weaning myself off the Paxil <P>I don't relaly feel entitled to the depression any more. H is here with me and has been since D-Day. He is extremely remorseful and has not let one day go by without telling me how sorry he is and how much he loves me.<P>I guess I am greedy-looking for something I just don't deserve!<P>Anyhow-between In Recovery and General Questions II I feel like my mind is reeling.<P>A lot is happening again here at MB. But to me the best thing is seeing Soulloss back again She and Duet never should have left!<P>Firestorm and Peppermint-I truly hope the very best for you. Deep down I think it will all turn out. I just wish the road there didn't have to be so rocky!<P>I am feeling emotional after reading this thread. Time for me to go do some more thinking.<P> <P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

some depressions come and go....mine has decided it likes the environment and has been on an extended visit for 6 months...<P>don't shrug off your own pain, Heartache...do not let it come out as if you are embarassed to still be hurting...you have <B>not</B> had an 'easy' time....you are entitled to acknowledgment for that...just because H is there, never left, ended the A, etc...DOES NOT MEAN you did not and do not continue to suffer....<P>I too felt guilty for a time....remember that????...as if my situation was so much better off than most...that my marriage was more 'hopeful', that Deut had never left...blah...blah..what right did I have to be her and open my mouth hen there were others whose SO's were downright cruel and evil....who had left to be with the OP, or who had children with OP...all situations I know would have killed my soul...instead, I only had a Soul-loss...and I had to do the work to find it again....I didn't feel 'worthy' to be here...<P>so many had it so much worse than me...<P>don't fall into that trap.....you are better than that, Heartache...you take your pain, girl, and you wallow around in it <B>naked</B> if you have to...if that is what it takes to have it run its course through your system and purge itself...then maybe you can begin to heal...<P>I love you dearly, and it pains me to read the pain in your post....<P>we may need some m&m's....lots of them...<P>sacred_rain@yahoo.com<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by firestorm:<BR><B><P> Thanks to you and your honesty and all the others here, I will be a better person.<P>......fs</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ummmmm...no,..... thanks to <B>yourself</B>... YOU and ONLY YOU can make yourself a better person...<P>turn to your wife for guidance in that department...you have the blueprint for what makes a great human being right in front of you...use it well......<P>glad to see you are posting..<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Peppermint, you said:<P>I guess the best way to describe it is that I always kept him somewhat away from<BR> me, not quite at arm's length. Sometimes very close, with only a sheet of plexiglass<BR> between us. But I never truly let him back into my life and my heart. I'm not sure<BR> why, maybe self-protection or maybe as a form of punishment for hurting me. But I<BR> always let him know that we weren't quite together.<P> For example, there is a big difference between putting your arms around someone and<BR> hugging them; between kissing someone and letting them kiss you; between being<BR> sexual and being intimate. I never really opened my heart back up to him, and he<BR> could tell. He used to ask me often if I would ever really love him again. I would<BR> always reply that I did love him. He would ask if I would ever be IN love with him<BR> again. I would say that I hoped so.""<P><B>we need to talk....</B><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles<p>[This message has been edited by soulloss (edited September 13, 2000).]

soulloss,<P>I was here when your post popped up. I am working on this, not because peppermint wants me to, but because I want to. I did see a counslor this morning. She did a very good job of helping open my eyes a little further. I would say that they are about 95% open now to this whole mess. Together I think we answered some questions about the "WHY THIS HAPPENED" part. I will post more later today about this meeting.<P>She did say that nobody, other than myself, could end the affair and rid myself of the OW. This is true. I don't have much time right now but I will post later.<P>Thanks......fs<p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited September 13, 2000).]

Hey Dylan,<P>Okay, you know I LOVE to talk to you. But please don't think that what I wrote is my way of blaming myself for what firestorm did. I AM NOT TO BLAME FOR HIS ACTIONS. I know that.<P>Dylan, I love that man with all of my heart, but I have come to realize that I am the strong one in this house. The wall I built was an unpleasant obstacle for firestorm, and if you look up "conflict avoider" in the psychological dictionary you will SEE a picture of firestorm there.<P>So rather than deal with the difficulty of the distance between us, he took the easy way out. Believe me, I know that is his weakness, not mine.<P>Hey, I still want to talk to you anyway!<P>Love ya,<P>Peppermint

WWWWWHHHHHHHHOAAAAAAA........<P>yikes!!...I did not intend for you to think I was implying anything of the like...LOL...we are, I like to think, very clear on where blame/guilt/etc....goes<P>I meant that we have to talk about the wall...<P>mine is about 47 feet high and about 29 feet thick...<P>it is <B>THE</B> obstacle.<P>the 'in-love' feelings are just not there...blah, blah...<P>you are going thru enough right now without having to hold my hand..that is not what I want..to be a burden to you...<P>it's just that the wall and the 'love' feelings struck a huge chord...<P>and next to firestorms pic under 'conflict avoider' is Deut's.....<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Hey Dylan,<P>Sorry about the overreaction. FHL's post on another thread made me a little peeved.<P>ANYWAY, the wall is a huge problem. Are the two of you talking about it or ignoring it? We ignored it and hoped it would disappear all on its own. BAD CHOICE. My advice is to try something other than that.<P>Firestorm went to a counselor today, and it was fabulous. Dylan, the woman took one look at him and basically described the affair to him!!! She also described the other woman and asked him how close she was in her description. Dead on target. She told firestorm that he had been used, and that he was never anything special to that kind of woman. She described his affair as an attempt (read pathetic) to boost his self-image, at the expense of a loving wife. Does any of this sound familiar? <P>He came home so excited that he has plans to schedule individual and joint counseling for us with her. We are fortunate that his company insurance will pay. He also has an appointment for phone counseling with Steve Harley on Monday, and plans for a weekend getaway for us soon. We'll see.<P>As to holding you hand, think of all the times you've held mine. Stick close, girlfriend.<P>I only wish that some of what we experience and learn will help you and that man of yours. As least something good would come out of this. We will certainly be here sharing it all with you. Whether you want it or not!<P>Don't EVER refer to yourself as a burden, you are a true blessing in this awful mess.<P>I missed you and am glad you're back. Just wish it hadn't taken something so horrible for us to reestablish a link.<P>Love ya,<P>Peppermint<P>

Dylan and Peppermint,<P>I would love to talk more about intimacy and the wall. Even though I believe he did end the A with that no contact letter, we went through a long period where I was making all the effort.<P>Then he started making a few changes...<P>Then I came to believe he genuinely feels love for me so I must have done a pretty good job.<P>But how do I feel about him? Not sure.<P>There have been sparks, hotter and brighter than in any previous time in our ten years. During those times I felt the longed for intimacy.<P>Yet I still feel alienated...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B>Hey Dylan,<P>Sorry about the overreaction. FHL's post on another thread made me a little peeved.</B><P>****** understood. no, really, truly...I read it....I understand.***<P><B>ANYWAY, the wall is a huge problem. Are the two of you talking about it or ignoring it?</B> <P>****** ignoring it...well, he just thinks 'something is not right' from time to time, and I sit and obsess over its height and continuing width.*****<P><B>Firestorm went to a counselor today, and it was fabulous. Dylan, the woman took one look at him and basically described the affair to him!!! She also described the other woman and asked him how close she was in her description. Dead on target. She told firestorm that he had been used, and that he was never anything special to that kind of woman. She described his affair as an attempt (read pathetic) to boost his self-image, at the expense of a loving wife. Does any of this sound familiar?</B> <P>******ooooooohhhh...he's been used....does he feel cheap and dirty yet???....can we spell gullible?..(is that how you spell it?...lol)...men!!! women!! the OW is a conniving b!tch...it was apparent...as long as the 2 of you seemed happy, she could not rest...had you been evil to each other, she probably would have left him alone...one of those "if I can't have him, then I'll ruin his life and make sure his wife hates him" kind of insecure psycho-b!tches...as for boosting self-image....why the hell can't they find a way to boost their self images either at home with their spouses, at a gym or at least, <B>NOT</B> by having sex with other people...*******<P><B>He came home so excited that he has plans to schedule individual and joint counseling for us with her. We are fortunate that his company insurance will pay. He also has an appointment for phone counseling with Steve Harley on Monday, and plans for a weekend getaway for us soon. We'll see.</B><P>**** good. I am keeping fingers crossed...and am praying to my pagan gods/godesses for you...lol....hey...a weekend up here in Canada might be just the thing you need...hint...hint...nudge...nudge....LOL****<P><BR><B>As to holding you hand, think of all the times you've held mine. Stick close, girlfriend.</B><P>*****I've moved into your basement...you just don't know it yet...I'm taking notes****<P><BR><B>Don't EVER refer to yourself as a burden, you are a true blessing in this awful mess.<BR>I missed you and am glad you're back. Just wish it hadn't taken something so horrible for us to reestablish a link.</B><P>*** <I>inappropriate and in 'bad taste' style of humour warning </I>....you guys did all this just to get me to post again, didn't you?? ....sigh....I knew you cared...but...sheeeeeesh...guys, control yourselves....<P>seriously, I think I'll start a new thread for us...I feel badly taking up poor firestorms post to discuss all this...and you can tell him that despite his marital infidelity, as he is a firefighter, I have a large respect for his profession as I had a fire in '94...trapped in my building, etc...(that's another post altogether)and saw firemen in action.****<P><B>Love ya,</B><P>******* right back at 'ya *****<P><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

up for peppermint...

Hey Dylan,<P>First of all, we don't have basements here in the deep south. So we let all our eccentric relatives and friends live in the attic. Hot, but with a better view!<P>As to taking notes, after you make some sense of this whole mess please share it with me!<P>Let me ask for your honest opinion on this. After dday #1, I did the typical woman thing (wondered if this was my fault; felt inadequate; let the pain completely dominate my life, etc.) Then I dedicated myself to forgiving firestorm and recovering our relationship. He made lots of promises, but almost immediately began neglecting them (wouldn't write a no-contact letter, wouldn't read Surviving An Affair, wouldn't do the POJA, rules of honesty and time, etc.) I let it slide because I didn't want to nag him right back to the other woman (gotta watch those lovebusters, you know). Oh, I had my bad moments, but all in all, I let him off the hook pretty easily. Now I think I was TOO easy on him.<P>You see, he didn't really think he had done anything wrong because he was still in the "if I didn't have intercourse I didn't commit adulterty" kind of mode, and still insisted it was a "friendship that crossed the line one time". He has since admitted that he did intend to end the affair because I wanted him to, but not because he thought it was the right thing to do. And when he began drifting back into his old patterns, I didn't do much about it.<P>So, did I let him off too easily the first time? And how can I try to recover from this without making that mistake again? Plus, how does "the wall" enter into this?<P>I have to say that I am feeling stronger every day now and seeing things pretty clearly for what they are. But I'm still confused about what to do from here. Please share some words of wisdom with me!!!<P>Everyone else is invited to do the same. Surely I am not the only one here who has been through this same thing. All input welcomed!<P>Dylan, I saw this almost as soon as you posted, but was waiting for that new thread you mentioned. Though this one seems to be going quite nicely!<P>Peppermint

peppermint.....I am thankful that my WS has followed the rules of recovery but I still feel like he got off easy. BUT heres the other side of the coin. If we do nag at them or act like a bi***,isnt that a great way to drive them to the OW? Its a no win situation and I am not saying that I dont nag LOL I know a BS that said to me "you dont want your husband to associate you with bad thoughts(being a nag etc) You want him to have good feelings about you".<P>I think it is a fine line we have to walk....speaking up for what we need without it being a bad thing........ughhhhhh,this is so hard sometimes <P>Take care,<BR>Garden<P>PS.....My husband did not write a letter because he didnt know where she lived....thank God. But he did call her and say that he loved me and for her to never call him again......does that still count? Anyone?

I got halfway through answering your post, saw that it was rapidly turning into the longest novel I have written to date, and threw it into word document so that I can give it the time and care it needs...<P>but let me see what I can say quickly...yeah, me, quickly........ROTFLMAO...BBBWWWWWWWaaaaahahahahahahaahahahahahaah....ahem.<P>you wrote:<BR><B>"So, did I let him off too easily the first time? And how can I try to recover from this<BR> without making that mistake again? Plus, how does "the wall" enter into this?<P> I have to say that I am feeling stronger every day now and seeing things pretty clearly<BR> for what they are. But I'm still confused about what to do from here. Please share some<BR> words of wisdom with me!!!"</B><P>I am being bombarded with memories, visuals, emotions right now...<P>on my face is a smirk....<P>brutal truth... (without the 14 (count 'em..14!!) paragraphs that it took to address this in my original answer) yes, I htink he got off too easy...I also think Deut did as well...to quote myself (oooohhhhh...you just gotta read this thing I'm writing...)<P>""but overall, think about it...these men have an affair, we 'freak' (and all that encompasses), over-compensate, stroke their egos, give them the wifely version of the OW drug, they get comfy, the same old patterns (from both wife and husband, let's be fair) start re-emerging minus the OW, we bite our tongues lest we drive them away <B>again</B>... then get indignant and righteous at their continued neglect...<P>yet, they never had to lose their faith and belief in us, they still got our beds to share, our bodies to enjoy, our laundry and housekeeping services, they had their families intact, their kids, barely anyone else knowing, oh, they had to watch us torment ourselves, they hugged us, said many sweet and wonderful things, suffered along with us (we like to think)...but what did they really lose?..what impact did having an affair really have on their lives????<P>their wives turning sumersaults to please them is what they got...<BR>they are the ones who for a short/long time got an improved version of every-freakin-thing!!!!!!...<BR>they've got it made!!!...<BR>and we, insecure beyond recognition at this point, dish it out and then keep the unhappiness in...or let it leak out in 'blah' days... <P>and we live in fear, mistrust and alot of pain, mental anguish, self-questioning, self-esteem issues, mental instability, weight probs, greying hair, anxiety attacks, wrinkles, bad skin, and horrible visuals of our beloveds in flagrante delecto with OW in return...""<P>end of quoting myself <P>Yes, Peppermint, I think they did...'get off' (oh the puns I could just...can't...control...laughter.....bbbwwwwaahahahaahhaa} easy.<P>but it could be that I'm just bitter... <P>the wall....sigh....no clue there yet...I'm still in shock at discovering my own wall...poor Deut...<P>what do you do from here....oh god....I'm going to actually think about this and include it in my uber-post...I really have to think about this...you see, I think our recovery is failing...hugely..no, Deut has no other or same OW...nothing like that......my 'funk' will not dissipate....so whatever answer I give you, I have to be careful because this time, I will be following my own advice..perhaps free-floating through recovery and the disasters that have followed was not the best idea..perhps, I need.....dare I say it???...a plan???????!!!!!!<P>**snort** ...it's only been a year almost...time to get a plan, Peppermint, as I don't seem to be able to get a clue...<P>I'm off to think now....pen and paper has always served me best....will be back...<P>I hope my 'innappropriate humour' on the last post did not offend...I <B>know</B> I'm not the center of universe....LOL...<P>*hugs*...for now, BREATHE............<P>Dylan<P><BR>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles<p>[This message has been edited by soulloss (edited September 14, 2000).]

<BR>WHAT? YOU'RE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE?<P>Good grief, Dylan! I'm still trying to recover from one recent shock, you could have broken the news a little more gently!<P>By the way, I can hardly wait for the mega-post. But use it to start that new thread so that firestorm will not feel that he is getting trashed on this one!!<P>Peppermint

Hey Girls!!!!<P>Sorry to jump in here but after reading all that was said I figured I could put my "I agree 100%, yeah, mmmhmm's" in.<BR>The last couple of replies in the thread seemed to hit home with me big time. It's not like I dwell on it ALL the time but there are moments that those thoughts creep into my head. Like when I am running the bath for the baby (she's almost 3 but will always be the baby to me), and suddenly I am taken back to several months ago and I think:<BR>"So what did I get out of all this"<BR>"He had the affair, he got all the wonderful feelings that went along with it(and lets face it no matter how wrong it was it did feel goo for them) he gets to find out how much I truly do love him, he gets the benefit of plan A (even if it was a little flawed), ..."<BR>and what exactly do I get??...I get to find out that the person I trusted blindly abused that trust, I get hurt beyond any hurt I had experienced before... and then I find out that yes he really does love me and it wasn't a flaw in me but something amiss deep inside him that caused it, I get to find out what I am truly made of and the strength that I carry within me. I find out that I can forgive and I can work on moving on.<P>Somedays I get to the second part of that answer and I guess that is all that really matters- for me anyway.<P>I sank to such a depth when I read your returning post peppermint. My hurt was for you but also out of fear for myself as I am sure every re-building betrayed spouse fears the re-curance of an affair. <P>I am "glad" (can we ever really be glad that somebody is posting here?) to see you both posting again and working things through. I hope for only the best for the 2 of you (and for duet and dylan too). <P>God Bless you both!!! <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited September 15, 2000).]