<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>Dylan and Peppermint,<P>I would love to talk more about intimacy and the wall. Even though I believe he did end the A with that no contact letter, we went through a long period where I was making all the effort.<P>Then he started making a few changes...<P>Then I came to believe he genuinely feels love for me so I must have done a pretty good job.<P>But how do I feel about him? Not sure.<P>There have been sparks, hotter and brighter than in any previous time in our ten years. During those times I felt the longed for intimacy.<P>Yet I still feel alienated...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey gals, anyone see this?<P>

Peppermint,<P>Funny in my case I feel like I have not put up a wall. I guess I felt I had nothing left to lose, so I have completely given to him, the hugs, kisses, love-making have been very real.<P>And Dylan, I have found I can help him to better meet my needs, have not let him sink back down into the neglect he's given me for years.<P>But at some level, will it ever be really sweet for me??? I set him up to succeed like telling him exactly what I wanted on my b-day and reminding him like I would my 5 year old son. I still only got a part of what I asked. <P>Only recently he has said for the first time, he really wants to meet my needs. I should be jumping up and down, I guess. But I wonder if it is too little, too late? Will he become the man I need? I won't settle for the marriage we had. He neglected me for years, and I shut down and stopped doing a good job meeting his needs.<P>I agree with Harley that As are about unmet needs. But there is so much more to it. I've found it's also true that he never invested enough into the marriage and that it was a point in his life that he faced a real crisis of confidence (+ MLC).<P>I too feel he got off easy, but I want a great marriage with him and I have lived my life for that. The jury is not yet in on whether we can have this together.

I for one love your sense of humor, Dylan!<P>As well as the brutal honest feelings that are wrenching our guts out but we're not supposed to be expressing. <P>I'm learning as well as nodding my head along with everything posted here. <P>Thanks, guys.<P>H and I are headed back into counseling due to unresolved issues and my unmet expectations. I'm getting tired of doing all the marriage work and fretting over it's health 24/7. I need a Harley infusion STAT. <P>Either that or quit my job and make a career out of catering to my high maintenence H! <P>Aloha,<P>Leilana <P>

Hey Nicole,<P>Good to see you posting here again. I felt the same things you mentioned, even before this new mess. I wish I had some answers for us.<P><BR>Hi Leilani,<P>I've been wondering where you were. I'm glad to hear you're going to use counseling to deal with the unresolved issues. That's certainly a MUCH better idea than what I'm going through.<P>Schizzo,<P>I have often read your posts that mention your unwillingness to accept the kind of marriage you had previously. I agree. Have you implemented some kind of plan to avoid that? If so, please share it with us.<P>Isn't it great to have Dylan back and at her literary finest? Maybe every cloud DOES have a silver lining!<P>I'll check back soon,<P>Peppermint

Hi Peppermint--<P>LOL - Whose to say at this very moment I'm not about to join the second-timers at recovery club! One of my issues is that (in my opinion) my H is apparently still getting a need met by the OW<BR>due to the fact they are still working together and she is still adoring him. <P>If they could have sex on company time in her office restroom and in the company warehouse, etc., etc., and #%(*$%@ etc. and no one was the wiser how the heck would I know if I'm not in your same boots already?<P>Please visualize me rolling my eyes and laughing as I write this. I'm not as angry as that sounded but this is the reality I'm dealing with so I'm not exactly a poster child for a marriage in successful recovery yet either. <P> <P>Leilana

Dylan, it IS good to have you back and I wish I could write half as well.<P>A plan, mmmm?<P>We filled out the questionnaires and submitted a written plan to Jennifer H to address meeting the top 5. Her emphasis was on positive reinforcement, how we would "brag" to each other on what we had done that week.<P>It worked some, but it seems most sessions with her, I complained about what he wasn't doing and she would talk to him. I feel sometimes like I have to treat him like my 5 yr old son. Not too romantic or fulfilling for me.<P>He dragged his feet. My #1 need is affection. Following the Harley way, I spelled out how many hugs, kisses, calls, etc. I wanted each day. They felt forced, but at least he was trying. Then, it started feeling better, and we had many great conversations and the passion "sparks".<P>But I've found myself pulling back lately. Wondering if this is as good as it gets...<P>Peppermint, I see so many stages for us. I don't know about you, but my h has never met my needs. I didn't marry him because of an overflowing love bank. I admired many of the traits that got him into trouble: he is cocky, very convincing, ambitious, good at "handling" people, smart, organized, a good speaker...<P>For him, willingness to meet my needs is only one step. IT IS LEARNED BEHAVIOR, and I'm waiting to see whether he will learn it. What we have always had is a great friendship (mostly me being a great friend to him) and good teamwork.<P>Am I making sense?

Leilana,<P>Your positive and upbeat attitude is probably the thing I admire most about you! (Plus the whole NoMas thing, subject for another time.)<P>I can't imagine having to deal with those kind of images and knowing that they are still in the same environment. In my case, after firestorm's confession last year, I really thought it had ended and that I was being observant and alert. They just got sneakier when it flared up again two months ago, but still no in-depth sexual escapades to contend with.<P>One thing I have realized this time is that no matter how much a betrayed spouse wants the betrayer to end the affair, it will not really end until the cheating spouse really WANTS to end it. For firestorm, his two greatest emotional needs are recreational companionship (read that as following him around to things HE wants to do and then thanking him for letting me go) and respect and admiration (kind of hard for me to admire and respect a lying, cheating husband when MY number one need is openness and honesty!).<P>So the other woman did some of the companionship and ALL of ego-stroking, so she definitely met some of his needs. Again, I am really glad to hear about your counseling, and good luck with it.<P>Schizzo,<P>It seems to me that your marriage was based on some mutually satisfying things, but neither one of you was really meeting each others needs totally. Same thing in our case. Of course, neither you nor I chose to have an affair because of our unmet needs.<P>And obviously, some of those needs are still unmet. In my case, I guess I really want firestorm to devote himself to me and my needs as a way of atoning for the affair. That's a nice little fantasy, but completely unrealistic for someone who tends to be, how can I say this nicely? Completely self-involved and extremely selfish.<P>I repeat, we need a plan. And so do you. If the one Jennifer devised isn't working, you need to change it.<P>I found your comments about "the wall" interesting. I don't feel it as much this time, but I don't feel much of anything right now, except disappointment, anger, and resentment that is. Wonder why you didn't wall yourself off as most of us betrayed spouses seem to do? Let's think about that one. Perhaps it has something to do with the way you found out about the affair and the way your husband handled it immediately after discovery.<P>This discussion could perhaps give us all some valuable insight. I'll check back later.<P>Peppermint

I really wanted to get on this thread.<P>I've seen some things written that have been bothering me for a long time now. <P>I posted once, long ago, how strongly I felt about the WS putting his whole being into recovery once he made the decision to work on the marriage...and was met with comments such as, "with that attitude missy, you're going to be walking into divorce court sooner than later"....and, "you can't tell your H what you want, you must PLAN A and make him feel safe"....<P>...and I nearly died a second death. Me? Did you say me?...make him feel safe? What freaking turnip truck do you think I just fell off of????<P>Now, I loved this man. He was my best friend, my lover, my confidant. I would lay down my life for him. I loved the way he smelled, the way he laughed, the way he held me, the way he smiled. I still got chills just hearing his voice on the phone when he'd call me unexpectedly from work. I still melted just from his touch....sometimes just from the scent of his aftershave as I would be putting his shirt in the hamper. I was deeply commited, hopelessly in-love with my H at the time of his A. AND HE KNEW IT. AND AFTER 18 YEARS OF MARRIAGE HE <B>KNEW ME</B>.<P>And he cruelly took advantage of my being, my soul, my person. MY FAITHFULNESS. MY TRUST.<P>It was almost exactly one year ago today that my H first shared his body with OW. Earlier that evening, H and I had been at our D's tennis match. I remember sitting on the bleachers...it was a nice crisp afternoon...chit-chatting about how beautiful and talented our D was and how proud we were of her. I remember his insistance that he couldn't be late for his *poker night* with "the guys" that evening and how he wanted to leave our D's match early so they wouldn't grumble. And then, what did I do???, I reached over and handed him my cell phone and a $5 dollar bill. I kissed him tenderly and told him to place a five dollar bet for me, tell the guys I said "HI!", told him I loved him and to drive safely, and said to call me on my cell phone if he NEEDED ME FOR ANYTHING.....<P>...and I'm supposed to make him feel safe???? Safe from what? A sexually transmitted disease?...."Oh dearest H, don't forget to use your condoms when you visit OW....I've slipped some in your coat pocket just to be on the safe side....be sure to let me know when your supply is running low so I can run right out and buy more!"<P>Not only did I build a wall, I constructed an entire fort made of cast iron steel. I was protecting myself....from HIM.<P>Okay, so where is this story going anyway??? I'm not sure....<sigh>. <P>I guess I just wanted my voice to be heard. Sometimes you don't want to hear "You have to do this, or you should do this, or you can't do that, or the book says this...."<P>Sometimes, you just want someone to say, "I HEAR YOU".<P>------------------------------------------<BR><B>Dearest Peppermint, Dearest Schizzo, Dearest Dylan, Dearest Leilana..."I HEAR YOU!"</B><P>Peace, ~Marie<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited September 15, 2000).]

OHMY_MARIE,<P><BR>I HEAR YOU!!!!!<P>Boy....do I hear you <P>And now-even though it is really early-i am going to gt to bed.<P>It seems that bedtime..........once I fall asleep-thank God I can do that-is the only time I can't stop the thinking!<P>Never give up <P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

keep it coming, ladies.......I am cutting and pasting like a maniac....<P>so much to say......so much to respond to...<P>just a quick question...how many of us were betrayed, erupted, freaked, found this site, and quickly 'shut up'... plan A-ed (to whatever end), and have never expressed much of what we have felt, are feeling and may continue to feel???<P>isn't there something to be said for emotional honesty??<P>I told Deut tonight that I think I may hate him...I love him...I really do...but I'm real close to hate at times....when thinking of the affair.....<P>he asked tonight if 'we' are alright....I told him no..<P>I have been cheated on by almost everyone I have ever been involved with....it may be coloring my actions, thoughts, feelings, etc...I just may be tired of it all...I want to be able to trust......and I don't think I ever can trust him.....I can't live like that....<P>anyhoo.......the 'uber-post' waits.....gotta get back to it...but it will never be finished if you super-women don't stop posting such great things....cut and paste...cut and paste....<P>Nicole...sorry I missed your call...but Deut was, believe it or not, playing a game online and on the phone with his opponent at the same freakin' time...LOL...<P>Cindy......I think those tots of yours need a nanny for when you travel all over the world.....I'm sending my resume ...<P>Heartache....I got the M&M's..... <P>Garden Girl..i am so jealous that your H doesn't know where OW lives....I kept finding pictures of OW's front door all over the place...argh!!<P>marie......turnip truck........ROTFLMAO<P>leilana.......I think we should all come visit you in hawaii...I'll start swimming tomorrow...from eastern canada...I should see you in january... <P>back to the uber-post.....<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Hey Dylan,<P>After dday#1, I completely lost it for about 10 days and alternated between being a raving maniac and a lifeless ragdoll. Then I started to search for something to help me. This site was the first thing I found.<P>By that time, firestorm's pledges of love and promises of a complete change were starting to sink in, so I grabbed on to the Harley principles and tried to do my best. I certainly didn't do a plan A worthy of Lori, but it was a great improvement for me. I certainly REDUCED the number of lovebusters and swallowed as much of the negative feelings as I could. All that is TOTALLY unlike me, and I would never have let anybody else mistreat me and "get away with it".<P>Now I realize that not fully releasing my emotions certainly contributed to "the wall", and I have handled things very differently this time. Also, the first time I had those typical "somehow this is my fault, it I were better it wouldn't have happened" kind of insane thoughts. Those are definitely not here this time.<P>So, in conclusion, I think your hypothesis has a great deal of merit, and I look forward to further discussion about it.<P>Mainly I can hardly wait for the "big one" that you're working on. And Dylan, I think this is helping you too. You're really back, thank goodness!<P>Peppermint

Soulloss-<P>Thanks for the M & M's........but I am trying to stop eating because of a nervous habit. I want to lose a few pounds or so-at my age it isn't an easy task <P>I figure once I say what I am about to say I will be BOO'd out of MB but here goes........<P>I didn't ever plan A! Sorry-but when you get me you get the real package. No phony imitations. I love my H very much-always have and always will. But to walk on glass and keep all my pain and hurt growing inside of me like a tumor just isn't my style! <P>I still say things that would be love busters and I still do love bust. But on the other hand I try to give my H more time than before (although he was the one gone all the time) and I do try to pay more attention to how he is acting when we are together.<P>I did no wrong and I will not do the tippie toe dance in order to regain my marriage with H. He either wants me or he doesn't.<P>BUT-this is his one and only chance. NO more. I have told him that no matter what if he ever hurts me like this ever again I am gone-after I hurt him very bad <P>At this point of the game I have nothing to lose. I am walking and talking in limbo-still-after over 16 months. What a sh*tty life!<P>But yes----it could be so very much worse!<P>So I guess I am lucky?<P>Maybe-maybe not. Had I been given a choice I am sure I would have opted this out!<P>Today-at the kids soccer games-I had to walk with in a few feet of the OWH. <P>Life goes on-pick up my heart and keep walking...............<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Dear Heartache: Just wanted to let you know that, I HEAR YOU TOO!<P>Dear Soulloss: Don't have time to type tonite, but I do have an answer for that loaded question you asked yesterday. Hope to be able to type reply sometime tomorrow.<P>Peace, ~Marie

I don't have time to write tonight either, but I'll be back. The kids are at their grandparents, and I'm coming here when h and I finally have some time alone???<BR>

First, I must say, it is so wonderful to be heard! And I love hearing it from you all as well. What validation that this Harley stuff if radically hard to pull off!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by soulloss:<BR><B><BR>just a quick question...how many of us were betrayed, erupted, freaked, found this site, and quickly 'shut up'... plan A-ed (to whatever end), and have never expressed much of what we have felt, are feeling and may continue to feel???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm raising my hand! My H was sleeping in his truck (as I kicked his okole out!) those first two nites after d-day. I had fully intended to divorce him but his sister got me to "listen" to what he had to say the eve. of the 2nd day (and later at 1am I found the MB site) and on day 3 he took me to see a counselor who told me I had to let him come back home.<P>And now, boy, do I feel cheated he didn't get to suffer more than that. It's as if his selfish lifestyle hasn't really changed an iota. Honest emotion! <P>I know we're having a "Takers" convention but it feels wonderful and safe with you guys.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>leilana.......I think we should all come visit you in hawaii...I'll start swimming tomorrow...from eastern canada...I should see you in january...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, soulless, I'll be waiting for you on the beach with a towel and a mai tai! In fact I'll take orders now for everyone's favorite drink. <P>

Originally posted by Soulloss: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>just a quick question...how many of us were betrayed, erupted, freaked, found this site, and quickly 'shut up'... plan A-ed (to whatever end), and have never expressed much of what we have felt, are feeling and may continue to feel???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Dear Dylan: Your most recent post--RE: finding this site and "shutting down emotions" in the guise of PLAN Aing is very thought provoking.<P>I must say that, at times, I feel VERY BLESSED by NOT happening upon this site too soon following discovery.<P>I didn't find this site until almost 5 months after d-day. I didn't begin to "use" this site until 8 months post d-day.<P>I guess you could say it took me 8 months to "find myself". And, it was a long journey of self-discovery.<P>I feel as though I WAS ABLE to pass through the necessary stages of recovery in order to come to the understanding that I WANTED my marriage. It was indeed a process--a spiritual cleansing, a healing of my heart and soul.<P>It was a VERY NECESSARY journey for me. I am NOT SORRY that I put aside PLAN A efforts in order to heal myself. Nor am I sorry for my outpouring of emotions. I needed to release the pain--I did not hold anything back. I ROARED. And, for once in my life, I was heard! It was very liberating....I felt FREE.<P>Now, I'm not going to claim that I was a perfect wife. I'm not saying that I couldn't get in a mood or be a b!tch on wheels every now and then, but I am a good person. I am a good mother and I was a good wife. I wanted to be a good wife. I enjoyed being a wife and mother. I wanted my H to be proud of me--as I was proud of him. I enthusiastically wanted to meet his needs. And, I loved him from the very bottom of my heart, with all my heart. I thought I WAS meeting his most important needs, and more importantly, he convinced me that I was.<P>Me, on the other hand, I didn't need much. Never have. I believe that you make your own happiness. I've always been secure about ME--about what I'm all about and about who I am inside. I LIKE ME. I liked my life, my job, my family. I was content. And even though my H was not meeting all my needs, I compensated by creating my own support system: friends, family, my own activities.<P>So, then, WHY did my marriage *fail*? How was my H able to cheat? Well, quite honestly, I believe I enabled him too...by allowing him to NOT MEET my needs (no voiced complaints from me) and by my continued attempts to make his world "perfect" in every way---in other words, I SPOILED HIM!!!!! <P>When he saw an opportunity to take another woman, he took it--helped himself. Why not? Marie wouldn't care--if this made him happy, it's what she'd want too....right? H's words (if I remember correctly) were something like, "I was bored with you. She was new and different. I wanted you both. I would have kept you both as long as possible. It was the best of both worlds."<P>So, as I stated before, upon discovery, and following 2 months of torrential outpouring of emotions, I didn't just build a wall--I constructed a freaking fort. And, I hid in my fort for 4 long painful months. It was during this time that I did my spiritual cleansing and self-discovery. It was during this time that I licked my wounds, healed my heart, and found my soul again.<P>When I emerged from my fort, I realized that I wanted to rebuild my marriage. The time had come. I was ready. I do not believe that I could have been rushed into this before I was ready. I liken it to the WS not being rushed into counseling or reading self-help books until they decide THEY want to work on the marriage. I liken it to the obese patient who has had 4 heart attacks and triple bypass surgery and KNOWS that they need to lose weight in order to keep living, but just doesn't have the desire to help themselves. Now, you can parade every doctor and healthcare professional before this person, to educate them on what needs to be done, BUT until THEY decide to help themselves, the education falls on deaf ears.<P>I was this way. I didn't want to help myself--and I certainly did NOT WANT TO PLAN A my H. At least not until I was good and ready too.<P>Did I gamble with my marriage? Maybe so. I guess, for me, I felt strong enough with who I was and what I needed, to take that gamble.<P>Was this about my TAKER emerging? I'm not sure. It's not like I was saying, "I won't do this, or you have to do this if you want me to do this...." It was more like I was saying, "IF we are to begin healing this relationship, rebuilding our marriage, than I must have a voice. No longer will it be your way 100% of the time. We will have an equal marriage, or we will NOT have a marriage at all." You see, I didn't WANT MORE than I should have been receiving....I wanted WHAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN receiving all along....love, respect, and equality.<P>This is when I began applying MB principles. This is when I learned about EN questionnaires and POJA. In essence, Harley promotes EXACTLY what I was fighting for--equality in a marriage. THIS SITE COULD TEACH ME HOW TO GET WHAT I WANTED.<P>I learned that in order to get what I dreamed of, I had to be willing to get past the pain and "play the game". I had to focus on the present. I had to recite to myself on a daily basis what I wanted (MY H, MY MARRIAGE, MY FAMILY UNITED) and then I had to ACT (PLAN A) like I wanted these things.<P>But, in return, I wanted my H to act like he WANTED these things too.<P>So, we called a truce. We signed a peace treaty. We gave each other clean slates--we joined hands as a team.<P>And, finally, after 11 long months, I feel at peace. The anger is gone, the pain is gone, and although the resentment occasionally flares up when *triggered*, I am, for the most part, healed. <P>Here's hoping we can all find peace. Love, ~Marie<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited September 18, 2000).]

Oh-my,<P>Loved your post. You've inspired me to attempt to articulate my journey.<P>About a month before d-day I couldn't sleep and asked my h what was wrong, why he was being so distant so much of the time?<P>Did it maybe make a difference that I learned how unhappy he was and how he wanted to leave BEFORE I learned of the As?<P>It is much easier to see from this angle, it's been almost a year since he said he wanted to leave. I was so confused. I had given him everything he wanted, was raising two babies by myself so he could pursue his dream job and travel the world. I knew many of his co-workers (single) had women at the various "ports of call", but I overestimated my h and his integrity. After all, I had a similar job when I was single and resisted the temptation to have boyfrieds in the various countries I travelled.<P>He had pursued his career and neglected the kids and me for so long that I was feeling trapped in the marriage and had shut down in meeting his needs much more than I realized.<P>I guess I must have built the fort years before d-day. He says he gave up on the marriage about 4 years ago. He never bothered to tell me. I just figured something out this weekend. It never concerned me too much that he went through 5 jobs in as many years. There were always such good reasons, they just didn't recognize his awesome talent.<P>That answers it for me as to why he strayed and I didn't. I too had a job I hated and stayed for years. I am not a quitter.<P>But neither is the best answer - to stay and build a fort or to run elsewhere. I think that if he is half the manager he thinks he is, he will learn to influence others (including me) to get what he wants. And that goes for me too. That is the beauty of POJA.<P>I discovered the "fort" when I found it so difficult during that month to "plan A". I would rather eat nails than do little things for him, not until he gave up that damn job!<P>I started to do it anyway. I saw my anger and it was ugly. It was just so unfair that he was travelling 1st class all over the world while I'm changing diapers and cleaning house and never had an evening out, nor would he take vacations!<P>I now know that I allowed that situation, well intentioned, but WRONG.<P>I spent a month hearing about all the things I was doing wrong. There were two people blaming me for the state of our lives, him and me.<P>Then I learned about the As, spanning the previous 18 months. Oh my, you said you roared and you are glad. I may have taken things too far if I hadn't already been in plan A mode. I would have thrown him out of my house and he may have brought his bimbo down from overseas. Who knows?<P>For me, I'm glad that with all the anger I had already built up, when it hit the fan, I wanted the marriage.<P>Oh, I cried and felt the pain, talked about splitting up, but I protected him from my anger. With his conflict avoider nature, I may not have been able to take it back if I had resorted to verbal or physical assault.<P>The other thing was that our sex life had never been great. Suddenly I discovered how good it could be. Was I letting go because I had nothing left to lose or was it him? I think both. He "performed" so well for the first time since I had known him. I never realized just how much he suffered from a lack of confidence. I thought he was so confident, but it was mostly what he wanted me to think.<P>I realized that if he could change and live the 4 rules, I wanted him, not someone else. Though I have often succumbed to fear, this is what has sustained me. At the point I think many put up a wall, I tore down the fort that was there. <P>However, I too have gotten through to him that it is not just that I want to stay with him. I want a great marriage and now I know what it takes. I need him to do his part and will help him.<P>Did you all have a time to look back to when you were doing a great job meeting each other's needs? We don't, this is all new and exciting for us, and I would rather focus on that than the As.