As I go through the posts here I struggle with one thing a lot. <P>I'd like your opinions on this...hope I can put this right.<P>It's about NEED.<P>I was always very needy in our marriage. H was my rock, and there for me during times I wasn't functioning well. I have a long history of panic attacks, and for a while this turned into an almost agorophobic phase. H would do anything for me...when I felt like I couldn't go certain places, he'd show up and rescue me again and again.<P>Well, I got better. I am almost (Thank God) 100% over this. There are still a few things that make me uncomfortable, but hey, I flew in a 4-seater airplane this summer!<P>Ok, so this is the thing. While OW was a very educated, professional woman, she had no one else in her life but my H. She needed him. H says she had no-one, nothing else but him. Yeah, the story is old, she pushed for committment, he freaked out and ended it.<P>But my question is...if I hadn't gotten so strong and independent...travelling alone, managing to overcome my panic problems would he have felt somewhat better because I still needed him and leaned on him so much?<P>Do they need to feel needed..or is that what drives them away?<P>H has said that I suffocated him with my neediness, but he chose an OW that had different...but similar issues. He loved that he was her world...if she said she'd call at 5pm...she'd call. He felt sorry for her because she had no children, no life other than him. All the while, I was getting used to doing my own thing, and enjoying the heck out of it. After years in a coccoon, I was going to Cancun and Nassau without him.<P>So, are we supposed to need them more? Is that the deal? They do seem to thrive on it, but also be repelled by it.<P>Oh jeez.<P>allison

Humm, thats a tough one.<BR>It seems that they think they are looking for someone who is opposite of their spouse, but sometimes it is just a minor difference. The one article I read said they usaually choose either someone opposite the spouse or a younger version of the spouse.<P>And I think that the OW has the advantage, because our spouses are telling them what they don't like about us, so they can be sure to not appaer like that.<P>I think you can be a strong and healthy person and still need your spouse and be made stronger by your relationship. Maybe you can try to head more towards the admiration aspect then true neediness.<BR>I don't know if I am saying this right. I think there are some men that need to be neeeded, did you start changing before his affair? Maybe the change in the dynamics of your relationship scared him and he did not know how to handle making new rules in your relationship.<BR>Lora

Allison,<P>I think you are very close to answering your own question.<P>My H originally was the center of my universe and vice versa. My career had a way of changing that. When I'm at work, it's as if he doesn't exist to me almost. But while the A was going on, I guess I got a taste of my own medicine. And I really hated not being the center of his universe then. (It's my top emotional need )<P>I really stopped needing him. But I never stopped loving him. Too bad they couldn't tell the difference. <P>Everything seems to boil down to selfishness. Emotional needs are selfish. Neediness is selfish. Living in my own little world and putting my H aside while I pretend I'm Mother Theresa is very selfish thinking.<P>I still need to find a balance between having my needs met and meeting those of my H not because I need to keep him by my side but because I do love him---that selfish son of a gun! <P>Answered but wrote a diary for myself there. Thanks for the thought provoking question, Allison!

It's an interesting question. Most people (friends and family) will tell you that from the outside my H looked like he needed me more. That he was very dependent on me. He would call a lot during the day, and show up wherever I was with the kids. <P>As our children got older....they seemed to want to be with friends more. He seemed to be getting uneasy with that. Plus, with him being a workaholic the past two years, I tended to just do my own thing. I thought I was getting "us" out of his hair.<P>OP, really played up her lousy marraige, at the same time ingratiateing herself to myH. I (as can his family) can see that he is now dependent on her to help him be who he thinks he needs to be. It's a pattern.. And it is truly a characteristic of a passive aggressive person.<P>A pa is a person who is afraid of being dependent, and confused about how much dependency is too much or too little. Often it's a difficult transition in the stage of individuation that occurs when you are a child.<P>The passive aggressive gets stuck in the stage in thier conflict over separation, and the problems with dependency pervade their whole life.<P>They are scared and insecure if not in constant contact with someone important to them. <P>Mutual dependency implies that however enriching another's presence may be in your life, your emotional survival doesn't depend on him or her. Once you can accept this, you can seek out dependency more freely, not out of fear of being alone and needly.<P>For the pa to improve relationships, they needn't become less dependent, but need to learn to accept dependency as natural. <P>The struggle is how to get to that point. It can be a tight rope walk. To say "I love you" but you are an adult and can make your own decisions. <P>It is frustrating, because the person has to do a lot of inner work themselves....grow up so to speak. <P>Perhaps the key for you and your H is to show him admiration and affection. Appreciation for what he does for you, yet set boundaries for yourself. Using wording such as "this hurts...." "that offends me...." "I feel that......". I think tactful confrontation is the way to go.<P>

Interesting thoughts here! I am finally figuring out that my H is passive-aggressive too. I have also found out that I'm alot stronger person than he is - though I don't want to, I can make it on my own. He can't, because his main worry is that he will be alone. Hate to see what happens to him when the OW splits???? <P>I think your new strength is a good thing. H is obviously tired of neediness in OW. Keep it up!

In the book <I>How to Get Your Lover Back</I>, Blaise Harris differentiates need this way:<P>"I need you because I love you" as opposed to "I love you because I need you."<P>A very minor difference semantically, but MAJOR in relationship dynamics.<P>I need my husband because I love him. I don't need him because I cannot live without him. I don't need him because I have to have "someone" ... I love him.<P>I think that men enjoy knowing that you need to have them in your life. I think that there are times, however, when our needs do suffocate them. Unfortunately, I also think that some of that is "infidel-speak" -- similar to the phenomenon of the WS who only realizes that his marriage sucks after he becomes ensnared in an affair.<P>Neediness is when you cannot do anything without their help or approval. Needing related to loving doesn't limit what you can or cannot do, and what you will or will not do - you can live your life and accomplish things without them, you would just RATHER it be with them.<P>Have I muddied the waters on this one thoroughly enough now? LOL!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Allison<P>My h is also reactionary to my personality. I am a needy person too, though I am the dominant one in our relationship(not by my choice.) I like to be taken care of, etc, being the youngest child of my siblings, but he needed it even more than me. One of us had to be the adult. Parenthood saw to that.<P>When he ws starting to be depressed years ago, when I think he started pulling away, he sould not handle it. I needed him too much, I suffocated him! He felt guilty every time he left the house. then as i became stronger later, he still had the guilt even though I supported his activities(working out, etc.)<P>Then the kids got wild and he pulled away more, because he could not deal with them either. He ran away from us without even trying to call attention to his probs, or mine. <P>He found someone who was extremely needy for his affection and sex but was independant enough to have her own career in his occupation circle. She had not had someone in her life for some time(still working on a divorce), and I think she made the first move on him, but he really cannot remember--the passion took over to cloud that 1st betrayal. He never looked back--jerk!!!<P>I am getting mad again--

I've always known that my H needed me much more than I needed him. I'm a very independant person while he is very dependant. I have always been there for my H needs and there were alot of them. He still does count on me to do things for him even though he is now living with OW. I think that is his way of knowing that I still do care. I think these affairs he has had this past year has alot to do with his desire to be more independant. I think he really doesn't know who he is right now. I don't think though that going right from my bed to OW will help him become independant or let him find out just what it is he is searching for.<P>I hope you are having a better day today.<P>Hugs,<P><BR>Jill

Allison,<P>It sounds to me like it was not so much that she needed him as it was that she was 100% available when he needed her. He may have been all she had, but maybe she wasn't depending on him to do stuff for her but was doing thing to tend to his needs. It seems like the moment she did make a demand of hm, he ditched her. <P>Just a thought.<BR>

Hi allison,<P>I think you are correct. My H affair was with a womwn who has nothing. He is even letting her drive a explorer that is his even though he says they are done. until she can get something of her own. Well I did not have a good weekend with H read my post to get the latest.

My H is a bit of an oddity. I have come to believe that he primary need is NOT TO NEED, and his secondary need is NOT TO BE NEEDED. He is extremely self sufficient and he values self-sufficiently in others. He does, however, like to coach or train, and he seems to have a real gift for teaching others in his highly technical field or in one of his adventurous recreational pursuits. <P>While this makes it hard to establish intimacy, it does allow a certain freedom and true partnership.<P>He needs me to pretty much take care of myself and pursue my own dreams and not get in the way of his, although he really desires his whole family to join him in his activities or projects.<P>Now I don't know much about the OW in my H's brief affair (other than she truly was a brazen hussy), but H has said she had a hard adult life and some bad luck. Anyone else he probably would have said made poor choices. Although I think my H felt a little sorry for her, I think the fact that she immediately clung to him like a leach and "needed" him so much actually contributed to her rapid demise. He bolted, and although he felt guilty, because she was so broken up (after knowing him about a month) and thus continued some phone contact, her needs doused the flame before it had even started really burning.<P>Anyway, this needs thing is tough for me, too. If I suggest my "needs" to my H, that usually falls flat and it is difficult to find a need that actually fills my H's tank.<P>Still I think the best long term marriages are more like a letter H, rather than an A or an inverted V with one straight side (OK, use your imagination).<P>In the inverted V with one staight side, one person leans on another and long term that makes one partner "needy" and may wear out the other partner.<P>In an A, where both partners need each other, that is more equal, but long term may become a problem if one or the other becomes more "needy" and the other can not handle more of the load. Plus they my depend on each other to make one another happy. <P>An H marriage is when both partners can each take care of their own life and happiness, but their union gives each individual added strength.<P>What do you think?

FHL,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>An H marriage is when both partners can each take care of their own life and happiness, but their union gives each individual added strength.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I LIKE THAT!<P>

Why thank you, Truthseeker, I hope you are feeling a bit better!

Hi All,<BR> My H too easily feels somthered if I get too needy. It truly is a fine line. When I'm too independent, taking care of everything on my own then he feels like he's not important.<P>H's OW was a single mom struggling on her own,she was needy.But I think that that was not what H was after, he had his own 3 kids and wife who in reality did need him,despite of his perception of that need. What OW gave him was ADMIRATION and TONS of it. She made him feel like he was the most wonderful, caring man in the world, and to a depressed man, that felt pretty awesome.<P>What I missed was, that, while I was going about taking care of everything,I felt that I was the one who should be admired(probably rightfully should have been and wasn't due to numerous other variables)and I forgot/neglected to see that admiration was what my H needed most. I swear, sometimes I just laugh now at how much admiration he really does need.He literally basks in it.It can be the simplest statement from me....like " Oh honey, what do you want for dinner tonight,I'll make whatever you'd like, you are such a wonderful breadwinner!" It makes him feel so cared for and appreciated. In the center of my independence,I was guilty of feeling like "Oh sure,you've got to be kidding,fawn all over him like that when he doesn't even ever volunteer to help me with what I've got to do" You see, it was catch 22,as long as he didn't get the admiration,he felt unappreciated,thus he felt no need to go out of his way to help me out and the deadly poisonous resentment grew on both our parts and killed our love for one another. I tell you, it's no lie that I was just as ready to have an affair as he was, I simply had no opportunity. Our marriage was in a sad, sad state and we were both at fault. Breaking out of the pattern was what we needed to move forward,the A woke us up to where we were stuck.Luckily I had a H that was open to learning and humble enough to see his part in it and took his own steps to change it with me Plan Aing and changing myself.<P>I think it's great to tell our spouses we need them because we love them.We have to show it too,by admiring them verbally for all the little things they do and finding ways to make them feel special.I have my own eleventh commandment now...Thou shalt not take your spouse for granted.

Reading this post was like a lightbulb coming on to me. I thought I was the needy one, but really now I feel he is much more needy. He needs to feel masculine and the problem solver around the house sometimes. He also has a BIG need for admiration - which of course he got from younger, unattached OW. This awareness now makes me better equipped to make "deposits", something I had neglected before. However, on the downside, seeing him as needy I am sometimes fearful of doing too much on my own, like if I pursue my own interests too much or go out of town will he feel neglected and seek company? The balance between needy and meeting needs is difficult.

Allison:<P>I think you posted this issue or made reference to it on another of your posts.<P>I am wondering if your H is waiting on you to admit you need him so he can slide back in your life. If you openly admit to needing him, this takes him off the hook of trying to figure out a way to come back without his having to be the initiator. Maybe he feels embarrassed to ask to come back and is waiting on you to "need" him. You have proven to him now that you can and will be ok without him... I think that idea really scares them too, especially from those of us who have suffered from those needy panic attacks. <P>I also agree that sometimes they want us to appear needy, it boosts thier ego, but there is a fine line as to what is too needy.<P>I vote for telling him YES, you do need him. If this is what YOU want to feel complete in your life. I have noticed that several of us here question whether or not we truly want our WS back after all the thought provoking issues we've had to sift through.<P>I know our history and our children had a lot to do with my H coming back. That's ok, at least he was here, it took him a while to really be "here" but it opened the door for reconcilitation.<P>I'm probably way off subject at this time, I do tend to get lost and ramble. I wish I had the creative ideas or expressive abilities like so many here. Maybe I need to up my Prempro dosage.<P>One more thing, is your H the type to someday remind you that he came back because YOU NEEDED HIM? Will he hold that against you or use it to his advantage one day?<P>Love to all, Cathy

Oh boy,<P>What did I do?<P>I've been kind of a mess this last week, as you guys know...I lean on you all too hard. Well, as I wear my heart on my sleeve, I told H this morning just how hard all of this had been for me and left teary-eyed for work.<P>He called me, wants to talk about "scheduling" for the kids over the next few weeks, asked me for an appointment. What a joke.<P>And it began.<P>I let him have it. I am trying to remember all the Love Busters, but I don't have enough fingers and toes to count them all.<P>Damn it felt good.<P>I said it all, that he was destroying a wife and three children to find some sort of happiness that does not exist out there. Told him that no, we would not be ok ,,,until he was home...that he had left a mess for me to clean up.<P>He asked me if I wanted him to come home regardless of the way he feels about me.<P>I said...yep!<P>(gulp)<P>I said I want you to come home and look at me hard and find a piece of the woman you fell in love with. I asked him if he had absolutley no feelings left for me at all...after a long pause he said no, he couldn't say that.<P>He told me all I wanted was a built-in babysitter. I told him I had been that for him over the last several years, giving him the freedom to conduct a life that was filled with bad choices.<P>Well, we left the conversation civily...because he insisted we end it that way, and have our "appointment" for Thursday.<P>(gulp...again)<P>So guys, how badly did I blow it?<P>I love Plan A and will stay in it for ME, but damn it felt good to get some of that stuff off my chest after months of being good. It felt honest and clear.<P>thanks for listening<P>allison<BR>

Allison-<BR>I'm jumping in a little late here. It's a strange coincidence... Just last weekend, out of the blue, my H told me that he had been thinking about the time when we were dating (probably 15 years ago) that I told him that I wanted him in my life, but I didn't need him. I have no recollection of this conversation, so I don't know what was going on at the time- sounds like an arguement to me. Whenever he says something like this, I take it to mean that the OW is the opposite. He had no explanation as why he brought that up, so I still don't know what was going on in that head of his. Food for thought.<P>I don't think that you blew it at all. I know that from some of your previous posts that your H has been amazed at how you are handling this situation and his A. My H says the same thing. I often wonder if I don't really get angry if he truly understands the hurt and other emotions that I feel because of his A. I have really tried to be open and honest with him without LBing. Since this is a new approach for me, he doesn't quite know how to handle it. Does your H feel the same way? Your H may feel that he deserves some of what he got from you and may even be somewhat relieved to know just how much this is bothering you.<P>Keep us posted. And you do sound much better.

Oh Cloudy,<P>Thank you. I really needed some support on this one. You know, it really could backfire on me, but I don't care! I've been begging for someone to talk some sense into this man for months, and no one would...so I did.<P>Yeah, my H has told me many times how amazed he is with how I have handled this whole thing. It does not seem to have had the desired effect of making him fall madly in love with me though...LOL. I guess when they say Plan A is for us...thats kinda what it means. We know we can't control another, but at least we can handle ourselves with dignity.<P>And I did that tonight. I did not scream or swear. I was calm. I feel so much better, like...ok, I did what I needed to do, so be it.<P>Thanks Cloudy...you are always there for me.<P>allison

Although we can never be sure what we would do in any given situation, I think I would have done the same thing...especially if you think OW is not in the picture.<P>Hey, you are a person and your children are people. If he needs to here some hard truths, for their sake and for your marriages, then fine.<P>And if you feel better, then maybe you "knew" for whatever reason, it had to be done.